Can't do an open world? I'm not buying it

[Wolf Kanno]

I can agree that DQVIII (and I would add XII since its just a more graphical powerhouse version of the same setup) is pretty much what the standard should be. Amusingly, I find it interesting that Xenoblade and Last Story are often compared to FFXII in several factors including exploration. I think I could be happy with this set-up especially since DQVIII found a happy compromise of realistic world travel but a means to actually see a world map by implementing the old school style maps when you used the boat or flying bird. Though it would also work to bring in some of the old school jazz of other visual elements in the world. Wouldn't it be awesome to run across a field and watch a herd of chocobos stomp by or climb a mountain and witness an airship descending from the clouds to the city you passed below. I'm still really pissed that VIII and IX were introducing elements like this into their games and they have all but been dropped.

[Bolivar]

I agree with Flying Arrow that DQVIII is where the medium should be at today. I totally agree with the sentiment that it looks exactly how your imagination would have fully realized the worlds represented by tile sets and sprites on the NES. It was kinda the advent of everything JRPGs could have become with no substantial place to go after that.

I also agree with Wolf that FFXII was the same way. Even on the first playthrough, when I disliked the game, I did at least realize that it showed the direction JRPGs should have headed. The fact that we were wrong is a very lamentable occurrence, but I'm glad some Japanese devs got the message; I love me some White Knight Chronicles

I don't really agree with this because I feel the transition with set cameras is just as noticeable because you'll be walking around in the dungeon and then suddenly the controller stops responding, so you suddenly realize that you're transitioning and you watch as it pans out.

I doubt you really believe it's "just as noticeable." The absence of the same perspective from gameplay, which is very rarely seamless at that, is an additional factor beyond lack of controller input and presentation of dialogue. It's an additional factor, so it's an obvious logical misstep to claim it's "just as noticeable."

Also, camera control is lost with dramatic set pieces, which is the crown jewel of modern game design, another element introduced by FFVII. The loss of control becomes very noticeable in these very intense scenes, whereas in games with fixed cameras, there is no transition.

[Wolf Kanno]

I don't really agree with this because I feel the transition with set cameras is just as noticeable because you'll be walking around in the dungeon and then suddenly the controller stops responding, so you suddenly realize that you're transitioning and you watch as it pans out.

I doubt you really believe it's "just as noticeable." The absence of the same perspective from gameplay, which is very rarely seamless at that, is an additional factor beyond lack of controller input and presentation of dialogue. It's an additional factor, so it's an obvious logical misstep to claim it's "just as noticeable."

Also, camera control is lost with dramatic set pieces, which is the crown jewel of modern game design, another element introduced by FFVII. The loss of control becomes very noticeable in these very intense scenes, whereas in games with fixed cameras, there is no transition.

I find it amusing you think you know what I notice and what I don't but, you forget that most dialogue scenes of games like VII-IX usually begin with a camera change when you enter a new screen, like when you go into the elevators in VII or how often dialogue sequences usually take place at the beginning of a new location or at the end. So in a way, the fixed camera serves nothing more than as a tool for viewing the dungeons. I feel your argument is moot because its rare for a JRPG not to pull this, because very few games have dialogue scenes in the middle of dungeons unless something happens that makes it warrant being there, like entering a room where the switch is, or the magic artifact, or a boss. Or hell, like in VIII when you're being chased by the spider mech and everytime you enter a new area, you're party and the mech start in a neutral position once the map loads, as though they are taking cigarette breaks between loading screens and now you have to push forward to start moving again cause it doesn't register it all the time if you just hold it down. So technically these games really didn't bring in seamless camera work, of anything, the old 16-bit games did this all the time but we can chalk that all up o having to view everything from one angle due to tech limitations. I also don't necessarily feel the fixed camera/pre-rendered backgrounds did wonders for dungeon design because I honestly feel dungeon design in these games began to weaken in favor of just showing off visual locales.

This eventually devolved into what we are seeing in FFX and XIII with uninspired level design with eye candy wallpaper, instead of having the locations actually be memorable for themselves. So your" crowing jewel of modern game design" eventually turned into pretty colored glass instead of something that actually brought anything meaningful into game design, all it really did was segregate game and story from each other more. Even then, 95% of VII's locales are from a 3/4th angle or side perspective, so I don't know what you're smoking when you talk about how wonderful it was and how much it changed everything, especially since it wasn't exactly new in gaming either.

My real issue here, is that I don't really feel that the story part needs the bells and whistles of Hollywood movie magic to make it interesting, if the plot is good, the characters are likable, and the visuals and music fit the mood, then I don't need the dungeons and cutscenes to get the Stanley Kubrick treatment. I just started playing the demo for Type-0/Agito and one of the most visually impressive things it has done is a part at the beginning of the demo where my party rounded a corner and in the distance I saw two military trucks drive towards us, come to a stop somewhat far away and watch a platoon of enemy units get out to fire upon us, all while I was running towards it. If this had been any been the 16-bit/PSX era, the party would have stopped moving to watch the trucks come towards us and probably comment on it, had it been the PS2 era, the game would have stopped and loaded in a hi-res cutscene with the vehicles coming towards us in a fury and possibly watch my party dodge getting run over, all the while the game zooming in on close-ups and camera angles and making a big deal out of this group of guys with guns coming out is going to kick my ass but are unaware they are the games Imps. There has been some seriously cool visual effects with the enemies in this game, it is seamless but hampered by an awful camera and lack of a decent target system, but otherwise it was something simple but still created a great story moment as we busted into the town and created a real sense of the situation and all with a boring over the shoulder camera.

Despite all this, I don't necessarily feel that a fixed story camera is always a bad idea, but I just don't believe its as important, or as impressive as you give it. Of anything, I argue it should be used sparingly to maximize certain moments but not be overused cause not all elements in a game should be created to support just the plot. Wasn't that the lesson Xenogears taught you? Some of the most visually stunning sequences I've seen in games were ones with a movable camera but still it was done so well it was hard to move the camera and mess it up, like Team Ico's games.

[Rostum]

The thing I love about static cameras (I say this as in non-player controlled, not completely static) is the fact that the developer can present emotion, mood and story telling just from the position and angle of the camera itself; even if it's just the character's being further away from the camera, or closer, it'll bring a different feel to the scene. Just like how it works in cinematography and pretty much any creative medium that requires composition.

I'm not saying Final Fantasy has perfected that art in any of their games outside of cinematics, but it's definitely something that developers should try and explore in role playing games. i.e. Delivering the player with something extra outside of dialogue and character movement.

As far as actual gameplay goes, well I don't really have a solid opinion on the matter. From a development point of view third person camera's are extremely hard to get right and it's not like all developers share their secrets, especially if they do get it right. I never had an issue with FFXII's, and the only issue I had with FFXIII's was that it was made difficult if I wanted to look at a certain part of the scenery.

Edit: Just to make things clear, when I talk about static camera's in 3D games (i.e. Not pre-rendered backgrounds) I am more or less saying the player doesn't control or fully-control the camera but the camera will move in to position as the character is moved. Similar to some bits of Final Fantasy X.

[Flying Arrow]

^ One of the things I love about VII is how the camera pulls way back in certain screens to give you a sense of scale. Things like Mt. Nibel, Gaea's Cliffs, or the Northern Crater really do a great job visually presenting the idea that Cloud and crew are very, very small on the planet. In a game that involves a literal circle of life, a Lovecraftian alien from some unknown corner of the cosmos, and a meteor hanging oppressively in the sky, I'm willing to bet that the directors and artists really knew what this story was about and went to every length to impress it upon the player.

[Bolivar]

I find it amusing you think you know what I notice and what I don't but, you forget that most dialogue scenes of games like VII-IX usually begin with a camera change when you enter a new screen, like when you go into the elevators in VII or how often dialogue sequences usually take place at the beginning of a new location or at the end.

... what? When the dialogue is at the beginning of a level, there is no visual transition when you go back into the gameplay. When the dialogue is at the end of the level, there is no visual transition when the text starts coming. With free camera, there is virtually always a visual transition. Hence you claiming it to be "just as noticeable" is untenable when there's obviously an additional, visual factor on top of the dialogue and lack of controller input.

Even then, 95% of VII's locales are from a 3/4th angle or side perspective, so I don't know what you're smoking when you talk about how wonderful it was and how much it changed everything

Then I refer you to Flying Arrow and Rostum's last posts for elaboration on the point and you can go after them instead .

Of anything, I argue it should be used sparingly to maximize certain moments but not be overused cause not all elements in a game should be created to support just the plot. Wasn't that the lesson Xenogears taught you?

Xenogears taught me that gameplay doesn't matter. It just doesn't. You can have a pure gameplay experience such as, say, Gears of War, that does everything of its genre right in an unbelievably polished way, introducing a few innovations of its own, and even going as far as to point where gaming itself is headed over the next few years. But a game like Xenogears, with a humongous cast, various intruiging plot threads, intelligent writing and translation, an attempt at a few themes, powerful visual images, and phenomenal music scoring those scenes... it simply isn't going to matter that the latter game also has unpolished battle design, a shallow combat system, uninspired puzzles, TERRIBLE platforming, boring encounters, scripted bosses, and monotonously repetitive dungeons that have had noticeably little effort put into them. Xenogears is an incredible story inside a terrible video game, but it will always be more memorable and have a stronger impact on me than even the perfect gameplay experience ever could.

I'm just glad I'm at the final dungeon so I can go back to Valkyria Chronicles II

[Wolf Kanno]

^ One of the things I love about VII is how the camera pulls way back in certain screens to give you a sense of scale. Things like Mt. Nibel, Gaea's Cliffs, or the Northern Crater really do a great job visually presenting the idea that Cloud and crew are very, very small on the planet. In a game that involves a literal circle of life, a Lovecraftian alien from some unknown corner of the cosmos, and a meteor hanging oppressively in the sky, I'm willing to bet that the directors and artists really knew what this story was about and went to every length to impress it upon the player.

You see, I just never really saw it as a big deal and I have never felt like pulling the camera back did anything for those places. Of anything, I just felt it was more of a cheap way to cover up how rather boring they were but then again, FF really never did do mountain dungeons well if you ask me.

As for Rostum's example, I would be more impressed if the scene in question was relevant and not just Sephy throwing a piece of materia at Cloud and flying off. Whatever tension it had is lost by how silly it is executed. Out of context I can agree but the problem here is that it doesn't address the issue of its practicality for the game side of an RPG. the Fixed camera/pre-render set-up is solely for storytelling and pretty much limits what is capable for the dungeon itself. If a cutscene hadn't taken place at that scene, then that would not only be a weird angle for a part of a dungeon you're just casually walking through, but also boring for level design cause its simply a straight path with no gameplay purpose. That's my issue here, its aesthetic strengths only serve to help one side of the game. While I can agree that its an effective tool for creating visual stimuli, I can't agree its practical for gameplay or making a dungeon fun to play through. If you really think about it, some of the best dungeons in VII like the Shin-Ra building are presented to you in a visual format similar to a 16-bit RPG with an overhead 3/4th angle view that often shown more than the character in question could see.

... what? When the dialogue is at the beginning of a level, there is no visual transition when you go back into the gameplay. When the dialogue is at the end of the level, there is no visual transition when the text starts coming. With free camera, there is virtually always a visual transition. Hence you claiming it to be "just as noticeable" is untenable when there's obviously an additional, visual factor on top of the dialogue and lack of controller input.

The problem is, you are talking about a technique that existed in the old days of RPGs cause everything utilized the in-game engine. There was no need for transition, but here's the real issue, we've gone so long with transitions into better higher quality cinematic cutscenes and dialogue sets for ten years, I seriously doubt the transition issue is something that bothers players anymore, hell most would expect it, suddenly going back to an old school approach seems weird.

I think this all comes from playing DQV cause I get thrown off when the game moves out of my control, but I don't witness a transition. It has been so long since I played a game that relied solely on its in-game engine and map layout to tell a story that its a bit jarring to play something relatively new to me that does it like the old days. It doesn't help that I tap buttons when I stop moving and accidentally skip some dialogue either... I think I had a simlar issue with the opening of MGS4 cause while the transition from cutscene to game is smooth it doesn't work as well the other way around.

With the way modern media presents story telling through film and television through fast paced cut-aways and quick transitions, I feel that the issue of total visual transition is a moot argument with today's media crowd. I feel only when the game does it obnoxiously so, like FFX or XIII where you can't walk three yards without instigating a cutscene does it become even noticeable to me. I still find it hard to believe you would criticize FFX, XII, and XIII because they transitioned from gameplay to story with a total visual and non-interactive transitioned. I would assume you would say its normal and kind of silly to argue that its detrimental to a gaming experience when its been the norm since the PSX days.

Of anything, I argue it should be used sparingly to maximize certain moments but not be overused cause not all elements in a game should be created to support just the plot. Wasn't that the lesson Xenogears taught you?

Xenogears taught me that gameplay doesn't matter. It just doesn't. You can have a pure gameplay experience such as, say, Gears of War, that does everything of its genre right in an unbelievably polished way, introducing a few innovations of its own, and even going as far as to point where gaming itself is headed over the next few years. But a game like Xenogears, with a humongous cast, various intruiging plot threads, intelligent writing and translation, an attempt at a few themes, powerful visual images, and phenomenal music scoring those scenes... it simply isn't going to matter that the latter game also has unpolished battle design, a shallow combat system, uninspired puzzles, TERRIBLE platforming, boring encounters, scripted bosses, and monotonously repetitive dungeons that have had noticeably little effort put into them. Xenogears is an incredible story inside a terrible video game, but it will always be more memorable and have a stronger impact on me than even the perfect gameplay experience ever could.

I'm just glad I'm at the final dungeon so I can go back to Valkyria Chronicles II [/QUOTE]

A great plot will allow you to forgive so many issues, unfortunately for me, Valkyria Chronicles has kind of shown me the opposite is true. A game can have a great and innovative gameplay experience that is fun and inventive to play through, but come across as an unplayable mess with the most boring generic plot based off every single war anime cliche in the book, filled with an unrealistic cast of characters who would be more at home in a comedic anime than a hard military tale and the game has the most insufferable layout for moving the plot along, when the main menu feels like you're in a debug room you know someone wasn't trying. I still haven't finished VC because the plot is so bad.

Yet my point in all this is that don't you feel Xenogears would be a greater game if it had the gameplay to back it up for you? Doesn't it seem silly to build a game with the story as the main form of entertainment and the game part just acts like some kind of irrelevant padding? Shouldn't a game strive to do well on both spectrum's of the entertainment wheel instead of putting all their bets on one facet of the experience? Going back to my original argument about using the camera solely as a cinematic tool, doesn't that seem like it limits the game cause the dungeon has to be more about the visual appeal rather than being designed for the portion of the game about the player interacting with the world? The cinematic camera has its place in story portions but it really doesn't bring anything to dungeon design that great visuals and good music can't already provide.

The Magitek Factory in FFVI throws the player off with a visual steampunk display that has not been seen anywhere else in the game. It is accompanied by one of the most sinister themes in the game that utilizes percussion instruments to further push the idea of an industrial nightmare, but it also is a an engaging dungeon to play through because it has several secret rooms and locations to find, it utilizes minor switch elements to access different parts of the level through lifts, allows you to travel through pipes, you the player can't quite make out where its going, and conveyor belts that lead to whole new section of the dungeons you didn't even realize were there. Its Escher style layout is what makes it one of the more fun dungeons to playthrough in VI, not because the atmosphere is great, its backed up by some fun design as well. VII does have dungeons like this but even you would have to agree they are not exactly the most visually stunning designs that took full advantage of any cinematic camera like the Sector 4 underpass that lead to the Sector 5 Reactor, which amounted to several ladders, pipes, and metal stairways. It was still fun trying to get to far off items and being turned around though, and I feel that is more important than it being visually stunning.

[Bolivar]

I think this all comes from playing DQV

Arguably the greatest RPG of all time.

Of anything, I argue it should be used sparingly to maximize certain moments but not be overused cause not all elements in a game should be created to support just the plot. Wasn't that the lesson Xenogears taught you?

A great plot will allow you to forgive so many issues, unfortunately for me, Valkyria Chronicles has kind of shown me the opposite is true. A game can have a great and innovative gameplay experience that is fun and inventive to play through, but come across as an unplayable mess with the most boring generic plot based off every single war anime cliche in the book, filled with an unrealistic cast of characters who would be more at home in a comedic anime than a hard military tale and the game has the most insufferable layout for moving the plot along, when the main menu feels like you're in a debug room you know someone wasn't trying. I still haven't finished VC because the plot is so bad.

What chapter are you on? Because, as much as I praise the game, I was the EXACT same way. I looked so forward to the game, as a SEGA SRPG with a cool visual, but was continuously let down until one thing happened in the plot and I realized just how serious this game was all along. So many games, like FFVI, Chrono Trigger, and Xenogears, were major let downs for me after how much other RPG heads praised it. I always loathed that "you need to get further in the game!!!" mentality. Until I played Valkyria Chronicles. Now, I honestly believe it's one of the top 5 best games of this generation, a game that truly revolutionized its genre (or sub-genre) and easily one of my favorite games of all time. I can't wait to get back to it!!!

Shouldn't a game strive to do well on both spectrum's of the entertainment wheel instead of putting all their bets on one facet of the experience?

Yes, and that's why Tactics Ogre is probably the greatest game I've ever played. But that's not the reality we live in and 99.9998123778899% of video games can't do both, much less provide as much content at that level that that game did...

The Magitek Factory in FFVI throws the player off with a visual steampunk display that has not been seen anywhere else in the game. It is accompanied by one of the most sinister themes in the game that utilizes percussion instruments to further push the idea of an industrial nightmare, but it also is a an engaging dungeon to play through because it has several secret rooms and locations to find, it utilizes minor switch elements to access different parts of the level through lifts, allows you to travel through pipes, you the player can't quite make out where its going, and conveyor belts that lead to whole new section of the dungeons you didn't even realize were there. Its Escher style layout is what makes it one of the more fun dungeons to playthrough in VI, not because the atmosphere is great, its backed up by some fun design as well.

Least favorite part of the game. More thought out response incoming once I've sobered up.

[Wolf Kanno]

I think this all comes from playing DQV

Arguably the greatest RPG of all time.

It started out good but its finally devolving into normal DQ fare which is fine but I actually liked how un-DQ the game is at first.

What chapter are you on? Because, as much as I praise the game, I was the EXACT same way. I looked so forward to the game, as a SEGA SRPG with a cool visual, but was continuously let down until one thing happened in the plot and I realized just how serious this game was all along. So many games, like FFVI, Chrono Trigger, and Xenogears, were major let downs for me after how much other RPG heads praised it. I always loathed that "you need to get further in the game!!!" mentality. Until I played Valkyria Chronicles. Now, I honestly believe it's one of the top 5 best games of this generation, a game that truly revolutionized its genre (or sub-genre) and easily one of my favorite games of all time. I can't wait to get back to it!!!

You need to stop getting suckered in by the hype It doesn't help that you're playing many of these games fifteen years after they were released. I doubt you would think favorably of FFVII as much if you played it now instead of when it came out.

I can't tell you what chapter I'm in, either 4 or maybe chapter 6. Its been that long since I've mustered the stomach to play through it's awful story campaign. Personally, I feel if any story or game has to wait until its halfway through to finally get to the "good part of the story" that's more of a detriment to its design than some kind of incentive to keep going.

Shouldn't a game strive to do well on both spectrum's of the entertainment wheel instead of putting all their bets on one facet of the experience?

Yes, and that's why Tactics Ogre is probably the greatest game I've ever played. But that's not the reality we live in and 99.9998123778899% of video games can't do both, much less provide as much content at that level that that game did...

My question is why not? Shouldn't games strive to be the best they can be, instead of putting all their eggs into one basket?

Least favorite part of the game. More thought out response incoming once I've sobered up.

I'll save you the trouble cause the idea you don't like that dungeon is so foreign to me that my mind wouldn't be able to grasp anything you write about how its bad beyond you just yammering away in some nonsensical fi. I'm not going even going to try to meet you half way cause that's how utterly wrong I feel your statement is so just drink up and play more VCII and save us all some time.

[Mirage]

I can't tell you what chapter I'm in, either 4 or maybe chapter 6. Its been that long since I've mustered the stomach to play through it's awful story campaign. Personally, I feel if any story or game has to wait until its halfway through to finally get to the "good part of the story" that's more of a detriment to its design than some kind of incentive to keep going.

You mean almost like Xenogears?!

[Bolivar]

Playing games 15 years later has nothing to do with it. I played 1/3-1/2 of the way through Dragon Quest V on an SNES emulator and I was almost more blown away by it than I was when I later got my DS copy.

And I wouldn't say the "story gets good," I just think it's at a certain part that you realize that all along they were showing you all the different aspects of war. And it may sound like putting the cart before the horse, but when you get attached to the characters, it makes everything so awesome and heart felt. The game trickles it down slowly but you really get into these characters lives and see what makes them tick what they regret, what they hope for. They're really well defined. The villains are also really awesome in their own ways, even the ones that you don't love to hate, you just hate.

But what makes it incredible, as with other games, is the presentation. The visual style was commendably executed and Sakimoto gave a great score. He's one of my favorite composers anyway, so maybe I'm biased.

Not sure what to say on Magitec factory. FFVI actually has some of my favorite dungeons in the series, so the fact that I don't rate it particularly highly must mean something. I seem to remember it was something I just wish would end. Wasn't that the one that ended with the railway cart (not train) first person thing? That was awkward. Definitely one of the risks they took in that game that just didn't pay off.

I can't tell you what chapter I'm in, either 4 or maybe chapter 6. Its been that long since I've mustered the stomach to play through it's awful story campaign. Personally, I feel if any story or game has to wait until its halfway through to finally get to the "good part of the story" that's more of a detriment to its design than some kind of incentive to keep going.

You mean almost like Xenogears?!

I CAN'T BELIEVE I AM NOT ALONE IN THIS!!! THANK YOU MIRAGE!

[Wolf Kanno]

Playing games 15 years later has nothing to do with it. I played 1/3-1/2 of the way through Dragon Quest V on an SNES emulator and I was almost more blown away by it than I was when I later got my DS copy.

You are also forgetting the hype factor though, I seriously doubt anyone kept telling you to play the first six DQ games cause they were "the greatest games of all time" and revolutionized the industry" so I'm betting you didn't go into any of them with any real expectations, like you would have with Chrono Trigger, FFVI, and Xenogears, of which all three you've known for years and listen to fanboys drone on and on about. Throw in your bias for the PSX generation which you've stated time and time again is when you felt "RPGs came into their own" and I find it hard to swallow you could enjoy those games for what they really were without some bias and chip on your shoulder.

So far for me, I felt the game started off strong but once you fix up Harry's issue in his kingdom, I kind of feel like I've just been dropped from any plot and now I am meandering around until something happens like most DQ games. Its bringing back what I felt was the weaker aspects of DQIV (which is tied with DQII as my least favorite), where anything exciting in the game kind of dies when you get to the Hero's chapter.

And I wouldn't say the "story gets good," I just think it's at a certain part that you realize that all along they were showing you all the different aspects of war. And it may sound like putting the cart before the horse, but when you get attached to the characters, it makes everything so awesome and heart felt. The game trickles it down slowly but you really get into these characters lives and see what makes them tick what they regret, what they hope for. They're really well defined. The villains are also really awesome in their own ways, even the ones that you don't love to hate, you just hate.

So far I feel like I'm playing Gundam set in a fictional WWII setting with tanks instead of mobile suits, and its not even some of the better Gundams, its the overrated UC Timeline stuff. As I said, its just overusing all the "war is hell" nonsense you see in any anime based in war. It's hard to get into it all when you've got this huge wave of deja vu coming over you every new story bit.

I just got past the point where the main guy made a bet with his two lackeys about winning a battle so they will accept his "sister" with her ethnic background. I'm already guessing at some point either her or the other main chick is going to be used in an experiment to make a weapon that will turn the tide of battle and its going to all be connected to that McGuffan resource everyone is fighting for. The higher ups seem like those types of assholes and I'm still waiting for the blue haired chick to show up with all her superpowers, so I'm guessing she's probably when the super soldier element is kicking in.

But what makes it incredible, as with other games, is the presentation. The visual style was commendably executed and Sakimoto gave a great score. He's one of my favorite composers anyway, so maybe I'm biased.

This is actually one of the reasons why I'm disappointed with the story and cast so far cause I do like the music and visuals of the game, and I just don't feel like they are being done justice. Though I am sad how much the game likes to use head shots for dialogue. You make a gorgeous art style and 70% of the dialogue is spoken through a simple head shot, you might as well had just used artwork stills like Nippon Ichi titles.

Not sure what to say on Magitec factory. FFVI actually has some of my favorite dungeons in the series, so the fact that I don't rate it particularly highly must mean something. I seem to remember it was something I just wish would end. Wasn't that the one that ended with the railway cart (not train) first person thing? That was awkward. Definitely one of the risks they took in that game that just didn't pay off.

I disagree about it not paying off, was it awkward? Yeah I can agree and age certainly hasn't done it any favors but I felt the same way about the motorcycle chase in VII, which is my least favorite part of the Midgard section. I feel it was something new and exciting for its time, RPGs really never tried to pull stuff like that before (it is the only game) and even if it was cheesy I felt it worked well to build up tension and excitement with the story. I find it odd, that for someone who has spent the last couple of posts debating about the "groundbreaking effects" of changing a camera a little to add more cinematic touch into a RPG that something similar attempted in a 16-bit game gets an "it was awful and never should have been done". It just seems kind of hypocritical to me.

I can't tell you what chapter I'm in, either 4 or maybe chapter 6. Its been that long since I've mustered the stomach to play through it's awful story campaign. Personally, I feel if any story or game has to wait until its halfway through to finally get to the "good part of the story" that's more of a detriment to its design than some kind of incentive to keep going.

You mean almost like Xenogears?!

I CAN'T BELIEVE I AM NOT ALONE IN THIS!!! THANK YOU MIRAGE!

You both have pretty much destroyed any credibility on taste in gaming for me.

[Bolivar]

You are also forgetting the hype factor though, I seriously doubt anyone kept telling you to play the first six DQ games cause they were "the greatest games of all time" and revolutionized the industry" so I'm betting you didn't go into any of them with any real expectations, like you would have with Chrono Trigger, FFVI, and Xenogears, of which all three you've known for years and listen to fanboys drone on and on about. Throw in your bias for the PSX generation which you've stated time and time again is when you felt "RPGs came into their own" and I find it hard to swallow you could enjoy those games for what they really were without some bias and chip on your shoulder.

1) Yes, a lot of people on this site claimed DQV was the best in the series, and I've heard from various places about the innovations it brought to storytelling, and 2) I liked Chrono Trigger, I liked FFVI, hell, there were a lot of things I loved about Xenogears. If anything, I felt a giddy feeling of getting to start a magical gem that's widely acclaimed. Unfortunately, those games don't start off as awesome as the games people claim they're better than, nor do they surpass them once things get going. Was there somewhat of a chip? Yeah, but that's only because of how caustic and delusional their fan bases are.

And look, I'm not gonna convince you to like Valkyria Chronicles. But I'm telling you for a fact I spent a good chunk into it completely underwhelmed like you, until it just clicked. At least the gameplay's good in the beginning and only gets crazier later on, whereas Xenogears' gameplay sucks in the beginning, and is just as titty once they start delving more into the plot.

I disagree about it not paying off, was it awkward? Yeah I can agree and age certainly hasn't done it any favors but I felt the same way about the motorcycle chase in VII, which is my least favorite part of the Midgard section. I feel it was something new and exciting for its time, RPGs really never tried to pull stuff like that before (it is the only game) and even if it was cheesy I felt it worked well to build up tension and excitement with the story. I find it odd, that for someone who has spent the last couple of posts debating about the "groundbreaking effects" of changing a camera a little to add more cinematic touch into a RPG that something similar attempted in a 16-bit game gets an "it was awful and never should have been done". It just seems kind of hypocritical to me.

It definitely wasn't the first, off the top of my head I can think of FFIV showing you going into (SPOILER)outer space in first person. The problem was the screen became smaller and it was so repetitive, it's almost hard to understand what it is you're actually looking at. Because it was the same static graphic repeated billions of times, there's no perspective of distance, either. It's the complete opposite of the bike chase scene, which, putting an entirely different game inside of an RPG and incorporating it into the story (instead of a mini-game that manipulates the existing engine), was pretty impressive for its time.

You both have pretty much destroyed any credibility on taste in gaming for me.

(Me & Mirage --->)

Beat it last night and it's just not all that, dude. Unless you're someone who has completely given up on the prospect of JRPGs having worthwhile gameplay, I can't see why it's rated as high as it is. Us tearing apart eachother's favorite stories is one thing, but when a game has so many demonstrable flaws in its design and implementation, it's hard to see why it's gotten such a reputation. Even then, it's story isn't substantially deeper than, say, Final Fantasy X.

[Mirage]

I don't always agree with Bolivar

But when I do, I usually talk about Xenogears


And if you seriously think liking Xenogears is paramount to having a good taste on games, well then you just lost all gaming credibility in my eyes :>.

[Raian the Fallen]

You know, I've never had a problem with games that are linear. In games with more freedom, I always did the story related things first, then took all the sidequests after, since I was so engrossed in the story.