Squenix to Hold a Dragon Quest Conference Monday

[Bolivar]

And I've already explained that during the actual presentation they said you would be able to play 100% of the game solo. They are NOT going to charge you a monthly fee to play the game solo, even in Japan. That would a completely idiotic business decision and no one would go for it. It is being built as a traditional RPG with MMO extras, not an all out MMO, so it would make no sense to charge a monthly fee unless you're playing the MMO aspect.

Not to mention that I very seriously doubt we will have to pay such a fee outside Japan. Your analogy with WoW and such makes no sense since DQX is NOT a full-on MMO. You CAN play it 100% completely solo. That is not an MMO. Thus it really would make more sense to follow the example of the only Wii RPG with MMO aspects. If there is a monthly fee in NA, I'll eat my hat (thank goodness I own no hats).

I understand you're referring to what they said during the conference. But this information comes from an FAQ posted on SE's website after the conference had ended, in order to clarify what people heard during the conference. And they clarified that you DO need to connect online in order to play past the first few hours and that you DO need to pay a fee in order to do so. The fact that this came after the conference with the intent of clarification leads me to believe that this is more accurate. Don't get me wrong, I hate this prospect as much as you do, not because I want to complain, but because I really want to play this game.

[Wolf Kanno]

I think we have a misunderstanding. My argument was that Nintendo wouldn't try to appease mainstream journalists by bringing those games over here because mainstream journalists have been bashing them for years. You disagreed and said that it's only been recently. I ask you if you follow mainstream journalists. The evidence's strength isn't based on how much integrity these idiots have. The evidence's strength is based on the fact that they've been bashing Nintendo for years.

You misunderstand my point, if these journalist were already bias back when Nintendo was on top of the market and still bashing it then, when their predictions of failure were mistaken for nearly two years, why is their rhetoric any more relevant now, since its obviously bias, and most of them hate the Wii?

Smurf, by that example, you should finally agree that VII is overrated cause people have been saying that for years as well so it must be true they are right. Especially since that rhetoric has been goiging on in FF forums since VII came out.

They did not create a new market. Adults were killing productivity at their jobs at sites like Addicting Games and Candy Stand long before Smart Phones and Nintendo monetized the casual experience. The other half of their market is younger children. I would argue the DS and Wii have simply been the apotheosis of the Nintendo experience, because Nintendo products always brought in young children (how old were we when we were glued to our GameBoys and GBCs?), it's just now they've made such quality titles and enough varied titles to spark any child's interest, that they've really smashed the sales charts. The one area where they have broke new ground is young girls and that is an accomplishment. I never understood the power of the DS until I realized I had just played NSMB with my two little girl cousins who both had DS' and were both under the age of 10. I badly want to discredit Nintendo's accomplishment in this area, but I can't. The one thing I can think of is Tamagachi but even that is questionable.

Still, I disagree that gamers have gotten older or younger. The older crowd now just has an outlet for it on one of the big 3 console manufacturers. And me and almost all of my friends have been playing video games as long as we've been old enough to hold and use a controller. But the young girls crowd? Yeah, Nintendo created that one. But I think they're losing it to Apple.

Tamagotchi is for all ages! Anyway... the market I'm talking about is simply the motion control one, the ability to interact with gaming, which had only been relegated to expensive peripherals with single purposes, course its not like the Wii doesn't fit that description either...

Honestly the Wii brought in elderly people which was pretty amusing (my own gma plays Wii bowling apparently) and I have gamer friends who have parents that bought the Wii for themselves, not for them, which is also amusing cause this revelation to me is usually followed by a "I smurfing hate the Wii" rant. I feel kids will always dabble into video games one way or another but to actually launch a console that entire non-typical demographs of people are buying into is pretty amazing and as I said, I feel it will have a greater social impact than the normal gaming market has the scope to see at this point, cause we're still stuck debating how the X-Box 720 is going to kick the PS4's ass in the next console war. I don't really see how bringing that many age groups and differing backgrounds is not somehow going to have a major social impact years down the road. Hell, our own parents most likely fed our gaming habits simply from the popularity of the arcade scene in the late 70s and the rise of the PC in the early 80s

I think the idea of pure motion gaming is simply just hyberbole created by those game journalist you love so much to get more clicks on their webpage.

I think Nintendo kept the buttons and D-pads because there would lose so many developers. But really dude? You don't think Nintendo hailed touch and later motion inputs as the future of gaming? Do you really want me to dig up the quotables from Iwata, Miyamoto, and Reggie where they defensively explain why they've forgone better graphics and online connectivity (which they now have ironically embraced, relative to this thread)?

They forgone those things cause they know its not needed to enjoy a game and technically the Wii accomplished its goal of creating a system that anyone can play and even today its still leading the market in sales and is close to becoming the second best selling non-portable console in gaming history. It's intuitive to anyone, and that is something that can't be said for anything the Big 3 has released in two decades. The Wii U still uses motion controls despite being developed more for hardcore gamers (oh Nintendo you silly goose, its not going to work) and I am not going to be surprised if both Sony and Microsoft mention that Move and Kinect type features will be coming packaged right into their next generation systems. Kinect itself has actually been a good seller for Microsoft, and it still holds a pretty good record for fastest selling peripheral reaching 8 million units sold in roughly 2 months. Its just Sony who doesn't know how to market motion gaming(it just reached the 8 million mark according to them at E311), but I'm pretty sure they will bring in their own version of Kinect utilizing the Eye Toy in the future. I find it amusing that the company that tried to bring forth the technology and actually has the better tech is kind of dead last in all this. Here I told myself I wasn't going to get into anymore console debates...

Also for touch... I just need to point out the iPad and the fact the Vita has two touch screens to pretty much show you that Nintendo got it right on that one.

And don't accuse me of loving those journalists, b. I've said in this thread and others that they're corny, historically inaccurate, biased, and flame baiting. Never confuse these dudes for my role models (those are Tetsuya Nomura and Yoshinori Kitase!!! )

You have crappy role models.

I assumed Square was creative. Because I just got to Disc 2 of Xenogears and I have to say: wow, dude. Wow. This is probably the most unfinished game I've ever played, although I like to say that Sakaguchi put Fei in his "Time-Out Chair" to tell his little story becasue the gameplay just wasn't up to Square quality . But I guess I could see how this is more of a budget/timing problem than creative interference. It's sad because I read Square was going to green-light a sequel if the game sold 1 million copies and it just hit 900,000 before they all decided to leave... sad.

Considering what else, Square had available at the time, I'd say its gameplay quality was no different from other Square games with FFT being the exception.

I've also heard that resources were taken from the project to be given to FFVIII's development but who knows. If you ever rip all the info from Disc 2, you'll find a references to three more dungeons and some enemy types that never appeared in the game. If you ever check out Perfect Works the resource book, you'll see dozens of designs never used (including 2 Omni-Gears) and background info on the world and characters that were dropped entirely. Still, as an Eva fan, I thought it was a nice touch to simulate Evangelion's no-budget ending. At least Xenogears ending makes sense from the first viewing.

I'm gonna still hold out. This is the golden age of remakes, my friend, and I know sooner or later an awesome edition is going to come out with these games on it and commemorative artwork/memorabilia and it could even be for something I own. The portability is also an issue for me. Don't get me wrong, I loved playing Dragon Quest IV and V on the DS but as I learned with Shining Force II on the HD Sonic collection, these games were meant to be played on a TV. So we'll see.

With this collection coming out, I would say your chances of a remake of the first three anytime soon is not likely. Maybe if SE finally released them for the iPhone I could see it happening. You might be waiting another five years or whenever SE needs to win back the Japanese market.

[NeoCracker]

So basically, DQX is SE's attempt at making their own version of White Knight Chronicles. The game doesn't look bad, but not as interesting as previous DQ games had been. I'll wait and see. I'll probably have to pick it up simply cause NoA doesn't seem interested in releasing some of their other high profile JRPG Wii titles here.

WKC Was actually my first thought when seeing this.

On that note, I got II today!

[Bolivar]

Yay for Neo getting WKCII! I hope to get mine sooner rather than later so hopefully we can have some online adventures together!!

Wolf - I think we got off on the wrong foot. My point is that Nintendo is not likely to release the OpRainfall games because it would get marginal sales yet appease the media, which they could care less about because they've been bashing Ninty for years now. Which I'm confused - first you say they've only bashed Nintendo recently but now you admit they've been doing it for years. Which one is it, my devil's advocate?

Again, as far as creating a demographic, I agree they've created some but I still believe they were simply able to monetize those people's gaming habits if not increase it. My grandfather used to play NHL with me on the Genesis from time to time.

Also have you changed your position on the "full motion input" approach by Nintendo again? Also, please don't evangelize Nintendo for popularizing touch. It's fairly obvious that Nintendo borrowed it from Palm, as well as the devices the word "tablet" used to describe.

My role models rock!

And you really think Xenogears gameplay was up to par with other Square titles at the time? Two words: customization system. As in, you know, Xenogears doesn't have one. Not to mention how little variety there are in the battles or how poor the difficulty is, especially its inability to scale. And if you thinking platforming only became an issue in the Tower of Babel you really need to replay that game, my friend. That was actually the best example of it because it was a scene built specifically for platforming instead of tacking it on. The puzzles are pretty bad as well. Like, really bad. Last, but not least, FF had been moving away from generic dungeon crawls since FFV. Xenogears' dungeons have little to offer other than blowing up your play time, it's clear the team was not acting on an urge to create compelling dungeons.

Anyway, I'm not going to be needing a I-III remake anytime soon. I got a good reading list of RPGs lined up, and DQVI DS, DQIX and a replay of VIII are all in order, and I'm hoping Square Enix releases Dragon Warrior VII as a PSOne Classic, which may be likely because there's apparently a really hardcore RPG fan deciding which games are brought over. I can wait on those games' inevitable Vita/DS/3DS/Wii/PSN remake.

Heyyo before I wrap this up I want to clarify that even if I was someone who lent credence to prevalent theories, I would NEVER go with the "FFVII is overrated" bandwagon. Mostly because in the 14 years of the game's iconic legacy, not a single argument has been able to refute its innovations and original contributions to gaming, or its historic place as a dramatic revolution!!!!1!!21!!!~~!!!!

[Wolf Kanno]

The media's view of the Wii has largely depended on who you asked, so while some supposedly "non-bias" news outlets started on the bandwagon, and turned ugly, others have been doing it since day one cause well, they openly admit they belong to Sony and Microsoft.

While the big M certainly brought the tech to the forefront years before Nintendo, Nintendo's DS imo, bridged the gap of making the technology more respectable as a gaming unit, its not the second best selling gaming platform for nothing. Otherwise it would have stayed as an organization unit, with Pac-Man and Tetris as game diversions, like this tech usually does outside of Japan. Course, I tip my hat off to Apple and Squenix as well, who have actually been heavily supporting the iPad 2 with serious console ports of the early FF titles, FFIII DS port, Secret of Mana and now FFTactics. So while I can meet you half way that Nintendo certainly didn't do this all by themselves, I feel the mass appeal of the system and its contribution of showing gamers new ways to interact with games is not something to be glossed over.

My role models rock!

One has made FF synonymous with crazy anime hair and belt buckles, the other made them synonymous with being easy interactive movies.

And you really think Xenogears gameplay was up to par with other Square titles at the time? Two words: customization system. As in, you know, Xenogears doesn't have one.

Actually it has an old school system of just your equipment, though the Gears actually get some interesting options if you play around with them; like giving Vierge an engine that offers more fuel for lower attack power so you can abuse her Aerods skill, or equipping Magnetic Coats that greatly raise your accuracy and evasion for your gears, or abusing the fact that some of your characters accessories actually affect their gears as well so its possible to beef up Ether skills or give your Gears free Booster ability, or even the Deathblower accessories that unlock the X attack for all your combo levels. Its not FFVI or VII, but this isn't a far cry from Chrono Trigger's system which did the job pretty nicely even if didn't have all the bells and whistles of the FF titles at the time, but we ignore the fact that most of those FF titles took a nosedive in difficulty, making customization a moot point beyond killing time.

Not to mention how little variety there are in the battles or how poor the difficulty is, especially its inability to scale.

This I feel is completely in line with Square titles at the time, difficulty pretty much died at the end of the 16-bit era and the 32-bit era seriously didn't do anything to fix it, in fact I would argue it just made it worse. FFVIII isn't exactly being touted as "most challenging game ever".

As for the battle system, try to name a game that had anything like Xenogears system that existed before 1998? Its battle system itself was unique cause all RPGs simply used menu based Turn based combat. Xenogears offered a level of interactivity that only FFVI at the time could barely choke up and say it does something on par with. Besides, you're a man who loves spectacle in your games, I figure you would enjoy the wire-fu.

And if you thinking platforming only became an issue in the Tower of Babel you really need to replay that game, my friend. That was actually the best example of it because it was a scene built specifically for platforming instead of tacking it on.

Dude, I've played this game for like 10 years now, while I admit the platforming is not great, I don't actually have problems with it cause I gots skillz boy! Yet, I appreciate the fact the game included it cause it created a new means of exploring and interacting with the world. VII brought 3D visuals, but Xenogears actually brought RPGs into 3D gaming which the player could actually move around with and interact and be able to say you have true freedom of movement.

The puzzles are pretty bad as well. Like, really bad.

I'll give you that one, but then again, there are only three RPG series that do them right: Lufia, Wild ARMS, and Golden Sun. You'll notice FF and Squenix in general is not part of that list. Simply because their use of puzzles is usually incredibly simple and serves to break up monotony, whereas the three games I mention, use them as true obstacles and integrate them into gameplay better. No one really remembers getting stuck on a puzzle in a Square game, but ask about puzzles in the other three and you'll get several people mentioning how creative or hair-pulling difficult the puzzles are in the other games I mentioned.

Last, but not least, FF had been moving away from generic dungeon crawls since FFV. Xenogears' dungeons have little to offer other than blowing up your play time, it's clear the team was not acting on an urge to create compelling dungeons.

I would argue they were simply going by old school rules where Dungeons are giant labyrinths, granted Omegasols make this null and void in what these type of dungeon layouts were meant to be, but I actually like my dungeons to be long and maze like, even the linear ones like the one in Solaris is vast and large enough that meeting a fork in the road is enough to make you stop and ponder where you should go next. I feel dungeon design went down the crapper thanks to FF trying to move away from it to make the genre more appealing, and I don't feel making them visual set pieces like they are in VIII-X really gave them justice, and to me, that makes it feel more like padding cause they are short, usually straightforward, and accompanied by easy difficulty and highly exploitative battle systems that I sometimes wonder why the game designers bothered. I'd take getting lost in a Xenogears maze like dungeon slog, over walking ten minutes in a straight line on the Mi'hen Highroad or Mushroom Rock until I either trip over another cutscene or finally meet a boss. At least In Xenogears, I'm still doing something, even if it is simply trying to figure out where the exit is.

Anyway, I'm not going to be needing a I-III remake anytime soon. I got a good reading list of RPGs lined up, and DQVI DS, DQIX and a replay of VIII are all in order, and I'm hoping Square Enix releases Dragon Warrior VII as a PSOne Classic, which may be likely because there's apparently a really hardcore RPG fan deciding which games are brought over. I can wait on those games' inevitable Vita/DS/3DS/Wii/PSN remake.

I'm going to tell you now, if you find issues with all those elements in Xenogears, you are not going to like DQVII, if the game wasn't so damn huge, it could have been a 16-bit RPG. Still, I'll never grasp your love of DQ let alone DQVIII which I felt wasn't as good as its predecessors. To each their own I guess.

[Bolivar]

One has made FF synonymous with crazy anime hair and belt buckles, the other made them synonymous with being easy interactive movies.

And together with Kazushige Nojima, Hironobu Sakaguchi, and Nobuo Uematsu, they've revolutionized video games as we know them and took the medium to a new plateau the universe never could have predicted.

Dude, I've played this game for like 10 years now, while I admit the platforming is not great, I don't actually have problems with it cause I gots skillz boy!

HAHAHAHA you actually win for this statement, but let me indulge:

Customization System - accessories? Really? Most of the games we've brought up have customization systems and awesome accessory systems, namely FFVI which took it to the next level with all the equipment/acc combinations and quirky hidden side loot to fill it with

Difficulty - to me, the hallmark of difficulty in JRPGs boils down to one question: how quickly can you beat this game without grinding? If the difficulty isn't staying adequate enough just playing straight through, RUN! There's more than one reason the run command was integrated into random encounter systems, obviously it's not just for when you're too weak because you'd obviously die. I ran from every battle in the Sector 1 reactor and FFVII actually maintained a really decent difficulty all the way to the end of the game. It was awesome! FFVII 4 LYFE!!!

The problem with the Difficulty is also the Battle System - everything is designed to go down after 1 combo or slightly more. Very few enemies do something unique and usually it's a very cheap way to prolong the battle system, and it's horribly inbalanced so that things drag out for longer than they should in boring stalemates. But the worst part is that you're always engaging in the same EXACT lengthy animations over and over again. That's why FF and DQ are the masters - they know how not to waste your time. It's also hilarious how Xenogears tries to use camera angles like FFVII but it's always the same camera angle and to boot - i've noticed plenty of times where objects are in between the camera and the sprites, obscuring the action!

Puzzles don't have to be hair pulling or overly creative to be effective. They have to be just difficult and creative enough to make you feel like you've accomplished something. That's how you make great pacing. DQ games are littered with neat little novel puzzles that give you that feeling. And I don't think you're giving FF enough credit.

Some of the Dungeon design in FF has been insane, and incorporates puzzles in a lot of meaningful ways. I'm talking specifically about the multi-party dungeon crawls in FFVI, ESPECIALLY the final dungeon which had a lot of great switches, levers, and buttons to make it a great puzzle challenge. I guess I usually don't give VI enough credit because the game actually did a fantastic job at creating compelling dungeons all throughout the game. Then there's FFVIII, whose final dungeon is like a crowning achievement for the series at the time. Tons of great puzzles, a really huge castle.

I think making something a labyrinth, like Xenogears, is a cop-out, especially if that labyrinth isn't compelling. The Solaris trek had only 4-5 different room archetypes, many of which were empty, others with novel items, and still more with the "caged experiments" which was such lame side content. There was no reason to explore the labyrinth or even care what was out there. It was the definition of time waster.

I'm going to tell you now, if you find issues with all those elements in Xenogears, you are not going to like DQVII, if the game wasn't so damn huge, it could have been a 16-bit RPG. Still, I'll never grasp your love of DQ let alone DQVIII which I felt wasn't as good as its predecessors. To each their own I guess.

Here's where we get to the heart of the thread. If DQVII has the same, novel challenges, delightful artwork, wonderful music, quirky dialogue, accessible combat, and constant feeling like you're really accomplishing something, whether it's levelling up or completing neat little puzzles or accomplishing major quests, I'm going to absolutely lose myself in a long journey like that. The DQ games are the opposite of what so many story-focused JRPGs like Xenogears do wrong. And that's take the time to make a good GAME. Because if you're just focusing in 100% on telling a compelling story, all your left with is a really great tale inside of a really bad GAME. I could go on for days about the beauty of DQ, but I'll save that for another day and just come to the realization that:

An online game will have more focus on gameplay. I haven't played IX yet but I can only assume this online-only nature will be good for the title.

[Wolf Kanno]

And together with Kazushige Nojima, Hironobu Sakaguchi, and Nobuo Uematsu, they've revolutionized video games as we know them and took the medium to a new plateau the universe never could have predicted.

Unless you owned an SNES back in the 90s and watched the natural progression of the medium. I'm starting to think you Sega fans were just denied.

I kid, but I refuse to recognize Nojima cause the man has never written a decent story by himself.

Dude, I've played this game for like 10 years now, while I admit the platforming is not great, I don't actually have problems with it cause I gots skillz scallywag!

HAHAHAHA you actually win for this statement,

I felt you would appreciate it.

Customization System - accessories? Really? Most of the games we've brought up have customization systems and awesome accessory systems, namely FFVI which took it to the next level with all the equipment/acc combinations and quirky hidden side loot to fill it with

Actually there is quite a few accessories and armor that grant special skills and abilities much like the Relics (granted they are hidden and acquired through special mini-games and side quests you probably didn't realize were available at the time), but I'll concede its not as good as VI's relic/Esper system or VII's materia in terms of deep customization system, but seeing how you like DQ, I'm surprised this would bother you so much.

Difficulty - to me, the hallmark of difficulty in JRPGs boils down to one question: how quickly can you beat this game without grinding? If the difficulty isn't staying adequate enough just playing straight through, RUN! There's more than one reason the run command was integrated into random encounter systems, obviously it's not just for when yer too weak because you'd obviously die. I ran from every battle in the Sector 1 reactor and FFVII actually maintained a really decent difficulty all the way to the end of the game. It was awesome! FFVII 4 LYFE!!!

Except you had to admit that you had to purposely weaken yer party to get this result by exploiting the running mechanic. While I can't argue against the reasoning, I would argue that this is more counter-intuitive than you would think.

The problem with the Difficulty is also the Battle System - everything is designed to go down after 1 combo or slightly more. Very few enemies do something unique and usually it's a very cheap way to prolong the battle system, and it's horribly inbalanced so that things drag out for longer than they should in boring stalemates. But the worst part is that yer always engaging in the same EXACT lengthy animations over and over again. That's why FF and DQ are the masters - they know how not to waste yer time. It's also hilarious how Xenogears tries to use camera angles like FFVII but it's always the same camera angle and to boot - i've noticed plenty of times where objects are in between the camera and the sprites, obscuring the action!

Yet this brings me to my point about what FFVI, VII, Chrono Trigger, and early PS1 Square titles, is that Square shifted the series from being a difficult dungeon crawl and instead began to focus more on being about plot and story. Gameplay is not really rewarding in this era cause Square began to nerf combat so its faster so you can get thrown back into the story, which is basically the main contribution that Kitase, a man who has said he wanted to work in films, has brought to the genre. It makes the game more accessible but it detracts from the gameplay. The only way to get a challenge out of some of the games in the mid to late 90s is to purposely nerf yerself by either avoiding combat,and choosing not to use exploitative abilities and items. Basically you have to think counterintuitively from the way the designers wanted you to play the game in order to add in the element that they forgot to program in. In my opinion Xenogears is really no worse than VI/VII in this regard.

Also, DQ is the last game I would mention in terms of not having battles that drag on forever. The battle system is always terribly slow and I about fell asleep in some of the boss fights in DQIV where I simply repeated the same strategy every round. They can also be exploited like having a MP restoring item equipped on a character who has the Lightning spells which are DQs equivalents of Flare and Ultima, with this set-up you can easily waltz through dungeons with just yer main hero nuking everything and getting his MP restored before the next battle ensues. Any RPG (hell games in general) can be easily exploited and made completely void of challenge if you know what you are doing and play around a bit.

Puzzles don't have to be hair pulling or overly creative to be effective. They have to be just difficult and creative enough to make you feel like you've accomplished something. That's how you make great pacing. DQ games are littered with neat little novel puzzles that give you that feeling. And I don't think yer giving FF enough credit.

I find DQ/FF puzzles to be pretty simple and not very satisfying at all. Its why I say that Lufia/Wild Arms/Golden Sun are the kings of this because they are challenging and create that sense of accomplishment you crave. While I feel their are some shining examples of puzzle work in DQ and FF, they are few and far between and often view them as how you view labyrinth dungeon design as being just filler. I give FF/DQ props for using them to break up the monotony of dungeon crawling which is the most I feel the puzzles can offer, but I would hardly say they were challenging let alone create a sense of accomplishment.

Maybe when I was 10, it may have created that sense but games like VI and VII are so old that I can't even remember if I had problems with any of the challenges beyond a bit of a time sink for the clock puzzle in Zozo, and the safe combination at Shin-Ra Manor in VII. The major problem with puzzles is that they are only good the first time, they don't have really good replay value unless you make sure to not touch a game for a decade or two.

Some of the Dungeon design in FF has been insane, and incorporates puzzles in a lot of meaningful ways. I'm talking specifically about the multi-party dungeon crawls in FFVI, ESPECIALLY the final dungeon which had a lot of great switches, levers, and buttons to make it a great puzzle challenge. I guess I usually don't give VI enough credit because the game actually did a fantastic job at creating compelling dungeons all throughout the game. Then there's FFVIII, whose final dungeon is like a crowning achievement for the series at the time. Tons of great puzzles, a really huge castle.

To me, this is like comparing apples to oranges and personally I felt VIII only had maybe two good dungeons while the rest were simply straightforward slogs. VI/VII was the last of the inventive dungeon design for FF though IX had a few as well but it seems to me it has died within the mainline games. Once again, pointing out the direction towards more story focus and less game design. DQ itself is mostly a series that subscribes to the long winding labyrinth dungeon approach with a puzzle here and there to break up monotony, which once again, I feel Xenogears does as well. While I prefer more creative and interactive dungeons like the ones in VI/CT/VII my problem is that Square really never took off with this as much as they should have, and even when they try, its not as well implemented as these titles.

Looking beyond Square and Enix, BoF/Wild ARMS and several other RPG titles had very creative dungeons inline with the VI/CT/VII and even Monolith Soft eventually got its act together by the third act of Xenosaga. Yet, I feel that the cinematic dungeon that serves only as a backdrop between cutscenes, popularized by FFX is more of the norm nowadays. How else could I be impressed with DQVIII's gameplay design when all it simply did is follow a formula that is as old as the genre? It just kind of shows how much the cinematics of the genre have taken over in terms of importance over well crafted gameplay and design.

I think making something a labyrinth, like Xenogears, is a cop-out, especially if that labyrinth isn't compelling. The Solaris trek had only 4-5 different room archetypes, many of which were empty, others with novel items, and still more with the "caged experiments" which was such lame side content. There was no reason to explore the labyrinth or even care what was out there. It was the definition of time waster.

I would argue you are simply looking at it from a pure gameplay view and not putting into account the story aspect of what was going on. yer trapped in the belly of the beast, yer on the run, learning Solaris' dirty secrets and now yer trapped in this maze where everything looks the same, and you are moving left and right, and wait... didn't I pass this corridor before? Let['s turn around, wait, I don't remember this...

The dungeon in my opinion is designed to fit the story, while I agree a better approach is to design a dungeon for entertainment, I do feel it has some merit as a storytelling devise, but I would argue moderation should always be uphold for this type of thing and I would concede that Gears fails in this regard.

As for the experiment room, once again, I feel this has more to do with the story than yer gameplay entertainment, it simply exists to tie in the Wels back to Solaris and give you a visual reminder of their importance.

Back to how this is different though, I feel that old style labyrinth type dungeons still have a place in RPGs as a medium as both the MegaTen titles and series like Etrian Odyssey and even DQ itself still hold onto this tradition, where Xenogears falters does come down to the combat being too easy and making Omegasols super cheap... These dungeons only work if the gameplay is built around a item/skill management system. I don't feel the dungeons are at fault but I would agree the easy gameplay is.

I'm going to tell you now, if you find issues with all those elements in Xenogears, you are not going to like DQVII, if the game wasn't so damn huge, it could have been a 16-bit RPG. Still, I'll never grasp yer love of DQ let alone DQVIII which I felt wasn't as good as its predecessors. To each their own I guess.

Here's where we get to the heart of the thread. If DQVII has the same, novel challenges, delightful artwork, wonderful music, quirky dialogue, accessible combat, and constant feeling like yer really accomplishing something, whether it's leveling up or completing neat little puzzles or accomplishing major quests, I'm going to absolutely lose myself in a long journey like that.

Probably not on quirky dialogue but that's cause Enix had a pretty lousy translator. Though it easily wins for having the most eccentric and bizarre cast in the series. I blame that for why DQVIII's cast was made to be more sexy and charming. Course, DQVII has the better Demon Lord (and neither game can top Zoma for me) Just be careful cause the game is a time sink like no other, I think only Disgaea can boast more time needed to actually complete everything. Also, the beginning of the game is really really really slow.... it takes an average of two hours before you get into yer first battle. Still, I consider the game to be one of the better titles. It can't top DQIII as my fave title but its definetly my number two.

The DQ games are the opposite of what so many story-focused JRPGs like Xenogears do wrong. And that's take the time to make a good GAME. Because if yer just focusing in 100% on telling a compelling story, all yer left with is a really great tale inside of a really bad GAME. I could go on for days about the beauty of DQ, but I'll save that for another day and just come to the realization that:

My issue with DQ actually comes from how flat the story and characters are. While I play the series for its charm and sticking to good fundamentals in gameplay, I can't help but feel the stories and characters do nothing for me. Most of the time, the stories are charming like a children's tale, at its best, it is clever which is what I give props for DQIII and DQVII for being, but overall, I can't get caught up in the tales like I can with the FF series, when bad things happen to the cast, I don't bat an eye, but I still haven't forgiven Yuffie for stealing my materia that cheap smurfing whore. I always felt that DQs plot and characters are adequate at best, but they can never stand next to people like Cecil, Fei Fong Wong and Ashley Riot for me in terms of depth and endearment. I feel the DQIII's connection in the Loto Arc is one of the most clever stories in gaming, but its not as gripping and thought provoking as Chrono Cross or BoFIII.

Its why DQ will never be as good as some series for me. Like FF in the later years, I feel that DQ only has the perfect game formula done half right. Still, I find its more simple and charming stories to be refreshing from time to time, cause too many RPGs do try too hard to be pseudo-intellectual nowadays and its nice to play something that doesn't takes itself so serious.

An online game will have more focus on gameplay. I haven't played IX yet but I can only assume this online-only nature will be good for the title.

Most likely, it will be interesting to see how this is going to pan out cause it seems like a weird combo of DQIX meets FFXI.

[Bolivar]

I think, to me, the quality of a video game is viewed on a circle with each element going in different directions from the center: gameplay, art, story, music, etc. You may actually be onto something with us Sega kids - Shining Force is what really got me into this genre. The gameplay isn't as deep as other SRPGs, the story is your standard DQ fare, but those two are just good enough, and the music, artwork, and presentation are so smurfing delightful that it blends together and stays with you as an extremely powerful experience. This is probably why Dragon Quest ended up being one of my favorite series', as I see it having similar strengths/weaknesses to SForce. But I also believe these games are far better balanced than many Square titles from the 90s. All the numbers begin under 20, you can actually see how you're progressing and by how much, you can appreciate that increment and play around with it because it's not just random numbers in the hundreds or thousands and the majority of enemies aren't designed for one hit kills.

Xenogears is a game, on the circle described above, whose radius goes extremely far towards story, a good amount towards music, but nearly every other category suffers. I don't regret playing it - it proved to me that gameplay doesn't matter. It really doesn't. You can have a game like Gears of War that really perfects the gameplay of its genre, innovates a lot of original elements, and even shows you the direction games are heading for the next few years. But a game with a compelling story and and powerful presentation will beat it out everytime as the more memorable experience. I'm getting ready for the final dungeon, I believe, and I'm excited to see it all wrap up, and a little sad to finish the journey, but I'm also looking forward to getting into games with more compelling gameplay (probably gonna pick back up Valkyria Chronicles II on PSP). I'm older now and I need something more from my RPGs to make it worth my while.