I have a theory about Ultimecia... (Major Spoilers)

[Felixrush]

First of all, I'd like to state that yes, I know it's been done before, and yes I know about the Ultimania. However, I'd like to point out two things.

1.) If the Ultimania was created by Tetsuya Nomura then I shall refuse to believe any information from it. Tetsuya Nomura didn't write the story of FF8. He only did the artwork. Apart from that, He can't write his way out of a paper bag. The proof is Kingdom Hearts. Quite frankly, I consider anything that man has written as invalid.

2.) This is not about 'alternate dimensions' or a discussion about how paradoxes make no sense or whatnot. This is a video game we're discussing not a religion or real life events. Let's keep it that way. The title of the series isn't called Final Fantasy for no reason.

anyway, you're free to call this bogus for whatever reasons but I do believe in the Rinoa = Ultimecia idea but I disagree in exactly how it happened. It's long though so if you don't care enough to read my long in-depth video game nerd explanations then don't bother.

Here is my theory:

Rinoa gains Edea's powers through transfer in Disc 1, in Disc 2 the player learns that most of the cast have lost their memories of the orphanage they grew-up in because of their use of GFs, Disc 3 we discover that Rinoa survives in her space suit because the ring Squall gave her (Griever GF inside), in Disc 4 Adel junctions Rinoa into her and after the fight Rinoa gains Adel's memories as a young sorceress. She specifically mentions this after that fight.

In the final fight, Ultimecia summons Griever, before that she speaks in the same fashion Adel did, and her and Adel's designs are parallel. Ultimecia wanted to 'change a certain event' in the past and that event happened before Squall's journey with Rinoa at the age of 17 since she was going to use Ellone to go back further into the past.

Now, since Griever is the strongest GF it could mean that it makes people lose their memories faster (this is speculation, feel free to call me an idiot here). Rinoa always had it on her after disc 2. Therefore, her memories could've been wiped away... and then all she would remember is being Adel.

Their dress style (look at Adel and Ultimecia side to side to see the similarities) and their speech are the same. The 'certain event' that Ultimecia wanted to change using Ellone was Adel being sealed by Laguna (in Ultimecia's mind, it would be herself being sealed by Laguna even though that's untrue), and after that was taking far too long she used herself(Rinoa) from the past (whom she thinks of as some nameless pawn) to unseal Adel. She wanted to time compress so that only Adel would exist as to get back at those who 'wronged' her (Adel) and she wouldn't have to deal with SeeD in the future.

Anyway, that's what I got from the plot. I'm not gonna argue about alternate dimensions, or how stupid paradoxes are (I actually liked this game's paradoxes such as Squall meeting his younger self).

If some Ultimania written by someone who didn't even write the story of FF8 and made Kingdom Hearts disagrees then that's fine. If you're offended that I'm speaking ill of Kingdom Hearts then that's fine. I apologize as well for my outspoken behavior.

Well, that's my theory. The game wasn't about alternate dimensions or paradoxes or whatever. I keep the game in context with the events of the story. Unlike the absurd 'Squall is dead' theory, which has no real proof besides some stab wound even though we see them dreaming of people in the past and Rinoa falling for Squall as early as disc 1. If anything, it makes perfect sense for Ultimecia to torture SeeD people because they've been a thorn on her side for years. I'd also like to point out that Doc Odine is speculating in regards to Ultimecia's birth in the future and even his time machine idea. He doesn't know for sure who or what Ultimecia the sorceress is, he is merely speculating given the information he has on her through his research and possibly to stroke his own ego.

[Carl the Llama]

Interesting theory, but I disagree, for a start, you claim that Squall's ring was the summon itself, but I beg to differ, if squall had this GF then why did he not use it during the game?

Secondly I would like to point out that Ultimercia is from the distant future, the game itself states this.

Thirdly, when Squall and Co go to Trabia, didn't they agree to keep a diary or some such? coupled with the fact that they are all seen through the camcorder at the final scene, Squall and Rinoa are together... hell, Ultimercia could even be a descendant of Squall and Rinoa's progeny (now waits for Seraphy to pounce on the idea).

Fourthly, why would Rinoa a girl who claims she feels like she gets left behind when the others have a focus, suddenly completely change from being kind and gentle to being ruthless and merciless, even if the Griever had wiped her memories out (which incidentally would also have wiped out the infected memories from Adell's childhood) she would still have the same personality as proven by the fact that Squall and Seifer are always at each others throats.

And finally the nail in the coffin for me is this: if Rinoa is Ultimercia and she lost her memories because she had Griever junctioned all this time, then why did she announce that she was going to junction Griever "unto herself" half way through the fight? wouldn't it make more sense to have this creature junctioned all the time so she can destory all the "kursed SeeD's".

[Jessweeee♪]

I've always felt that the events in FFVIII are always how things happened. There was no changing time. Since Squall & Co. had fought and defeated her knowing she was from the future, everyone just kept an eye out for that big bad Ultimecia that would inevitably come into existence. And so she was persecuted before she had a chance to do anything wrong. So she was just like "what you want Ultimecia, well fine then you get Ultimecia " She was just an ordinary woman who became a sorceress during an era where they were more feared and hated than ever.

But that's just my opinion.

[Wolf Kanno]

I have good news and bad news for you. Nomura didn't write the Ultimania, but... Kazushige Nojima, the scenario writer for FFVIII, also happens to be the scenario writer for the Kingdom Hearts games. Take with that, what you will.

Anyway... to tell you the truth, while I can't say much about the original FFVIII Ultimania, the FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 1: Character Guide does have a few things to say about Ultimecia, but I'm afraid it is very little. For the most part, it just states what the game presented, Ultimecia is an evil Sorceress from the future, who possessed modern day witches so she can find Ellone and instigate Time Compression so she can live as a god. Here's a link to a wonderful translation by Squall_of_SeeD from theLifestream.net.

It should be interesting to note, that he also stumbled upon the fact that the Japanese version of Edea's speech in Deling is quite different, and gives a pretty nasty blow to the theory Ultimecia was driven mad through persecution in her time, which the English translation gives the impression of. Her Japanese speech is more general and mocking about the type of stories humans tell themselves to make them feel better.

The Ultimania basically states that Ultimecia's goal was to get Ellone, so she can travel farther into the past, in order to cast the spell for Time Compression. Rinoa also, never said she had Adel's memories, she only stated that after Ellone took both her and Ultimecia farther into the past (which was part of Laguna and Dr. Odine's plan) she simply stated her consciousness was sent back to a young Adel's body.

Rinoa: I...was inside Adel... The young Adel...

</pre>There is no mention of having her memories. Griever also never existed as a Guardian Force, until Ultimecia created it from Squall's mind in the final battle. Pretty much like how Gozer created the StayPuff Marshmallow Man from Vankmen's head in Ghostbusters 1. I'm afraid I can't agree with your theory.

[Felixrush]

Interesting theory, but I disagree, for a start, you claim that Squall's ring was the summon itself, but I beg to differ, if squall had this GF then why did he not use it during the game?

Secondly I would like to point out that Ultimercia is from the distant future, the game itself states this.

Thirdly, when Squall and Co go to Trabia, didn't they agree to keep a diary or some such? coupled with the fact that they are all seen through the camcorder at the final scene, Squall and Rinoa are together... hell, Ultimercia could even be a descendant of Squall and Rinoa's progeny (now waits for Seraphy to pounce on the idea).

Fourthly, why would Rinoa a girl who claims she feels like she gets left behind when the others have a focus, suddenly completely change from being kind and gentle to being ruthless and merciless, even if the Griever had wiped her memories out (which incidentally would also have wiped out the infected memories from Adell's childhood) she would still have the same personality as proven by the fact that Squall and Seifer are always at each others throats.

And finally the nail in the coffin for me is this: if Rinoa is Ultimercia and she lost her memories because she had Griever junctioned all this time, then why did she announce that she was going to junction Griever "unto herself" half way through the fight? wouldn't it make more sense to have this creature junctioned all the time so she can destory all the "kursed SeeD's".

It could be for the same reason as Solom Ring. He may not have had the right materials and he may not have realized it was a summon. Regardless, it had to be a summon if it saved Rinoa's life in the spacesuit. Why else would they put emphasis on it during that scene?

Rinoa obviously saw Adel's life when junctioned to her. There would be no other reason to mention such a statement. Squall and Seifer knew Garden and had grown up there a majority of their life, in this instance, Rinoa would lose her earliest memories (those of her life in Galbadia) and then she could only have Adel's memories to draw from, which she gained at 17. While that may not make a lot of sense, you have to recognize that GF's seem to specifically target a persons earliest memories (one of the reasons for the Orphanage scene) so Adel's memories wouldn't have been her earliest. It's obvious she saw Adel's memories, perhaps in a similar fashion that the party saw Laguna's (the only example we can really draw from), and I believe she did comment that they scared her.

[Carl the Llama]

It could be for the same reason as Solom Ring. He may not have had the right materials and he may not have realized it was a summon. Regardless, it had to be a summon if it saved Rinoa's life in the spacesuit. Why else would they put emphasis on it during that scene?

Rinoa obviously saw Adel's life when junctioned to her. There would be no other reason to mention such a statement. Squall and Seifer knew Garden and had grown up there a majority of their life, in this instance, Rinoa would lose her earliest memories (those of her life in Galbadia) and then she could only have Adel's memories to draw from, which she gained at 17. While that may not make a lot of sense, you have to recognize that GF's seem to specifically target a persons earliest memories (one of the reasons for the Orphanage scene) so Adel's memories wouldn't have been her earliest. It's obvious she saw Adel's memories, perhaps in a similar fashion that the party saw Laguna's (the only example we can really draw from), and I believe she did comment that they scared her.

The emphasis on the ring was - to me at least - her thinking of Squall, how can an inanimate object give her life? it could have been her Sorceress' powers that saved her, it could have been any number of the GF's she could have equiped at the time that saved her, imo, the focus on the ring was no more then her thinking of Squall at the time... just before he saved her.

Also how do you explain the fact that after Griever "saves her life" that he is not usable in the game?

Finally you did not explain that how she could have changed he perception from being Kind and Friendly to being Ruthless and Merciless. GF's wipe out memories, not a persons being. Like I said, what happened to the memories she made with Squall and Co. after Adell had junctioned her?

[Felixrush]

It could be for the same reason as Solom Ring. He may not have had the right materials and he may not have realized it was a summon. Regardless, it had to be a summon if it saved Rinoa's life in the spacesuit. Why else would they put emphasis on it during that scene?

Rinoa obviously saw Adel's life when junctioned to her. There would be no other reason to mention such a statement. Squall and Seifer knew Garden and had grown up there a majority of their life, in this instance, Rinoa would lose her earliest memories (those of her life in Galbadia) and then she could only have Adel's memories to draw from, which she gained at 17. While that may not make a lot of sense, you have to recognize that GF's seem to specifically target a persons earliest memories (one of the reasons for the Orphanage scene) so Adel's memories wouldn't have been her earliest. It's obvious she saw Adel's memories, perhaps in a similar fashion that the party saw Laguna's (the only example we can really draw from), and I believe she did comment that they scared her.

The emphasis on the ring was - to me at least - her thinking of Squall, how can an inanimate object give her life? it could have been her Sorceress' powers that saved her, it could have been any number of the GF's she could have equiped at the time that saved her, imo, the focus on the ring was no more then her thinking of Squall at the time... just before he saved her.

Also how do you explain the fact that after Griever "saves her life" that he is not usable in the game?

Finally you did not explain that how she could have changed he perception from being Kind and Friendly to being Ruthless and Merciless. GF's wipe out memories, not a persons being. Like I said, what happened to the memories she made with Squall and Co. after Adell had junctioned her?

Actually, she isn't equipped with any GFs for the portion of the story she is incapacitated. If she had them, she would've used them to rescue herself regardless. Her sorceress powers aren't ever focused on unless she's being controlled. Don't you find it even the least bit curious that after her oxygen ran out, the only thing emphsized was Squall's ring?

Finally, I'm not sure what you mean by 'the persons being' part. People grow into whom they are based on their experiences in the past. If her earliest memories faded away and all that was left was Adel's then all she could draw from would be Adel's memories.

I'm not entirely sure what could've happened to those memories. It's not implausible that the year long decades eventually wiped them entirely and left her with only Adel's memories.

I must admit, your point is valid. It doesn't make sense for her to not remember her friends and Squall. But here's something rather peculiar, Ultimecia seems to have some sort of vague manipulative fondness for Seifer yet when Squall dives into Rinoa's mind, Ultimecia's 'mental image' turns to him and is confused by his very presence. She outright asks him whom he is. This is the only time Ultimecia addresses him apart from his SeeD identity and sees Squall for himself and not as just another SeeD.

Do you not find it odd that Ultimecia goes so far as to junction herself in the final battle to a summon that, for the entirety of the game, figuratively represented Squall? I think it's possible that she didn't 'remember' Squall or the others but still 'loved' Squall so she fused with a GF that physically represented what he was all about to aid her in her misguided judgement.

[Wolf Kanno]

[QUOTE=Felixrush;3016522][QUOTE=KaiserDragon;3016503]

It could be for the same reason as Solom Ring. He may not have had the right materials and he may not have realized it was a summon. Regardless, it had to be a summon if it saved Rinoa's life in the spacesuit. Why else would they put emphasis on it during that scene?

Because Rinoa's final thoughts are about Squall? I'm with KaiserDragon here, this whole scene is simply just Rinoa thinking about Squall, the Ring is a symbol of Squall, she even is talking about Squall after her life support goes out, and when Squall is time jumping through Rinoa's memories, he winds up in her body at this time and encourages her to live. That's when she wakes up and sees the necklace, after Squall has been encouraging, her, I feel this pretty much shows that the necklace is meant to be symbolizing Squall, not just an arbitrary plot device that the game never goes into, but supposedly is connected to a major plot twist that neither source materials support, and is so subtly hidden in the plot that it takes careful interpretations of the scene to realize what is "really going on".

Rinoa obviously saw Adel's life when junctioned to her. There would be no other reason to mention such a statement. Squall and Seifer knew Garden and had grown up there a majority of their life, in this instance, Rinoa would lose her earliest memories (those of her life in Galbadia) and then she could only have Adel's memories to draw from, which she gained at 17. While that may not make a lot of sense, you have to recognize that GF's seem to specifically target a persons earliest memories (one of the reasons for the Orphanage scene) so Adel's memories wouldn't have been her earliest. It's obvious she saw Adel's memories, perhaps in a similar fashion that the party saw Laguna's (the only example we can really draw from), and I believe she did comment that they scared her.

She never comments on her feelings about Adel's memories, she simply stated she was in her younger body, before Ellone ejected her. I've already quoted the only thing she said about Adel above. The big issues with the theory, is that we have to assume Rinoa spent a significant amount of time in Adel's past to mistake them for her own memory, but the game kind of shows that the time traveler and their body experiences the past in the same amount of time. Whenever Squall and Zell are knocked out from time travel, they remain that way until whatever in the past is resolved, and comments from other party members suggest this is a significant amount of time. Whereas, Rinoa was briefly in Adel's past before Ellone pulled the plug. Hardly enough time for any significant amount of memories to be assimilated in Rinoa's body.

There is also the argument that this requires years of being in contact with Greiver to eventually wipe out her memories so she can confuse Adel's with hers. This still requires that you assume that Adel's memories are not targeted by the GF, which, without any really direct evidence to state contrary, is a bit far fetched.

The other issue here, is that Ultimecia is stated to exist in a future several generations from their own time, which means she's at least 60 to 90 years into the future, but the Ultimania, specifically states that Witches have normal human lifespans. So now we have to find evidence that explains how Rinoa could live that long to become Ultimecia.

Actually, she isn't equipped with any GFs for the portion of the story she is incapacitated. If she had them, she would've used them to rescue herself regardless. Her sorceress powers aren't ever focused on unless she's being controlled. Don't you find it even the least bit curious that after her oxygen ran out, the only thing emphsized was Squall's ring?

Finally, I'm not sure what you mean by 'the persons being' part. People grow into whom they are based on their experiences in the past. If her earliest memories faded away and all that was left was Adel's then all she could draw from would be Adel's memories.

I'm not entirely sure what could've happened to those memories. It's not implausible that the year long decades eventually wiped them entirely and left her with only Adel's memories.

Actually the scene leading up to Rinoa seeing the ring, is Squall's consciousness in her body, encouraging her to not give up. I also would like to think that if Griever saved her, the game would have made it more obvious with a flash of light or something. I think this is just a matter of willpower. Even with her oxygen gone, it would still takes anywhere from 6-8 minutes minutes for the lack of oxygen to irreversibly damage her organs and kill her. Losing consciousness would take less time and I feel Squall's encouragement simply kept her from doing so.

I must admit, your point is valid. It doesn't make sense for her to not remember her friends and Squall. But here's something rather peculiar, Ultimecia seems to have some sort of vague manipulative fondness for Seifer yet when Squall dives into Rinoa's mind, Ultimecia's 'mental image' turns to him and is confused by his very presence. She outright asks him whom he is. This is the only time Ultimecia addresses him apart from his SeeD identity and sees Squall for himself and not as just another SeeD.

Her fondness from Seifer stems from Seifer's dream to be a Knight that protects a Sorceress. He's just easily manipulated because of this, as well as him apparently recognizing who Matron was from the start. As for the scene where she asks Squall who he is, they are both occupying Rinoa's body at this time. It stand to reason, she simply felt Squall's consciousness enter Rinoa's body and was simply trying o figure out who this other consciousness was. Her reaction is really not far fetch.

Do you not find it odd that Ultimecia goes so far as to junction herself in the final battle to a summon that, for the entirety of the game, figuratively represented Squall? I think it's possible that she didn't 'remember' Squall or the others but still 'loved' Squall so she fused with a GF that physically represented what he was all about to aid her in her misguided judgement.

Using Scan on Griever suggests that Griever is simply born from Squall's interpretation of what he feels the Ultimate Summon is. The party kicked her ass, they finally kicked Griever's ass, why not Junction to him and see how they fare with their combined power?

I just don't think their is enough evidence to suggest R=U, on the contrary, I feel there is more evidence to suggest Ultimecia is simply what she appears to be, a psycho, power hungry witch from the future.

[Roogle]

I've always felt that the events in FFVIII are always how things happened. There was no changing time. Since Squall & Co. had fought and defeated her knowing she was from the future, everyone just kept an eye out for that big bad Ultimecia that would inevitably come into existence. And so she was persecuted before she had a chance to do anything wrong. So she was just like "what you want Ultimecia, well fine then you get Ultimecia " She was just an ordinary woman who became a sorceress during an era where they were more feared and hated than ever.

Yes, I agree with this completely. I guess it can be hard to envision how time loops like Final Fantasy VIII come into existence. Consider this statement: a circle has no beginning.

[Felixrush]

Because Rinoa's final thoughts are about Squall? I'm with KaiserDragon here, this whole scene is simply just Rinoa thinking about Squall, the Ring is a symbol of Squall, she even is talking about Squall after her life support goes out, and when Squall is time jumping through Rinoa's memories, he winds up in her body at this time and encourages her to live. That's when she wakes up and sees the necklace, after Squall has been encouraging, her, I feel this pretty much shows that the necklace is meant to be symbolizing Squall, not just an arbitrary plot device that the game never goes into, but supposedly is connected to a major plot twist that neither source materials support, and is so subtly hidden in the plot that it takes careful interpretations of the scene to realize what is "really going on".

It's not arbitrary source material. You get to name the summon earlier than that. It also wouldn't technically be a plot device either. GFs were established since the beginning of disc 1. Having one save Rinoa in outerspace is far more consistent then a dues ex machina in which she can somehow breathe in outside space because she's being instilled with hope.

She never comments on her feelings about Adel's memories, she simply stated she was in her younger body, before Ellone ejected her. I've already quoted the only thing she said about Adel above. The big issues with the theory, is that we have to assume Rinoa spent a significant amount of time in Adel's past to mistake them for her own memory, but the game kind of shows that the time traveler and their body experiences the past in the same amount of time. Whenever Squall and Zell are knocked out from time travel, they remain that way until whatever in the past is resolved, and comments from other party members suggest this is a significant amount of time. Whereas, Rinoa was briefly in Adel's past before Ellone pulled the plug. Hardly enough time for any significant amount of memories to be assimilated in Rinoa's body.

I'm afraid you're mistaken on a few things here. First, Ellone had nothing to do with the ejection. In fact, she wasn't even there until afterwards so they could properly send the party into time compression after Ultimecia. Rinoa was forcibly put into Adel's past by Adel herself. Rinoa obviously looks into Adel's memories for an indefinite amount of time during a fight between Adel and Squall's party. Squall's party is forced to go easy otherwise Rinoa will die. Also, Rinoa was obviously not consciously active during the fight otherwise she most likely would've said more than just "aaah!".

Also, take a look at just how Rinoa is junctioned. There is an obvious Cross-symbolism in the way she's junctioned unto Adel. Typically, the cross is a symbol of suffering or eventual death. Rinoa doesn't suffer or die because of Adel so why was that symbolism there? Unless... she eventually did? I also find it a bit curious that the music being played when Edea's powers are transferred to her and when Adel junctions her was 'A Sacrifice'.

There is also the argument that this requires years of being in contact with Greiver to eventually wipe out her memories so she can confuse Adel's with hers. This still requires that you assume that Adel's memories are not targeted by the GF, which, without any really direct evidence to state contrary, is a bit far fetched.

It's not at all. Rinoa never took off the Griever ring, why would she? It's a symbol of her and Squall's love. That we can agree on. Again, I stated before, it would logically target her earliest memories (as shown by the entire orphanage twist in disc 2),and Adel's memories wouldn't be her earliest. It would be her own childhood that was targeted first.

The other issue here, is that Ultimecia is stated to exist in a future several generations from their own time, which means she's at least 60 to 90 years into the future, but the Ultimania, specifically states that Witches have normal human lifespans. So now we have to find evidence that explains how Rinoa could live that long to become Ultimecia.

Not to be insulting but I believe it is you who are making indefinite conclusions based off inconclusive proof. I apologize if that comes off as rude but I don't like being accused of doing something and then see the accusor do the same actions themselves. We're never told how far into the future Ultimecia exists. Even if it was 60 to 90 years, it honestly doesn't make it impossible to be Rinoa. There have been rulers of ancient civilizations that started out at the ripe young age of 81 and this was during the time the life expectancy limit was 35.

Actually, she isn't equipped with any GFs for the portion of the story she is incapacitated. If she had them, she would've used them to rescue herself regardless. Her sorceress powers aren't ever focused on unless she's being controlled. Don't you find it even the least bit curious that after her oxygen ran out, the only thing emphsized was Squall's ring?

Finally, I'm not sure what you mean by 'the persons being' part. People grow into whom they are based on their experiences in the past. If her earliest memories faded away and all that was left was Adel's then all she could draw from would be Adel's memories.

I'm not entirely sure what could've happened to those memories. It's not implausible that the year long decades eventually wiped them entirely and left her with only Adel's memories.

Actually the scene leading up to Rinoa seeing the ring, is Squall's consciousness in her body, encouraging her to not give up. I also would like to think that if Griever saved her, the game would have made it more obvious with a flash of light or something. I think this is just a matter of willpower. Even with her oxygen gone, it would still takes anywhere from 6-8 minutes minutes for the lack of oxygen to irreversibly damage her organs and kill her. Losing consciousness would take less time and I feel Squall's encouragement simply kept her from doing so.

Ah, but the game is known for subtle hints. Good ones too. Look at the orphanage cut scene, Irvine's actions after first meeting him were subtle hints about it. Most people didn't even catch that, which was why the orphanage scene 'came out of nowhere'. There were other little things too, Cid giving Squall the commander position and Squall's short comment 'don't act like you've decided this since my childhood' hinting at an event in the ending, the President of Esthar's actions in space hinting that it was Laguna, the 'silent man' showing up after Squall saves Rinoa from the chamber and allowing them to escape being Ward, etc.

The point is, subtlety was a definite strong suit in Final Fantasy 8. It had a lot of it and it was done quite well.

Her fondness from Seifer stems from Seifer's dream to be a Knight that protects a Sorceress. He's just easily manipulated because of this, as well as him apparently recognizing who Matron was from the start. As for the scene where she asks Squall who he is, they are both occupying Rinoa's body at this time. It stand to reason, she simply felt Squall's consciousness enter Rinoa's body and was simply trying o figure out who this other consciousness was. Her reaction is really not far fetch.

A valid point. I suppose I saw the scene differently. I assumed Ultimecia could 'see' Squall just as Squall saw her but perhaps I'm mistaken about that...

Using Scan on Griever suggests that Griever is simply born from Squall's interpretation of what he feels the Ultimate Summon is. The party kicked her ass, they finally kicked Griever's ass, why not Junction to him and see how they fare with their combined power?

I just don't think their is enough evidence to suggest R=U, on the contrary, I feel there is more evidence to suggest Ultimecia is simply what she appears to be, a psycho, power hungry witch from the future.

But why Squall's mind and don't you find it odd that she uses the same strategy Adel used? Junctioning with something else to make yourself stronger. Why not create more GFs like the ones you fight before you get to her? Why junction herself unto a monster that Squall has a fondness for?

And, actually, regardless of if she's Rinoa's future self or not, she's still a power-hungry psycho witch from the future.

[Wolf Kanno]

It's not arbitrary source material. You get to name the summon earlier than that. It also wouldn't technically be a plot device either. GFs were established since the beginning of disc 1. Having one save Rinoa in outerspace is far more consistent then a dues ex machina in which she can somehow breathe in outside space because she's being instilled with hope.

Considering the game has up until that point, spent a good 60 hours trying to hook these two up and Squall is giving encouraging words, and this whole event is followed by the two finally hooking up, I feel that a Deus ex Machina by the "power of love" is not far fetched here. Poor writing? Maybe, but hardly not far fetch for a game whose theme is Love. Don't forget this is also the game where believing in the memory and power of loved ones, allows you to exist in a Time Compressed world.

The issue with Griever, is that if the ring contained Griever, how did Squall not know? How did he get the ring if it contained such an important plot element? If its laying dormant, why did it choose then to activate and help, and why does Rinoa neither remember or mention it? Why didn't it help her during the battle with Adel, Ultimecia, or Future Griever itself? The issue here, is that saying it was Griever, opens a can of worms of questions and plot holes. If it was so important to the plot, don't you think the game might have at least addressed some of these questions?

I'm afraid you're mistaken on a few things here. First, Ellone had nothing to do with the ejection. In fact, she wasn't even there until afterwards so they could properly send the party into time compression after Ultimecia. Rinoa was forcibly put into Adel's past by Adel herself. Rinoa obviously looks into Adel's memories for an indefinite amount of time during a fight between Adel and Squall's party. Squall's party is forced to go easy otherwise Rinoa will die. Also, Rinoa was obviously not consciously active during the fight otherwise she most likely would've said more than just "aaah!".

Also, take a look at just how Rinoa is junctioned. There is an obvious Cross-symbolism in the way she's junctioned unto Adel. Typically, the cross is a symbol of suffering or eventual death. Rinoa doesn't suffer or die because of Adel so why was that symbolism there? Unless... she eventually did? I also find it a bit curious that the music being played when Edea's powers are transferred to her and when Adel junctions her was 'A Sacrifice'.

Actually, Ellone does have to do with the ejection, cause the whole plan was to get Rinoa as the final Sorceress, so they can get Ultimecia to instigate Time Compression, so they can travel to the future.

Dr. Odine: You vant to go outside!? You vant to fisticuffs!? Ok, we continue ze story! Let's see... There is only one way to defeat Ultimecia. You must kill her in ze future. There iz nothing we can do unless we go to ze future. There is no way to jump to ze future under normal circumstances. But there iz still a way! It iz because Sorceress Ultimecia plans to compress time. Compressing time with magic... Vat good will it do for ze sorceress to compress time? There may be many reasons, but it doesn't matter. Let's just figure out vat Ultimecia iz up to. In order for Ultimecia to exist in this time, she must take over ze body of a sorceress from ze present. But ze machine must have a limit. Ultimecia probably needs to go back further in time to achieve time compression. Only Ellone can take her back further into ze past. Zat iz why she iz desperately seeking her. We must take advantage of Ellone's power. There are 2 sorceresses in our time. Sorceress Rinoa and Sorceress Adel. Of ze two, Adel has not awaken yet. Once regeneration is completed, neither Laguna not I will be safe. Sorceress Adel is probably in ze process of awakening inside of Lunatic Pandora. Ultimecia will want to possess Adel, if Adel wakes up. Zat vill be a horrible event. Adel iz a horrible sorceress. If Adel's consciousness wins over Ultimecia, Adel will first destroy this era. So we must use Sorceress Rinoa to inherit Ultimecia's powers. Zat's all for ze mission briefing. First, go to Lunatic Pandora. Ellone's probably being held captive inside, so rescue her first. Then kill Sorceress Adel before ze awakening process is completed. Now, we're left with Rinoa as ze only sorceress of this era. Then wait for Ultimecia to possess Rinoa. When Ultimecia arrives, it's Ellone's turn. Ellone will send Rinoa back to ze past with Ultimecia. Ellone will have to send Rinoa and Ultimecia inside another sorceress she knows in the past. Edea or Adel... Zat's up to Ellone. Once Ultimecia iz in ze past, she'll use ze time compression magic. We will see some influence here. I don't know vat kind of influence, but once Ellone feels it, she'll cut Rinoa and Ultimecia off from ze past. Rinoa will come back to this world. Ultimecia also goes back to her own world. Vat would be left is ze time compressed world. Past, present future will all get mixed together. You will keep moving through ze time compression toward ze future. Once you're out of ze time compression, zat will be Ultimecia's world. It's all up to you after zat.

also, here is the entire scene of Adel in Lunatic Pandora. No mention of memories whatsoever, just that Ellone sent Rinoa and Ultimecia into a younger Adel she knew, so Ultimecia could start Time Compression.

The other issue here, is that according to the 20th anniversary Ultimania, Ultimecia was actually controlling Adel during the fight.

....Initially, she “connected” to Edea, and via her memories, pursued Ellone’s trail; during this time, Edea was aware of all that was taking place, but had no control until she was defeated by Squall’s team of SeeD, at which point her witch powers transferred to Rinoa; at that point, Ultimecia used Rinoa as her puppet to free the evil witch, Adel, who had been sealed in space. Controlling the revived Adel, she again sought to bring Ellone into her hands.

So chances are, that Rinoa is unconscious cause Ultimecia is running the show, and if she's dominating, then Adel is basically doing nothing at this point cause she's in the same boat as Rinoa. Of anything, she's probably having a psychic battle with Ultimecia and doesn't have time to corrupt Rinoa.

**************************************************************

It's not at all. Rinoa never took off the Griever ring, why would she? It's a symbol of her and Squall's love. That we can agree on. Again, I stated before, it would logically target her earliest memories (as shown by the entire orphanage twist in disc 2),and Adel's memories wouldn't be her earliest. It would be her own childhood that was targeted first.

Except Squall is able to hold onto his memories of Ellone, so there are limits to how much the memory wipe works. The other issue here, comes back to KaiserDragon's argument, how does Rinoa go from being her happy self and then turn into a bat-tit crazy time witch? Especially since we know VIII ends with her and Squall living happily ever after? Do you think Squall would just sit back and let Rinoa go crazy, especially after all the the crap she put him through in the first place? You now have to explain how if VIII ended "happily ever after" how does Rinoa become corrupt and evil without the intervention of friends? What happened to Squall and the rest of SeeD? How do they not figure out about Griever? How does Rinoa not figure it out considering she's a Witch who is absorbing all energy waves around her, not aware of the sentient energy force hanging around her neck?

While the game presents a moment for Rinoa to be corrupted, the ending creates several questions and plot holes concerning the logic of the theory.

Not to be insulting but I believe it is you who are making indefinite conclusions based off inconclusive proof. I apologize if that comes off as rude but I don't like being accused of doing something and then see the accusor do the same actions themselves. We're never told how far into the future Ultimecia exists. Even if it was 60 to 90 years, it honestly doesn't make it impossible to be Rinoa. There have been rulers of ancient civilizations that started out at the ripe young age of 81 and this was during the time the life expectancy limit was 35.

I don't mean to sound rude, and I'm sorry if I offended you, but remember the game explicitly states that Ultimecia is a sorceress that hails from several generations in the future.

Edea: ...I have been possessed all this time. I was at the mercy of Sorceress Ultimecia. Ultimecia is a sorceress from the future. A sorceress many generations ahead of our time. Ultimecia's objective is to find Ellone. She is after Ellone's mysterious power. I knew Ellone very well. Ultimecia is a very fearful sorceress. Her heart is filled with anger and hate. There was no way I was going to let Ultimecia get a hold of Ellone. The only thing I could do was... ...Surrender my soul to Ultimecia and lose control of my mind. That was the only way I could save Ellone. And the end result... Well, you all know. The sorceress that appeared in Galbadia was in fact Ultimecia...inside my shell...

Filled with endless anger, a dreadful witch from the far future. In her time, she used the apparatus known as “Junction Machine Ellone” — which allows one person’s consciousness to connect to that of another person — to possess witches of the world’s past as she sought to capture Ellone, who possesses a special power.

If a generation is a 30 year period and we know that Ultemicia hails from several generations ahead of time, that puts her in a time frame that can at the least be 60 years, but since the language of the statement is so ambiguous, she can also be 600 years into the future for all we know cause the game never gives a direct idea. Also, considering Ultemicia looks like this:
250px-Ultimecia_ff8.jpg

256px-Dissidia_Ultimecia.png

8ultimecia-b.jpg

I'd say she's one foxy and youthful looking 80 year old.

********************************************************************

Ah, but the game is known for subtle hints. Good ones too. Look at the orphanage cut scene, Irvine's actions after first meeting him were subtle hints about it. Most people didn't even catch that, which was why the orphanage scene 'came out of nowhere'. There were other little things too, Cid giving Squall the commander position and Squall's short comment 'don't act like you've decided this since my childhood' hinting at an event in the ending, the President of Esthar's actions in space hinting that it was Laguna, the 'silent man' showing up after Squall saves Rinoa from the chamber and allowing them to escape being Ward, etc.

The point is, subtlety was a definite strong suit in Final Fantasy 8. It had a lot of it and it was done quite well.

I'd say the fact most people missed the fact that the game hints to the orphanage scene is pretty much the opposite of subtitly done well. I'll give you Laguna but I don't feel the game was really subtle about that one. Actually I'd say Laguna and Squall's familial relationship was probably done well but the problem with these compared to the Griever/R=U theory you are proposing is that the game doesn't leave any questions unanswered concerning the Squall/Laguna twist. Ellone mentions that Raine had a child that Laguna never met, Squall is always Laguna in the dream sequences, and Kiros practically tells you if you talk to him on the Ragnarok before going to Lunatic Pandora by telling Squall he's lucky he takes after his mother and not his father.

It may not have been directly stated but the evidence is more than just flashing an image. Its not like Squall spends his time focusing on a journal for no reason, and this was the hint that he's tryin to remember his journalist father. The twist has a moment that acts as a definitive conclusion, its never stated outright but the evidence is very obvious when put together. The same happens in VII concerning Zack, which is a person who had been hinted too from the very beginning of the game, and was consistently hinted to throughout the first disc by both Aerith and Tifa. There is also the relationship between Relm and Shadow, which is hinted at strongly by not only subte hints in Thamasa when Relm is first introduced, but downright thrown in the players face thanks to Shadow's dreams and the one Relm has. Not to mention the subtle hint in the FMV opening in Anthologies where an Amano portrait of Relm is quickly flashed over Shadow, before he dices up some ghosts.

The point is, that each subtle twist has a major moment of confirmation. Whether its indirect like Squall/Laguna and Shadow/Relm relationships to the not so subtle one like Zack or Golbez being Cecil's brother. There is always an a-ha moment and R=U really doesn't have one. There is no major subtle hint in the game that truly confirms R=U, its always just another incredible subtle hint that involves major analysis of scenes or minor elements, to even realize its existence. Ultemicia never blurts out something to kind of give her true identity away, no special words for Squall, no major element of her past to explain how she went from being happy and in-love Rinoa to Time Compressed crazy bitch. Rinoa never mentions that Ultemicia's consciousness feels familiar, hell no one even stops to say she kind of looks familiar when they meet her face to face.

The other nail in the coffin here is the Ultimania's, which have confirmed a conncection between Squall and Laguna, as well as Shadow and Relm, but not one Ultimania I've found has ever given any evidence to support R=U. The only connection confirmed is that Ultemicia at some point in VIII gives Rinoa Sorceress power and then possesses her. There is no character relation tree that puts a "wink wink, nudge nudge" ? line between the two, like it does for the two sets of people with ambiguous relationships. The Ultimania's address a connection between Squall and Laguna, but nothing for Rinoa and any of the sorceresses. So in 12 years, SE has never once confirmed it, whereas other ambiguous plot threads have been acknowledged.

But why Squall's mind and don't you find it odd that she uses the same strategy Adel used? Junctioning with something else to make yourself stronger. Why not create more GFs like the ones you fight before you get to her? Why junction herself unto a monster that Squall has a fondness for?

And, actually, regardless of if she's Rinoa's future self or not, she's still a power-hungry psycho witch from the future.

Mostly cause he's the main character but a more fulfilling answer is that Squall has always been at every point of conflict with Ultemicia, so chances are she knows him better, there is also the notion that she referrs to him as the Legendary SeeD in the Garden Battle (course this could be a mis-translation since the Deling speech is so off) so its possible that Squall does hold some significiance in Ultemicia's time.

As for Junctioning with Griever being similar to Rina and Adel, I feel there are big differences. Rinoa is stretched out in a cross shape, and only her hands and feet appear to be fused to her, whereas most of her body is exposed (though I feel the theme of Sacrifice is more likely because Rinoa was sacrificed to Adel to be a power generator, and because rinoa is the sacrificial lamb for Odine's plan to reach Ultemicia by allowing her to do Time Compression by possessing Rinoa). Whereas, Ultemicia is mostly fused with Griever and only her torso is exposed with her arms crossed to cover her naughty bits. Adel spends the battle srawing magic and life out of Rinoa, whereas Ultemicia/Griever act as one being.

As for why she didn't creat more of them, there are two possible theories:

1) Her power does have some limitations and I do kind of feel that making a GF out of some mnemories and mostly thin air might take more oomph than one would expect, especially since Ultemicia most likely drained a good part of her power casting the spell for Time Compression. Chances are, the party may not have fought Ultemicia at full strength.

or....

2) Its all a stalling tactic cause Ultemicia's true goal is simply to create her Time Compressed world and Squall's party is simply trying to kill her before the spell is completed. Basically she's stalling until she can transform into her final form, where she's slurping up time and spcae like it was a milkshake, and getting stronger by the minute. Its not like her casle of Nightmares wasn't keeping the party busy either. She probably just needed a few more minutes for Time Compression to send her into god mode.

********************************************************************
I'm not trying to be a jerk here, I'm just proposing some issues with your theory for the sake of conversation. I'm more of an asshole in the FFXIII forum. I've just done this song and dance before with other R=U theorist, and I'm happy you're willing to create a proper dialogue for discussion about your theory.

[Felixrush]

Considering the game has up until that point, spent a good 60 hours trying to hook these two up and Squall is giving encouraging words, and this whole event is followed by the two finally hooking up, I feel that a Deus ex Machina by the "power of love" is not far fetched here. Poor writing? Maybe, but hardly not far fetch for a game whose theme is Love. Don't forget this is also the game where believing in the memory and power of loved ones, allows you to exist in a Time Compressed world.

The issue with Griever, is that if the ring contained Griever, how did Squall not know? How did he get the ring if it contained such an important plot element? If its laying dormant, why did it choose then to activate and help, and why does Rinoa neither remember or mention it? Why didn't it help her during the battle with Adel, Ultimecia, or Future Griever itself? The issue here, is that saying it was Griever, opens a can of worms of questions and plot holes. If it was so important to the plot, don't you think the game might have at least addressed some of these questions?

Memory loss. Aside from which, how would he know it was a GF to begin with? Squall mentions she should keep it as a good luck charm. And I don't believe the game would've done that. FF8 is unlike other final fantasies in this regard. They never even directly state that Squall is the son of Raine and Laguna but the player knows it with Kiros's words near the end.

Actually, Ellone does have to do with the ejection, cause the whole plan was to get Rinoa as the final Sorceress, so they can get Ultimecia to instigate Time Compression, so they can travel to the future.

That's sending Rinoa into someone else's consciousness. Though, I admit, I forgot the small scene in which Ellone brought Rinoa back before plunging her into Ultimecia's mixed consciousness of Adel's.

also, here is the entire scene of Adel in Lunatic Pandora. No mention of memories whatsoever, just that Ellone sent Rinoa and Ultimecia into a younger Adel she knew, so Ultimecia could start Time Compression.

She would obviously have to have seen Adel's memories to even know she was inside a younger Adel. You contradicted yourself here.

The other issue here, is that according to the 20th anniversary Ultimania, Ultimecia was actually controlling Adel during the fight.

Ultimania's have often been incorrectly translated. Such as FF7's compilation info. The fan translation stated that Sephiroth was 'the strongest' FF villain, and later retracted that statement stating they were incorrect and that he was simply the strongest in the planet he resided in. Therefore, it's better to take these 'translations' with a grain of salt instead of complete truth. We honestly have no way to verify the integrity of the information or the translation of the information thereof.

So chances are, that Rinoa is unconscious cause Ultimecia is running the show, and if she's dominating, then Adel is basically doing nothing at this point cause she's in the same boat as Rinoa. Of anything, she's probably having a psychic battle with Ultimecia and doesn't have time to corrupt Rinoa.

And yet, Rinoa saw Adel's past self and not Ultimecia's.
**************************************************************

Except Squall is able to hold onto his memories of Ellone, so there are limits to how much the memory wipe works. The other issue here, comes back to KaiserDragon's argument, how does Rinoa go from being her happy self and then turn into a bat-tit crazy time witch? Especially since we know VIII ends with her and Squall living happily ever after? Do you think Squall would just sit back and let Rinoa go crazy, especially after all the the crap she put him through in the first place? You now have to explain how if VIII ended "happily ever after" how does Rinoa become corrupt and evil without the intervention of friends? What happened to Squall and the rest of SeeD? How do they not figure out about Griever? How does Rinoa not figure it out considering she's a Witch who is absorbing all energy waves around her, not aware of the sentient energy force hanging around her neck?

Squall didn't even recognize Ellone when he saw her twice in her adult form. Granted, the first time was brief, the second time however he didn't even realize 'Ellone' and 'Elle' were the same person. All he seemed to really remember was the emotional pain of Ellone mysteriously vanishing from the orphanage.

And the ending of FF8 was obviously made to be interpreted openly. Why else was there a scene in which Squall continuously sees Rinoa in a repeated memory in which her face is blocked off most of the time, Ultimecia is seen briefly, before we see Rinoa in space with her helmet break apart and the Griever ring fly off into space (an event that never even happened)? Obviously, it was meant for individual interpretation. Heck, I've seen no comments about the ending from this supposed 'Ultimania' which doesn't even have an official translation and can't be verified.

While the game presents a moment for Rinoa to be corrupted, the ending creates several questions and plot holes concerning the logic of the theory.

Final Fantasy VIII full ending (HQ remastered) - YouTube

You quite clearly see how open the ending is right here. In fact, Ultimecia's face is the only one that stays for any significant length of time (however brief) besides Rinoa's. I also find it curious that nearly all the segments were short clips of when Rinoa was bewitched by Ultimecia apart from the clips of the friends.

I don't mean to sound rude, and I'm sorry if I offended you, but remember the game explicitly states that Ultimecia is a sorceress that hails from several generations in the future.

Edea: ...I have been possessed all this time. I was at the mercy of Sorceress Ultimecia. Ultimecia is a sorceress from the future. A sorceress many generations ahead of our time. Ultimecia's objective is to find Ellone. She is after Ellone's mysterious power. I knew Ellone very well. Ultimecia is a very fearful sorceress. Her heart is filled with anger and hate. There was no way I was going to let Ultimecia get a hold of Ellone. The only thing I could do was... ...Surrender my soul to Ultimecia and lose control of my mind. That was the only way I could save Ellone. And the end result... Well, you all know. The sorceress that appeared in Galbadia was in fact Ultimecia...inside my shell...

Filled with endless anger, a dreadful witch from the far future. In her time, she used the apparatus known as “Junction Machine Ellone” — which allows one person’s consciousness to connect to that of another person — to possess witches of the world’s past as she sought to capture Ellone, who possesses a special power.

If a generation is a 30 year period and we know that Ultemicia hails from several generations ahead of time, that puts her in a time frame that can at the least be 60 years, but since the language of the statement is so ambiguous, she can also be 600 years into the future for all we know cause the game never gives a direct idea. Also, considering Ultemicia looks like this:






I'd say she's one foxy and youthful looking 80 year old.

You're missing the point. The time stated is never definite and Odine's words barely hold any weight. We never see this Junction machine she supposedly uses and the fact the Orphanage has been rebuilt and is in the same geographic location leads me to believe that the 'far' future isn't really an absurd length of time long into the future. Hell, SeeD still exists during Ultimecia's time period. You would think this organization would have long died out if it was something like 600 years into the future. Also, these assumptions aren't based on much either. If anything 'far into the future' could mean 30 years or even less.

********************************************************************

I'd say the fact most people missed the fact that the game hints to the orphanage scene is pretty much the opposite of subtitly done well. I'll give you Laguna but I don't feel the game was really subtle about that one. Actually I'd say Laguna and Squall's familial relationship was probably done well but the problem with these compared to the Griever/R=U theory you are proposing is that the game doesn't leave any questions unanswered concerning the Squall/Laguna twist. Ellone mentions that Raine had a child that Laguna never met, Squall is always Laguna in the dream sequences, and Kiros practically tells you if you talk to him on the Ragnarok before going to Lunatic Pandora by telling Squall he's lucky he takes after his mother and not his father.

It may not have been directly stated but the evidence is more than just flashing an image. Its not like Squall spends his time focusing on a journal for no reason, and this was the hint that he's tryin to remember his journalist father. The twist has a moment that acts as a definitive conclusion, its never stated outright but the evidence is very obvious when put together. The same happens in VII concerning Zack, which is a person who had been hinted too from the very beginning of the game, and was consistently hinted to throughout the first disc by both Aerith and Tifa. There is also the relationship between Relm and Shadow, which is hinted at strongly by not only subte hints in Thamasa when Relm is first introduced, but downright thrown in the players face thanks to Shadow's dreams and the one Relm has. Not to mention the subtle hint in the FMV opening in Anthologies where an Amano portrait of Relm is quickly flashed over Shadow, before he dices up some ghosts.

The point is, that each subtle twist has a major moment of confirmation. Whether its indirect like Squall/Laguna and Shadow/Relm relationships to the not so subtle one like Zack or Golbez being Cecil's brother. There is always an a-ha moment and R=U really doesn't have one. There is no major subtle hint in the game that truly confirms R=U, its always just another incredible subtle hint that involves major analysis of scenes or minor elements, to even realize its existence. Ultemicia never blurts out something to kind of give her true identity away, no special words for Squall, no major element of her past to explain how she went from being happy and in-love Rinoa to Time Compressed crazy bitch. Rinoa never mentions that Ultemicia's consciousness feels familiar, hell no one even stops to say she kind of looks familiar when they meet her face to face.

Reflect on your...Childhood...Your sensation...Your words...Your emotions...Time...It will not wait...No matter...How hard you hold on...It escapes you...And...

Perhaps she was saying these things because time made her lose her memories?

I'd say Griever's entire existence in that fight, the junctioning, and then that quote really put up a lot of openness in the theory.

The other nail in the coffin here is the Ultimania's, which have confirmed a conncection between Squall and Laguna, as well as Shadow and Relm, but not one Ultimania I've found has ever given any evidence to support R=U. The only connection confirmed is that Ultemicia at some point in VIII gives Rinoa Sorceress power and then possesses her. There is no character relation tree that puts a "wink wink, nudge nudge" ? line between the two, like it does for the two sets of people with ambiguous relationships. The Ultimania's address a connection between Squall and Laguna, but nothing for Rinoa and any of the sorceresses. So in 12 years, SE has never once confirmed it, whereas other ambiguous plot threads have been acknowledged.

Except, fan translations shouldn't be taken literally. If they could make a mistake in translating FF7's information about Sephiroth then I don't see why they couldn't have made mistakes here as well. Was Square Enix ever asked to confirm or deny anything by any fans? If a 'nudge, nudge - wink wink' is what you're looking for then check out Squall's story in the first Dissidia, in which Ultimecia's equipment is a 'dark' version of Rinoa's and she asks to dance with Squall as a joke.

Mostly cause he's the main character but a more fulfilling answer is that Squall has always been at every point of conflict with Ultemicia, so chances are she knows him better, there is also the notion that she referrs to him as the Legendary SeeD in the Garden Battle (course this could be a mis-translation since the Deling speech is so off) so its possible that Squall does hold some significiance in Ultemicia's time.

As for Junctioning with Griever being similar to Rina and Adel, I feel there are big differences. Rinoa is stretched out in a cross shape, and only her hands and feet appear to be fused to her, whereas most of her body is exposed (though I feel the theme of Sacrifice is more likely because Rinoa was sacrificed to Adel to be a power generator, and because rinoa is the sacrificial lamb for Odine's plan to reach Ultemicia by allowing her to do Time Compression by possessing Rinoa). Whereas, Ultemicia is mostly fused with Griever and only her torso is exposed with her arms crossed to cover her naughty bits. Adel spends the battle srawing magic and life out of Rinoa, whereas Ultemicia/Griever act as one being.

If Ultimecia lived so long into the future as you claim it would be more logical to presume that history forgot him. Anyway, the problem isn't the junctioning itself but the obvious symbolism. Rinoa can't really be a 'sacrifice' if she survived.

As for why she didn't creat more of them, there are two possible theories:

1) Her power does have some limitations and I do kind of feel that making a GF out of some mnemories and mostly thin air might take more oomph than one would expect, especially since Ultemicia most likely drained a good part of her power casting the spell for Time Compression. Chances are, the party may not have fought Ultemicia at full strength.

If that was the case then why did she make those abominations out of GFs she acquired? The ones in her castle that you can fight before facing her.

or....

2) Its all a stalling tactic cause Ultemicia's true goal is simply to create her Time Compressed world and Squall's party is simply trying to kill her before the spell is completed. Basically she's stalling until she can transform into her final form, where she's slurping up time and spcae like it was a milkshake, and getting stronger by the minute. Its not like her casle of Nightmares wasn't keeping the party busy either. She probably just needed a few more minutes for Time Compression to send her into god mode.

It seemed more like Time compression was slowly desolving to me. She could've just gone into her final form and attempted to trounce the party or done it anytime before the party reached her.

********************************************************************
I'm not trying to be a jerk here, I'm just proposing some issues with your theory for the sake of conversation. I'm more of an asshole in the FFXIII forum. I've just done this song and dance before with other R=U theorist, and I'm happy you're willing to create a proper dialogue for discussion about your theory.

Nah, it's all good. I just wish you hadn't wrote such long-winded paragraphs. I use to write a lot like that back at gamefaqs but later felt silly over arguing so much over video games. xD

But yeah, no reason to get moody over video games. I suppose this discussion is rather pointless since no matter what, it seems like both of us are set in our beliefs. I honestly cannot stand Final Fantasy 'ultimanias' and 'compilations'. Tetsuya Nomura seems hellbent on turning Sephiroth into some sort of Galactus-wannabe and I never liked that.

When I found out the compilation was nothing but fan translations, inaccurate ones at that since Sephiroth was never actually stated to be the strongest in all of Final Fantasy, I feel like it's faulty to rely on unless localized and therefore verifiable by all fans instead of believing whatever fan translators, whose credentials are questionable, say.

[Wolf Kanno]

Memory loss. Aside from which, how would he know it was a GF to begin with? Squall mentions she should keep it as a good luck charm. And I don't believe the game would've done that. FF8 is unlike other final fantasies in this regard. They never even directly state that Squall is the son of Raine and Laguna but the player knows it with Kiros's words near the end.

Yes, because Kiros pretty much says it and there are a number of signs and dialogue in the game to confirm it. Whereas Griever has one incredibly ambiguous scene that I feel within context was meant to be a symbol of Squall which made sense cause his consciousness was within Rinoa at the time. Even if Rinoa can't remember it cause of memory loss or being unconscious, Squall was there in spirit, yet he says nothing. Also, Squall and Laguna's relationship is intriguing, but not actually important to the plot, its indirectness can be forgiven cause its actually irrelevant to the plot, whereas the Griever issue sounds like a significant plot element if it saved Rinoa's life and eventually caused her to be R=U. That's not a plot element you leave minor breadcrumbs for only a select few to catch onto, that's a game changer and I feel only an amateur or a complete pretentious douche of writer would pull.

My real question here, is why does Squall have a ring when he always wears gloves?

also, here is the entire scene of Adel in Lunatic Pandora. No mention of memories whatsoever, just that Ellone sent Rinoa and Ultimecia into a younger Adel she knew, so Ultimecia could start Time Compression.

She would obviously have to have seen Adel's memories to even know she was inside a younger Adel. You contradicted yourself here.

That I did, but considering we know that Ellone's powers work in real time(every Dream sequence is followed up by one not participant, usually Rinoa, mentioning the characters had been out for a good chunk of time, and yet Squall is only bale to experience very small parts of Laguna's life), means that Rinoa was most likely not able to see a good chunk of her memory, Ellone pretty much brought her back immediately so its very unlikely Rinoa saw anything significant. Even if she did, its surprising it goes completely unmentioned by her. As soon as the ordeal is over, Rinoa never mentions anything concerning her brief moment in time in Adel's past. Once again, if this was meant to be a significant plot element, I feel it would have been elaborated on much more than just one line of dialogue and then forgotten completely.

Ultimania's have often been incorrectly translated. Such as FF7's compilation info. The fan translation stated that Sephiroth was 'the strongest' FF villain, and later retracted that statement stating they were incorrect and that he was simply the strongest in the planet he resided in. Therefore, it's better to take these 'translations' with a grain of salt instead of complete truth. We honestly have no way to verify the integrity of the information or the translation of the information thereof.

If they were often incorrect, then I feel you could give more than one example, especially one that the fan-translators themselves found and later corrected. The other issue here, is that we know VIII has translation errors and localization changes of its own, so its not like we can even use the games own script as absolute truth either since by your definition its just as faulty.

There really is no reason to discount translation projects that are the result of a collaboration of die hard fans. Of anything, I feel that die hard fans are more likely to be as accurate as possible because they care more, as opposed to some guy who is simply hired for the job and this will be one of a stack of other translation projects they will be working on. Its not like SE has ever proofread or cared about the translation and localization quality of their games, as long as they are readable and bring in a profit. The series has been marred with translation errors and poor localization all the way up to FFX. So honestly, I would rather place my lot with the fans who actually have a reason to care about the accuracy of the work. Especially if they are willing to admit they are wrong, and mistranslated. I study Japanese, its a very ambiguous language based on context rather than definitive statementsm mistakes can happen.

Also, while the Sephiroth example you gave is from the Ultimania, I can elaborate further by pointing out its from the Creator Interview section of the Advent Children Ultimania (for smurf sake, I hate the Compilation , yet I know this how?) which was a statement made by Kitase if I remember correctly. The translation error comes from him saying "there is no one above Sephiroth on the Planet" and honestly, if you took this line out of the interview's context, it does sound like a definitive statement about Sephiroth in the FF mythos, but when put into the context of knowing the interviewer asked about how strong Sephy was in AC when he fought Cloud, it makes more sense that he meant in VII's world. I honestly don't see this as a major mistake. Even if Kitase did make such a statement, he's already admitted that VII is his favorite game he made, and he was the most gung-ho about the Compilation (Nomura just wanted to do a simple 30 minute video), and can only claim creative contribution on five FF titles out of 14 games total, so I don't think anyone but fans of VII would take his statement clearly. Even then, there has been other off the wall statements made by Kitase and Nojima that received such negative outcry that SE has never brought it up again, making some fans believe they have gone back on that statement.

And yet, Rinoa saw Adel's past self and not Ultimecia's.

Well yeah, Ultimecia is from the future and Ellone can't send people to the future. Also, Ultimecia was a consciousness inside Rinoa that was sent along with her. Its no different from when she would send Zell or Squall in the past, or when Squall's consciousness was sent into Rinoa's while Ultimecia was in control. Squall (and the player) didn't see Ultimecia's past,he simply heard her thoughts when she noticed him. It would be no different here.
**************************************************************

Squall didn't even recognize Ellone when he saw her twice in her adult form. Granted, the first time was brief, the second time however he didn't even realize 'Ellone' and 'Elle' were the same person. All he seemed to really remember was the emotional pain of Ellone mysteriously vanishing from the orphanage.

You forgot to mention that years went by, its not like little Squall's Elle looks like grown up Ellone. So its not just the GFs here. I know I couldn't recognize people I went to high school with, if I saw them now.

The issue here, is that other people like Quistis and Zell have completely forgotten about the orphanage yet Squall remember part of, the part that is most important.

You're avoiding my question though, if Rinoa was going to have her memories lost due to having a hidden GF on her and then have Adel's memories corrupt her personality, how is this possible if the last scene in the game clearly shows Squall and Rinoa kissing and implying a happy ever after? What happened to Squall and the others, how did they let Rinoa degenerate this badly and not done anything? I find it hard to believe that they wouldn't do anything, and this creates a major plot hole in the R=U theory that I feel should be addressed to establish this theory as canon.

And the ending of FF8 was obviously made to be interpreted openly. Why else was there a scene in which Squall continuously sees Rinoa in a repeated memory in which her face is blocked off most of the time, Ultimecia is seen briefly, before we see Rinoa in space with her helmet break apart and the Griever ring fly off into space (an event that never even happened)? Obviously, it was meant for individual interpretation. Heck, I've seen no comments about the ending from this supposed 'Ultimania' which doesn't even have an official translation and can't be verified.

The Ultimania doesn't touch on the ending (the actual VIII Ultimania doesn't even go into Adel or Ultimecia, most of the ubfo on these two come from the FF 20th Anniversary Character Ultimania, There is a scenario Ultimania as well but not much has been translated from that), mainly cause VIII's Ultimania is simply glorified strategy guide with a few extra tidbits of info (mostly on the machines and vehicles, and notable NPCs in towns) like explaining terms in the game, like what GFs are, what is a witch, and a short story by Nojima about Hyne and the origin of the Witches.

Personally, I feel that witnessing an event that didn't happen in the game, right there disqualifies taking anything in the first five minutes of the ending as having significant plot value, pretty much null and void. Squall is obviously hallucinating, not getting the 2001: Space Odyssey treatment, o some kind of divine revelation. I just don't think its significant evidence. So what if it flashes an image of Ultimecia's final form for a split second that is so fast if you blinked, you would miss it, that doesn't make it significant, that makes it so obtuse, only someone really bored would pick up on it. As for her getting some airtime in the ending, its in the middle of you watching a massive collage of every cast member from every cutscene in the game. Hell the first of these flash images in the ending is of Seifer but it doesn't mean its actually significant.

I feel that Squall is simply trying to hold onto something. He's trapped in the remnants of Time Compression and needs to find something to hold onto in order to get back to his own time. Course, having spent most of the game as a loner, he doesn't have the strong emotional bonds to do this easily and simply is struggling to remember Rinoa while the warping of time and space takes its toll on his psyche. That's the reason why he flashbacks to so many events in the game, its because Squall is practically watching his life flash before his eyes. Its not until he finds his most honest feeling about Rinoa, which was when he thought she died in space, that Squall makes his connection, and what do you know, two seconds later in the video, Rinoa shows up to comfort him from the post-TC existence he found himself trapped in. That's my interpretation of the beginning sequence at least.

I feel the ending was suppose to be ambiguous but I feel it still correlates to the games theme of love and opening up to others, and I feel the end finds a bizarre way of getting a last little moment of throwing the theme into the players face. At least it sticks with you.

This is pretty much the Evangelion ending all over again, except no one is claiming that Gendo Ikari is an older Shinji who has time traveled into the past to affect the Instrumentality Project, and change the future.

Final Fantasy VIII full ending (HQ remastered) - YouTube

You quite clearly see how open the ending is right here. In fact, Ultimecia's face is the only one that stays for any significant length of time (however brief) besides Rinoa's. I also find it curious that nearly all the segments were short clips of when Rinoa was bewitched by Ultimecia apart from the clips of the friends.

Incorrect, all the Rinoa footage is simply from the cutscenes and the closest you get to "possessed Rinoa" is the FMV sequence where Rinoa tries to place the Odine Bangle on Edea. Most of the footage of Rinoa that isn't the warped Dance party intro, are just a hodge podge of the sequences from the games opening FMV to Squall rescuing Rinoa at the Garden Battle and the Sorceress Memorial. There is no footage of possessed Rinoa. Just events from the games story, that go along with the clips with other cast members. Hell, several of the scenes from the opening FMV involving Rinoa never actually happen in the game, and some like I pointed out are just other story events with new backgrounds, like the Squall/Rinoa embrace at the sunset which is based off the cutscene when Squall frees Rinoa from the cryo-freeze.

You're missing the point. The time stated is never definite and Odine's words barely hold any weight. We never see this Junction machine she supposedly uses and the fact the Orphanage has been rebuilt and is in the same geographic location leads me to believe that the 'far' future isn't really an absurd length of time long into the future. Hell, SeeD still exists during Ultimecia's time period. You would think this organization would have long died out if it was something like 600 years into the future. Also, these assumptions aren't based on much either. If anything 'far into the future' could mean 30 years or even less.

I wouldn't discount Odine, he is the games premier specialist on Sorceress' and considering he spent time with Edea who does have significant knowledge on Ultimecia and was the first to mention she hails from the future. Odine uses the term "many generations", generations are a span of 30 years (give or take) but he also mentions its many, implying more than one generation in the future. The least amount of time is going to be 60, and its claimed by the most reliable sources in the game. I really can't see how much more proof is needed than that.

As for the Orphanage, you forget it shorly transforms into a nightmare structure as soon as the party gets to the beach. The whole structure changes into a ghastily structure of pipes and chains, they are also moving through Time Compression itself so its very likely the Orphanage they are going through is the one of their memories as kids, which changes into reality when they reach the outskirts of Ultimecia's castle.

For the SeeD's, its all members of the Whie SeeDs, who are such a secret faction even the regular SeeDs didn't know they existed until the events of the game. I can see that kind of secretive organization lasting much longer than a mercenary force. Century old secret orders are not even uncommon in our world.
********************************************************************

Reflect on your...Childhood...Your sensation...Your words...Your emotions...Time...It will not wait...No matter...How hard you hold on...It escapes you...And...

Perhaps she was saying these things because time made her lose her memories?

I'd say Griever's entire existence in that fight, the junctioning, and then that quote really put up a lot of openness in the theory.

Considering Rinoa is not involved at all in the casts childhood, I would argue her words would hold more meaning if we were debating if Ultimecia is Edea. Rinoa does not have to be in the final battle party, so her lines don't necessarly apply. I would argue that her lines are just a very poetic way of speaking her own regret and fear of death.

I still say Griever's existence is simply Ultimecia intimidating the party and trying to unnerve Squall, while stalling for time.

Except, fan translations shouldn't be taken literally. If they could make a mistake in translating FF7's information about Sephiroth then I don't see why they couldn't have made mistakes here as well. Was Square Enix ever asked to confirm or deny anything by any fans? If a 'nudge, nudge - wink wink' is what you're looking for then check out Squall's story in the first Dissidia, in which Ultimecia's equipment is a 'dark' version of Rinoa's and she asks to dance with Squall as a joke.

This would literally be a visual example (its literally a relationship chart), nothing you can screw up there,by translation. It outright confirms Squall and Laguna's relationship. As for fans asking, R=U is popular on the net, but from what I've gathered, its a minority. Chances are most fans wouldn't ask about it.

Her weapons are named after Rinoa's but they are not dark versions of them. Ultimecia borrows a lot from other elements in the game. She has Pulsar Shockwave, most of her attacks are named with a Knight motif, her Ultimate Attack is a play on Squall's Renzoken, even being called No Heart as opposed to Lionheart. Squall also confirms to Ultimecia that he has to go back and meet up with someone (a reference to his famous promise to Rinoa). Once again, no one blinks about this as though we should allude that Ultimecia is Rinoa. Hell Ultimecia states her only goal with Time Compression was to create a world of frozen time where everyone would worship her as a god.

Yet the real issue here is that Ultimecia isn't the only character whose weapon set-up is either wrong or a reference to another character in Dissidia, most of the villains have altered weapon set-ups since they were never confirmed in the original. Terra uses Rods and Staffs despite them being one of the few types of weapons she can't equip in VI, Kefka's Ultimate weapons are Flutes and Harps despite the weapon type not being in VI, all of Tidus' weapons are actually Wakka's weapons, and a good chunk of the specialty weapons are made up. I'd say they wanted to include Rinoa in some capacity into the game much like Wakka and the best way is to incorporate their weapons.

If Ultimecia lived so long into the future as you claim it would be more logical to presume that history forgot him. Anyway, the problem isn't the junctioning itself but the obvious symbolism. Rinoa can't really be a 'sacrifice' if she survived.

I'm mostly trying to stay open to the idea she may be closer to their time, but I do believe Ultimecia is from a distant future by a few hundred years.

Sacrifice doesn't mean it has to be killed, but really, she was technically sacrificed by Seifer, since Adel is slowly killing Rinoa and is only prevented from doing so by your parties intervention.

If we're going by symbolism though, Greiver is said to come from Squall's mind in the Scan. Assuming she didn't create Griever in thin air but simply summoned him, wouldn't the Scan info imply Griever is with Squall and not Rinoa? Especially when the game states that GFs rest in a section of a persons bran which causes the memory loss? The theme itself that plays when Ultimecia junctions with Griever is Maybe I'm a Lion, which the title clearly points to Squall whose symbol is the lion.

Going back to Rinoa being Junctioned to Adel, she's not really in a cross figuration, of anything, she's being worn like a necklace and is more of a Y shape than anything. The other issue here is that the cross has a different meaning in Japanese than it would in Western Cultures, so its very likely the imagery is more meaningful to us than the writers and artists.

If that was the case then why did she make those abominations out of GFs she acquired? The ones in her castle that you can fight before facing her.

The bosses you face in her castle are simply monsters and they could have been there all the time as guardians of her fortress.If she did create them, she could have done it long before the party ever got there. She does rule the future.

It seemed more like Time compression was slowly desolving to me. She could've just gone into her final form and attempted to trounce the party or done it anytime before the party reached her.

She's killing time to get Time Compression going, only in her final form do they mention she's absorbing time and space through the Scan spell. She even implies to the party when they meet that Time Compression is incomplete. I feel this is the safe bet here. Besides, if the whole point of this was to get powerful enough to avoid death, then it seems silly to me to piuck a fight with a hlaf completed spell when she could have simply ran away, and tried again later. Besides, when characters are killed in battle they get absorbed into time, and I don't think that would be going on if Time Compression was winding down. The truly mind freaky stuff doesn't even begin until after Ultimecia is killed anyway.


********************************************************************

Nah, it's all good. I just wish you hadn't wrote such long-winded paragraphs. I use to write a lot like that back at gamefaqs but later felt silly over arguing so much over video games. xD

This is normal for me. You should have been here in the old days when I used to debate about FFVII. Those threads went on forever...

But yeah, no reason to get moody over video games. I suppose this discussion is rather pointless since no matter what, it seems like both of us are set in our beliefs. I honestly cannot stand Final Fantasy 'ultimanias' and 'compilations'. Tetsuya Nomura seems hellbent on turning Sephiroth into some sort of Galactus-wannabe and I never liked that.

From what I've read, Kitase is more to blame, though Nomura has been the one to deny that Sephiroth is sympathetic and should be thought of as pure evil. Nomura certainly has a hand in writing the 10th Anninversary VII Ultimania but in actuallity, he hasn't done much for the Compilation. Mostly AC and Last Order, the rest of his contribution is just character designs, but yeah, Sephiroth is an overrated villain.

[Felixrush]

Yes, because Kiros pretty much says it and there are a number of signs and dialogue in the game to confirm it. Whereas Griever has one incredibly ambiguous scene that I feel within context was meant to be a symbol of Squall which made sense cause his consciousness was within Rinoa at the time. Even if Rinoa can't remember it cause of memory loss or being unconscious, Squall was there in spirit, yet he says nothing. Also, Squall and Laguna's relationship is intriguing, but not actually important to the plot, its indirectness can be forgiven cause its actually irrelevant to the plot, whereas the Griever issue sounds like a significant plot element if it saved Rinoa's life and eventually caused her to be R=U. That's not a plot element you leave minor breadcrumbs for only a select few to catch onto, that's a game changer and I feel only an amateur or a complete pretentious douche of writer would pull.

My real question here, is why does Squall have a ring when he always wears gloves?

Except FF8 thrives off being as subtle as possible. Many people compare it to other FFs in which those games make it a point to tell the watcher what the plot is. FF8 doesn't do that. FF8's plot and ending is specifically made not to do that. You're never even told the full effects of Time compression and heck, there's never any real confirmation about Julia being Rinoa's mother either but we know that it is true.

That I did, but considering we know that Ellone's powers work in real time(every Dream sequence is followed up by one not participant, usually Rinoa, mentioning the characters had been out for a good chunk of time, and yet Squall is only bale to experience very small parts of Laguna's life), means that Rinoa was most likely not able to see a good chunk of her memory, Ellone pretty much brought her back immediately so its very unlikely Rinoa saw anything significant. Even if she did, its surprising it goes completely unmentioned by her. As soon as the ordeal is over, Rinoa never mentions anything concerning her brief moment in time in Adel's past. Once again, if this was meant to be a significant plot element, I feel it would have been elaborated on much more than just one line of dialogue and then forgotten completely.

Again, FF8 was about subtlety. Notice how there are lots of, including in the ending, seemingly 'insignificant' moments.

If they were often incorrect, then I feel you could give more than one example, especially one that the fan-translators themselves found and later corrected. The other issue here, is that we know VIII has translation errors and localization changes of its own, so its not like we can even use the games own script as absolute truth either since by your definition its just as faulty.

Uh, no. Professional translators are obviously more reliable than a bunch of fans, with questionable credentials, giving answers on things.

There really is no reason to discount translation projects that are the result of a collaboration of die hard fans. Of anything, I feel that die hard fans are more likely to be as accurate as possible because they care more, as opposed to some guy who is simply hired for the job and this will be one of a stack of other translation projects they will be working on. Its not like SE has ever proofread or cared about the translation and localization quality of their games, as long as they are readable and bring in a profit. The series has been marred with translation errors and poor localization all the way up to FFX. So honestly, I would rather place my lot with the fans who actually have a reason to care about the accuracy of the work. Especially if they are willing to admit they are wrong, and mistranslated. I study Japanese, its a very ambiguous language based on context rather than definitive statementsm mistakes can happen.

FFX's 'mistranslations' usually had to do with certain aspects in Japanese culture that couldn't properly be translated into Western cultural beliefs. The ambiguity didn't help. Thus they changed some lines. And if you're gonna argue FF7's translation then let me stop you there by pointing out that was entirely Sony's fault as they did the translation.

Also, while the Sephiroth example you gave is from the Ultimania, I can elaborate further by pointing out its from the Creator Interview section of the Advent Children Ultimania (for smurf sake, I hate the Compilation , yet I know this how?) which was a statement made by Kitase if I remember correctly. The translation error comes from him saying "there is no one above Sephiroth on the Planet" and honestly, if you took this line out of the interview's context, it does sound like a definitive statement about Sephiroth in the FF mythos, but when put into the context of knowing the interviewer asked about how strong Sephy was in AC when he fought Cloud, it makes more sense that he meant in VII's world. I honestly don't see this as a major mistake. Even if Kitase did make such a statement, he's already admitted that VII is his favorite game he made, and he was the most gung-ho about the Compilation (Nomura just wanted to do a simple 30 minute video), and can only claim creative contribution on five FF titles out of 14 games total, so I don't think anyone but fans of VII would take his statement clearly. Even then, there has been other off the wall statements made by Kitase and Nojima that received such negative outcry that SE has never brought it up again, making some fans believe they have gone back on that statement.

And I can similarly argue about the ambiguity of Japanese regarding such statements as you have done. People go off-the-wall on the percieved meaning behind the words and they may be completely out of context. Fan translators do not seem to recognize the significance of context when making translations. They translate things to their most literal meaning. A professional translator typically doesn't make such obvious mistakes.

Well yeah, Ultimecia is from the future and Ellone can't send people to the future. Also, Ultimecia was a consciousness inside Rinoa that was sent along with her. Its no different from when she would send Zell or Squall in the past, or when Squall's consciousness was sent into Rinoa's while Ultimecia was in control. Squall (and the player) didn't see Ultimecia's past,he simply heard her thoughts when she noticed him. It would be no different here.

Except we're speaking of memories and they're not relative to time in this respect.
**************************************************************

You forgot to mention that years went by, its not like little Squall's Elle looks like grown up Ellone. So its not just the GFs here. I know I couldn't recognize people I went to high school with, if I saw them now.

We're speaking of the only person he loved as a child, not random high schoolers. Squall didn't even remember her real name, just the nickname he had for her.

The issue here, is that other people like Quistis and Zell have completely forgotten about the orphanage yet Squall remember part of, the part that is most important.

He doesn't remember her though. You're forgetting that he didn't even recognize Ellone in Laguna's past. That shows profound memory loss.

You're avoiding my question though, if Rinoa was going to have her memories lost due to having a hidden GF on her and then have Adel's memories corrupt her personality, how is this possible if the last scene in the game clearly shows Squall and Rinoa kissing and implying a happy ever after? What happened to Squall and the others, how did they let Rinoa degenerate this badly and not done anything? I find it hard to believe that they wouldn't do anything, and this creates a major plot hole in the R=U theory that I feel should be addressed to establish this theory as canon.

Except, you're ignoring the earlier scenes of the ending. You're saying there are 'holes' based off only your interpretation of the ending. Your interpretation isn't an absolute. And the ending showing that things are fine after Ultimecia's defeat doesn't mean that they always will be in the future. Heck, the entire last segment could just be a dream. It's open enough of an ending to be considered such.

The Ultimania doesn't touch on the ending (the actual VIII Ultimania doesn't even go into Adel or Ultimecia, most of the ubfo on these two come from the FF 20th Anniversary Character Ultimania, There is a scenario Ultimania as well but not much has been translated from that), mainly cause VIII's Ultimania is simply glorified strategy guide with a few extra tidbits of info (mostly on the machines and vehicles, and notable NPCs in towns) like explaining terms in the game, like what GFs are, what is a witch, and a short story by Nojima about Hyne and the origin of the Witches.

All of which was included in the original game. A 20th anniversary Ultimania is obvious cash cows to manipulate peoples appreciation for past final fantasies. After so many years, you can't expect the creators to be keeping tabs on a story they completed decades ago and are obviously prone to error. In fact, this is what I hate most about Ultimania's. There could be a mistake in translation and the fan dumb will argue it's 'irrefutible truth' when the creators could just be lazily adding info that contradicts the original game's information. If it contradicts the original game then it's obviously wrong and the creators have made an error but no one sees it that way.

Personally, I feel that witnessing an event that didn't happen in the game, right there disqualifies taking anything in the first five minutes of the ending as having significant plot value, pretty much null and void. Squall is obviously hallucinating, not getting the 2001: Space Odyssey treatment, o some kind of divine revelation. I just don't think its significant evidence. So what if it flashes an image of Ultimecia's final form for a split second that is so fast if you blinked, you would miss it, that doesn't make it significant, that makes it so obtuse, only someone really bored would pick up on it. As for her getting some airtime in the ending, its in the middle of you watching a massive collage of every cast member from every cutscene in the game. Hell the first of these flash images in the ending is of Seifer but it doesn't mean its actually significant.

Again, your personal interpretation is not absolute fact. Aside from which, the image with Seifer was from the cut scene where he pushed Rinoa towards Adel. For all we know, Squall may be dreaming, he may be witnessing the original timeline, or he could even be losing his memories. There's even an image of Squall with a black hole for a face near the end before the scene with Rinoa's spacesuit shattering in space. For all we know, he could be witnessing a world in which he ceased to exist or never did in the first place and it wouldn't even be stretching any elements of the plot for that to be accurate.

I feel that Squall is simply trying to hold onto something. He's trapped in the remnants of Time Compression and needs to find something to hold onto in order to get back to his own time. Course, having spent most of the game as a loner, he doesn't have the strong emotional bonds to do this easily and simply is struggling to remember Rinoa while the warping of time and space takes its toll on his psyche. That's the reason why he flashbacks to so many events in the game, its because Squall is practically watching his life flash before his eyes. Its not until he finds his most honest feeling about Rinoa, which was when he thought she died in space, that Squall makes his connection, and what do you know, two seconds later in the video, Rinoa shows up to comfort him from the post-TC existence he found himself trapped in. That's my interpretation of the beginning sequence at least.

Key word being interpretation.

I feel the ending was suppose to be ambiguous but I feel it still correlates to the games theme of love and opening up to others, and I feel the end finds a bizarre way of getting a last little moment of throwing the theme into the players face. At least it sticks with you.

The ending could just be there to give the player a false sense of happiness. Now why would they do that? Do you think it unlikely? Why did they show Laguna proposing to Raine only to see the image of her gravestone a few moments later? That obviously wasn't a happy ending.

This is pretty much the Evangelion ending all over again, except no one is claiming that Gendo Ikari is an older Shinji who has time traveled into the past to affect the Instrumentality Project, and change the future.

No, instrumentality was about moving on from loss and being able to change your life at any given point based solely on your attitude towards yourself. It wasn't really shown to have much, if anything, to do with time travel. But that's my interpretation so take it with a grain of salt.

Incorrect, all the Rinoa footage is simply from the cutscenes and the closest you get to "possessed Rinoa" is the FMV sequence where Rinoa tries to place the Odine Bangle on Edea. Most of the footage of Rinoa that isn't the warped Dance party intro, are just a hodge podge of the sequences from the games opening FMV to Squall rescuing Rinoa at the Garden Battle and the Sorceress Memorial. There is no footage of possessed Rinoa. Just events from the games story, that go along with the clips with other cast members. Hell, several of the scenes from the opening FMV involving Rinoa never actually happen in the game, and some like I pointed out are just other story events with new backgrounds, like the Squall/Rinoa embrace at the sunset which is based off the cutscene when Squall frees Rinoa from the cryo-freeze.

Actually, the cut scene with Seifer is an image after he pushed Rinoa to Adel, the cut scene with Rinoa was when she was turned dizzy thanks to Edea's hair magic, and the other cut scenes have events that supposedly never happened. In all honesty, they could have embraced in the sunset after Rinoa rescues him. Rinoa dancing around in the field of flowers and other such things also could've happened. It's all meant to be open to interpretation anyway. We could be looking at the original events before Ultimecia's time mess-up for all we know.
But again, it's all interpretation, and specifically geared for individual interpretation.

I wouldn't discount Odine, he is the games premier specialist on Sorceress' and considering he spent time with Edea who does have significant knowledge on Ultimecia and was the first to mention she hails from the future. Odine uses the term "many generations", generations are a span of 30 years (give or take) but he also mentions its many, implying more than one generation in the future. The least amount of time is going to be 60, and its claimed by the most reliable sources in the game. I really can't see how much more proof is needed than that.

Again, he has absolutely no proof of anything he says about her. If anything, he's just stroking his own ego. The fact SeeD even exists in her timeline leads me to believe that Odine overshot how far into the future it was. The landscape hasn't even changed, neither has the orphanages look after apparently being rebuilt.

As for the Orphanage, you forget it shorly transforms into a nightmare structure as soon as the party gets to the beach. The whole structure changes into a ghastily structure of pipes and chains, they are also moving through Time Compression itself so its very likely the Orphanage they are going through is the one of their memories as kids, which changes into reality when they reach the outskirts of Ultimecia's castle.

No, they get forced into time compression, fight a bunch of sorcercesses all over time, and then they seem to land into the future, in which the orphanage seems to have been rebuilt in the relatively same decourium. The party exits the orphanage to find Ultimecia's castle and the chains as well as dead SeeDs.

For the SeeD's, its all members of the Whie SeeDs, who are such a secret faction even the regular SeeDs didn't know they existed until the events of the game. I can see that kind of secretive organization lasting much longer than a mercenary force. Century old secret orders are not even uncommon in our world.

The White SeeDs make even less sense since it's a bunch of kids growing up together on a ship. Unless they took in more people, it couldn't be possible. Even then, you would expect some changes if it's really an absurdly long time in the future, not just with SeeD but with the overall structure of the world. Doc Odine doesn't even give you a definite time on how far into the future it is. It's all speculation.
********************************************************************

Considering Rinoa is not involved at all in the casts childhood, I would argue her words would hold more meaning if we were debating if Ultimecia is Edea. Rinoa does not have to be in the final battle party, so her lines don't necessarly apply. I would argue that her lines are just a very poetic way of speaking her own regret and fear of death.

'Childhood' could easily mean Squall's entire FF8 journey. He's roughly 17-18 near the end of the game. Holding on, with time not waiting, could easily be a reference to his love for Rinoa. But again, it's open to interpretation.

I still say Griever's existence is simply Ultimecia intimidating the party and trying to unnerve Squall, while stalling for time.

It would essentially be the same thing for either of our theories.

This would literally be a visual example (its literally a relationship chart), nothing you can screw up there,by translation. It outright confirms Squall and Laguna's relationship. As for fans asking, R=U is popular on the net, but from what I've gathered, its a minority. Chances are most fans wouldn't ask about it.

Her weapons are named after Rinoa's but they are not dark versions of them. Ultimecia borrows a lot from other elements in the game. She has Pulsar Shockwave, most of her attacks are named with a Knight motif, her Ultimate Attack is a play on Squall's Renzoken, even being called No Heart as opposed to Lionheart. Squall also confirms to Ultimecia that he has to go back and meet up with someone (a reference to his famous promise to Rinoa). Once again, no one blinks about this as though we should allude that Ultimecia is Rinoa. Hell Ultimecia states her only goal with Time Compression was to create a world of frozen time where everyone would worship her as a god.

A visual example isn't a translation then. Ultimecia also never stated such a thing... not to my knowledge. The entire game alluded to time compression and what it was but it was never outright stated.

Yet the real issue here is that Ultimecia isn't the only character whose weapon set-up is either wrong or a reference to another character in Dissidia, most of the villains have altered weapon set-ups since they were never confirmed in the original. Terra uses Rods and Staffs despite them being one of the few types of weapons she can't equip in VI, Kefka's Ultimate weapons are Flutes and Harps despite the weapon type not being in VI, all of Tidus' weapons are actually Wakka's weapons, and a good chunk of the specialty weapons are made up. I'd say they wanted to include Rinoa in some capacity into the game much like Wakka and the best way is to incorporate their weapons.

But did the others have quotes alluding to an event that happened between the main character and female lead?

I'm mostly trying to stay open to the idea she may be closer to their time, but I do believe Ultimecia is from a distant future by a few hundred years.

I believe I've already mentioned the problems with this, such as landscape, and our own interpretation of the same information.

Sacrifice doesn't mean it has to be killed, but really, she was technically sacrificed by Seifer, since Adel is slowly killing Rinoa and is only prevented from doing so by your parties intervention.

Sacrifice does mean they're killed... it's most commonly used as mentions of a ritual killing and considering the symbolism...

If we're going by symbolism though, Greiver is said to come from Squall's mind in the Scan. Assuming she didn't create Griever in thin air but simply summoned him, wouldn't the Scan info imply Griever is with Squall and not Rinoa? Especially when the game states that GFs rest in a section of a persons bran which causes the memory loss? The theme itself that plays when Ultimecia junctions with Griever is Maybe I'm a Lion, which the title clearly points to Squall whose symbol is the lion.

I believe I mentioned Ultimecia's subconscious continued love for Squall, whom she forgot. At least, that's how I interpreted it.

Going back to Rinoa being Junctioned to Adel, she's not really in a cross figuration, of anything, she's being worn like a necklace and is more of a Y shape than anything. The other issue here is that the cross has a different meaning in Japanese than it would in Western Cultures, so its very likely the imagery is more meaningful to us than the writers and artists.

There a several problems with your conclusions here. First, the Y-shape is also a symbol for the cross, especially with how Rinoa is junctioned. Second, most people wear the symbol of the cross around their neck..., and finally, the cross has had the same meaning regardless of the religion. It's not solely unique to just Western religion such as Christianity. It's in Buddhism, Hinduism, and other Eastern religions. The tales and symbols of what is commonly regarded as 'the Cross' have existed before the story of Jesus Christ was ever mentioned. The cross has always meant suffering and eventual death. It's happened to every 'Messiah'-like character in ancient religious or folklore stories. There's Christ, there is Buddha (Buddhism being the dominant religion in Japan), there's Kristna, and a whole lot of other mythos that have been lost in history.

Regardless, however, the symbol is not different depending on the region. Much unlike the swatstika symbol, which is commonly held as an image of Nazism in Western culture, yet (ironically enough) means love, peace, and mercy in Eastern Cultures long before the Nazi's stole the symbol.

The bosses you face in her castle are simply monsters and they could have been there all the time as guardians of her fortress.If she did create them, she could have done it long before the party ever got there. She does rule the future.

The scans mention that they were formerly GFs. It probably isn't even a stretch to say that some of them are twisted versions of what the party uses, regardless of if you believe the R=U theory or not.

She's killing time to get Time Compression going, only in her final form do they mention she's absorbing time and space through the Scan spell. She even implies to the party when they meet that Time Compression is incomplete. I feel this is the safe bet here. Besides, if the whole point of this was to get powerful enough to avoid death, then it seems silly to me to piuck a fight with a hlaf completed spell when she could have simply ran away, and tried again later. Besides, when characters are killed in battle they get absorbed into time, and I don't think that would be going on if Time Compression was winding down. The truly mind freaky stuff doesn't even begin until after Ultimecia is killed anyway.

I'll actually agree on this part. Though, it seems to be that she may have started it up a second time during the battle so the party would disappear by being absorbed into time. They also do comeback once you've defeated (not killed) her which could mean that she brought them back herself after being defeated. I also find it a bit curious that she has two of herself in her final form. Possibly a split personality?


********************************************************************

This is normal for me. You should have been here in the old days when I used to debate about FFVII. Those threads went on forever...

X_x; Nah, I've had FF7 debates to last a lifetime. lol

From what I've read, Kitase is more to blame, though Nomura has been the one to deny that Sephiroth is sympathetic and should be thought of as pure evil. Nomura certainly has a hand in writing the 10th Anninversary VII Ultimania but in actuallity, he hasn't done much for the Compilation. Mostly AC and Last Order, the rest of his contribution is just character designs, but yeah, Sephiroth is an overrated villain.

Possible spoilers for FF7 below:



I wish they hadn't even bothered. Not only did they make Sephiroth into Galactus's wannabe version, but they made him look more girly, and gave him this strange homosexual interest in Cloud. Now, it seemed to me that Jenova was the one torturing Cloud and that Sephiroth didn't care to bother with Cloud and only wanted the black materia... but even that's interpretation and I suppose wrong thanks to the compilation.

[Serapy]

I agree with the norm that we shouldn't use the Ultimania as a only-one-thing to prove or disprove something from the original game completely. For example, using the "Witches have normal lifespans" text from the Ultimania to disprove the R=U theory completely.

There are certain inconsistencies, retcons, changes and new additions between Ultimanias and thier original games. Not to mention thier spin-off games as well. The Ultimanias may be canon but they're still not the best material to question a theory. This is why I refuse people who says "R=U is not true because the Ultimania says so!"

Interesting theory, but I disagree, for a start, you claim that Squall's ring was the summon itself, but I beg to differ, if squall had this GF then why did he not use it during the game?

Griever may be a GF but it doesn't function like the other normal GFs. Griever is more like a symbol of character or simply put, a very special GF. To summon this special GF, you need to have a stronger magic, such as Ultimecia's power.

Thirdly, when Squall and Co go to Trabia, didn't they agree to keep a diary or some such? coupled with the fact that they are all seen through the camcorder at the final scene, Squall and Rinoa are together... hell, Ultimercia could even be a descendant of Squall and Rinoa's progeny (now waits for Seraphy to pounce on the idea).

The diary and computer incident in Trabia? Well, that's a different story because it's relevant to S=R (Selphie = Rinoa).

I'm falling apart but as for the ending, honestly, there's just something spooky about the ending.

This is the picture after when Selphie tells the cameraman to point at Rinoa:



Forget the blue texts. Everything before this picture and the next two pictures, Squall never showed up.

Ok, then right when the battery of the camcoder dies, you will then see the symbolism of Rinoa's (she starts pointing at the star) towards Squall. Coincidence? This is the picture of when she's completing her symbolism:



Then I captured a picture of herself about 100 msec before the camcorder FMV ends and then I compared it to the next FMV when Squall showed up:



Ok, let me tell you. From the camcorder FMV, she SMILED with her teeth visible. Whereas, in the final FMV (where Squall shows up), she smiles with lips closed... JUST like the one from the beginning (at the party).

Look, if you say to me "oh, just an animation error". Well, seriously... you cannot accidently make someone smile with teeth visible. What I'm sayin is... they did this on purpose. I'm sure of it!

I'm not gonna tell you what all of this means. I don't wanna de-rail this thread. I'll create a thread about it later in the future.