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Thread: Do you Think ExDeath is the strongest Villain in the series?

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    Memento Mori Site Contributor Wolf Kanno's Avatar
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    Boco Do you Think ExDeath is the strongest Villain in the series?

    This question stems from an amusing conversation I had with a friend. We were discussing who the strongest villain in the series was and when ExDeath was discussed he pointed out how he's probably the strongest simply because once he gets the power of the Void he can just blink everything out of existence. Light of Judgement? Gone, Meteor? Gone? Ultima? Gone. He could literally just wipe out all the FF villains by just pointing at them. Technically, even before he gains the power of the Void, he's already causing massive earthquakes and destroying huge stretches of the planet with his magic. Thoughts? Debates?

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    Feel the Bern Del Murder's Avatar
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    Really the only thing that I could think of that would beat the power of the Void would be Time Compression. If you had control over time you'd just be able to go back to before Exdeath got the Void and kill him.

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    Memento Mori Site Contributor Wolf Kanno's Avatar
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    Yeah but Time Compression takes time to pull off, I mean Squall's party beat her before the spell was complete, not to mention she apparently needs the power of another Sorceress of comparative power to cast it, meaning its not something she can do by herself. I felt the only comparative Villain is Cloud of Darkness herself, who is literally a physical manifestation of the Void itself. Fire with Fire and both villain required a Deus Ex Machina to actually beat.

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    Yuffie ate my avatar Sefie1999AD's Avatar
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    I was going to say, isn't Cloud of Darkness pretty much the Void itself? Necron also seems like an indestructible force of nature that can take all existence into nothingness. He/she/it even shares Neo-Exdeath's special Grand Cross attack.
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    First of all - I love X-Death. He is one of my favourite villains. So my comments are not based on being a forest-hater.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno View Post
    This question stems from an amusing conversation I had with a friend. We were discussing who the strongest villain in the series was and when ExDeath was discussed he pointed out how he's probably the strongest simply because once he gets the power of the Void he can just blink everything out of existence. Light of Judgement? Gone, Meteor? Gone? Ultima? Gone. He could literally just wipe out all the FF villains by just pointing at them.
    X-Death definitely fails when a greater (will) power confronts him. The void itself was too strong for him and he lost control and there are villains with a will power or abilities which woulnd't even give him a chance to attack them or which would resist. Sephiroth, Ultimecia and I am pretty sure Zemus for example would be a problem for him. They all have a too strong will or certain abilities to be a problem for him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sephiroth1999AD View Post
    I was going to say, isn't Cloud of Darkness pretty much the Void itself?
    The Dark Cloud is a natural power which always talks about the void and many people say it is the void, often I say it myself to make explanations easier, but actually it is not really mentioned that it is the embodiement of the void itself. But it is definitely somehow connected to it.

    The void itself is a power greater than space and time, after all the void existed before space and time existed.

    But X-Death is, even though he is definitely one of the most powerful villains, not the strongest of them. And you may not forget that his greatest power cannot be controlled by him for long. That is one of the main problems.

    Ultimecia for example has a power which is older and greater than the void: Reality and Fiction. She can read minds and make them real. That is how she summoned Griever. Griever was born out of Squall's mind. Of course I do not think she can completely control Reality and Fantasy.

    Chaos is a power as great as the void. But even though he seems to have the power in Dissidia I really don't think Chaos had that power in Final Fantasy. "Chaos" was definitely just thought to be a powerful-final boss name.

    But well - now he has that power.

    Of course there is also a villain whose power is based on "the stronger my will gets the stronger I get - oh, and by the way, my will is the strongest of all and indestructable and can absorb energy and will power to get stronger". But I don't continue here. This is a thread about X-Death and I have already mentioned that X-Death is a powerful son of a tree.
    Last edited by Sephiroth; 10-31-2011 at 12:13 PM.

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    Memento Mori Site Contributor Wolf Kanno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sephiroth View Post

    X-Death definitely fails when a greater (will) power confronts him. The void itself was too strong for him and he lost control and there are villains with a will power or abilities which woulnd't even give him a chance to attack them or which would resist. Sephiroth, Ultimecia and I am pretty sure Zemus for example would be a problem for him. They all have a too strong will or certain abilities to be a problem for him.
    You forget that his will is only overpowered after he has been critically injured by the party. Its not like the he struggled to control the Void before then. The other issue here is that you assume that the Will of the Void is less potent than Zemus, Sephiroth, and Ultimecia's will, if the Void was powerful enough to overcome its own creator, then chances are that Exdeath's will may actually be even greater than all three of them, this can shown by the fact he can still affect the world and control his own minions even after being sealed by the crystals which are pretty much the closest thing to an omnipotent power in the FF mythos. So I would argue that he could probably overpower all three of them, or be able to blink them out of existence before they could break his concentration.

    Ultimecia for example has a power which is older and greater than the void: Reality and Fiction. She can read minds and make them real. That is how she summoned Griever. Griever was born out of Squall's mind. Of course I do not think she can completely control Reality and Fantasy.
    What's the use in having the power to make thought and inanimate object into reality when dealing with a being who controls the power to erase it from existence? I mean, she'll just make some demonic being from Exdeath's mind and then he'll just have it swallowed by the Void. Its at best a diversion if he doesn't just have the Void swallow both of them.

    Chaos is a power as great as the void. But even though he seems to have the power in Dissidia I really don't think Chaos had that power in Final Fantasy. "Chaos" was definitely just thought to be a powerful-final boss name.
    In FFI, Chaos simply has the power to manipulate time bu he is definetly powerful being, yet I felt his greatest threat was the manipulation of time to create his eternal time loop. I don't think he could take Exdeath, let alone half the FF villain cast. In Dissidia he's just much beefier but he really doesn't have the power of the Void, he simply just has enough raw power to tear the cosmos apart but in reality it's Shinryu who has the real power in that game.

    Of course there is also a villain whose power is based on "the stronger my will gets the stronger I get - oh, and by the way, my will is the strongest of all and indestructible and can absorb energy and will power to get stronger". But I don't continue here. This is a thread about X-Death and I have already mentioned that X-Death is a powerful son of a tree.
    You're obviously talking about Sephiroth, but you kind of forget two major facts about his power, first he has never shown the ability to mentally overpower any living being without the being being infected with Jenova's cells. Secondly, while he has gained the power to halt Holy and can hold onto his sense of individuality to remain somewhat sentient within the Lifestream, once again, his will's ability to influence others is limited to Jenova's physical influence, like Geostigma. There is also the fact that his will has been challenged and overcome by Aerith's will within the Lifestream, meaning that while Sephy certainly has a powerful mind, its not as unique and special as fans make it out to be, and its possible the will power of villains from other FFs are on equal standing if not possibly greater. I mean look at Sephy's most similar ancestor in the series, Emperor Mateus, who conquers the afterlife after he's killed and comes back. Not many FF villains can make that claim, and I would argue his willpower may actually be greater than most of the FF villains.

    As for Cloud of Darkness Sephiroth1999AD, I would probably say it has the greatest possibility to overcome Exdeath, since it essentially is implied to be a physical manifestation of the Void itself, and much like Exdeath, required some Deus Ex Machina shenanigans to defeat as well.

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    It has been quite a while since I played FF5, so I don't remember the mythos surrounding the final battle all that well. ExDeath sent a whole bunch of crap into the void, but didn't all that stuff in the void just have the opportunity to seek him out inside and kill him? I mean lets say he sends his foe to the void, couldn't they just seek him out inside and kill him like the heroes did?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno View Post
    You forget that his will is only overpowered after he has been critically injured by the party. Its not like the he struggled to control the Void before then. The other issue here is that you assume that the Will of the Void is less potent than Zemus, Sephiroth, and Ultimecia's will, if the Void was powerful enough to overcome its own creator, then chances are that Exdeath's will may actually be even greater than all three of them, this can shown by the fact he can still affect the world and control his own minions even after being sealed by the crystals which are pretty much the closest thing to an omnipotent power in the FF mythos. So I would argue that he could probably overpower all three of them, or be able to blink them out of existence before they could break his concentration.
    I never forget anything about Final Fantasy so don't write that all the time. There is no proof that it was because the party "reduced his Hit Points". X-Death is just the next generation of Enuo and Enuo was also able to control nothingness for some time but then was controlled by nothingness itself.

    And X-Death simply has no great will. Will power is almost always in Final Fantasy one of the most important facts when it comes to "how to control the strength I want to control". And Sephiroth is written to have the greatest will of all. His will cannot be dominated, that's why he can control JENOVA and that's why he can resist the planet and that's why X-Death cannot beat him in terms of comparing will power.

    And X-Death or Enuo are not the void's creator. The void existed in the nature of Final Fantasy V before Enuo and X-Death, was filled with the four elements and after Enuo released the void's power and was controlled by it the void was sealed in the Cleft of Dimensions. But there is no one who has created it than "nature" itself.

    If you really want to compare X-Death's will power then we can take Zemus. Both were sealed away but still able to use their abilities partly. And yet X-Death aimed to get a power greater than the one Zemus controlled, the void's power which simply needed to control him since the story of Final Fantasy V should repeat. Both Enuo and X-Death traded their immortality (X-Death was at least very hard to kill, no one was sure if he really was immortal, but Enuo was) against the power of the void. But just because I have a Driver's License it doesn't mean I cannot lose control over the car.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno View Post
    What's the use in having the power to make thought and inanimate object into reality when dealing with a being who controls the power to erase it from existence? I mean, she'll just make some demonic being from Exdeath's mind and then he'll just have it swallowed by the Void. Its at best a diversion if he doesn't just have the Void swallow both of them.
    X-Death does not erase existence with the void. The void is paradox. It still is a place, even though it should be no place. Just a place were nothing exists. Until something is inside it. Technically there should be no void then of course. But this is the paradox part. Also the part that in void no time and space exists. But Bartz and the others were able to live and were not frozen when X-Death locked them inside their Almagest. This is a difficult topic because they are natural things were story tellers write what they want.

    The void itself really wanted to end everything in the end. But letting things vanish inside the void is not the same as erasing their existence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno View Post
    In FFI, Chaos simply has the power to manipulate time bu he is definetly powerful being, yet I felt his greatest threat was the manipulation of time to create his eternal time loop. I don't think he could take Exdeath, let alone half the FF villain cast. In Dissidia he's just much beefier but he really doesn't have the power of the Void, he simply just has enough raw power to tear the cosmos apart but in reality it's Shinryu who has the real power in that game.
    The natural power "chaos" is as great as the void. The void is just the balanced version of chaos. And if Chaos, the "God of Distortion", really shall be the embodiement of Chaos he is stronger than X-Death - I mean X-Death without the power of the void, of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno View Post
    You're obviously talking about Sephiroth, but you kind of forget two major facts about his power, first he has never shown the ability to mentally overpower any living being without the being being infected with Jenova's cells.
    Oh really, do I?

    Then what about the official statement that Sephiroth is the being with the greatest and strongest will of all, the fact that Sephiroth blocks Aerith's magic and the fact that Sephiroth overpowers the collective consciousness "Lifestream"? He didn't overpower them because "they had JENOVA cells". He overpowered them because it is in his character script that he is the strongest of all and can only be defeated by teamwork or underestimating Cloud so Cloud could unleash his Hero Bonus factor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno View Post
    Secondly, while he has gained the power to halt Holy and can hold onto his sense of individuality to remain somewhat sentient within the Lifestream, once again, his will's ability to influence others is limited to Jenova's physical influence, like Geostigma.
    No, it is simply not and there is nothing more to say about that. JENOVA and Sephiroth both can intrude the mind of other beings. Iphalna says that to Gast. And only because Sephiroth's pure will power which doesn't have anything to do with physical influence of JENOVA's cells was stronger than the lifestream he was able to get even more stronger. The Ultimania itself talks about Sephiroth's will power and Case of Black as well. Geostigma, et cetera are just some of many ways for Sephiroth to harm the planet and link his existence to others and to continue the story. But it doesn't change the fact that Sephiroth has the strongest will of all and that this would have been the reason why he would have successfully absorbed the whole lifestream when Meteor almost killed the planet. I don't write these things because I love Sephiroth, because I love X-Death, Kefka and Kuja as well. But I write about all of them what they can. And of course I mention the scenes or the Ultimania lines or whatever. So please don't think that I would forget anything. Because Final Fantasy is my daily main topic and about Sephiroth: Sephiroth was made from the beginning as the "super-cool, everyone has to like him because of his look, his power which cannot be surpassed and the things he does"-character. So it is not like I would write garbage here. Sephiroth is intended to be that powerful. The being, more powerful than a collective conciousness full of all life and of the lifeforms which were able to seal his mother away. Aerith even has problems to "clean" the lifestream because Sephiroth is too strong and darkens the lifestream without any problems. And every being, not only Sephiroth which is able to resist the lifestream at least somehow can use at least some of the knowledge inside of it to become stronger. Same for Aerith and Zack is also mentioned in the Ultimania when it comes to will power. And Sephiroth is meant to be the one who is able to resist everything and what Sephiroth resists can be used by him. That is part of his power which becomes even greater then. I would never call characters like Emperor Mateus or X-Death "weak" because the are not. But Sephiroth's whole strength and about how he gets stronger is based on his will power.

    But of course you can think what you want. However then no discussion is needed.

    @VeloZer0:

    It is not like the void is "inside of" X-Death or that Neo X-Death is the embodiement of the void itself, so no one can do that. I don't even know who should be able to do that because Bartz and the others were the only one who were able to destroy him during the final battle. Neo X-Death is just the true form of X-Death controlled by the void but just because the void controls him it doesn't mean those who are locked inside the void could take opportunity of that.

    @ "The party was never engulfed by the void"

    That's wrong. X-Death used the Almagest. The Almagest is the "sphere" of the void. "Sphere" is a bad word combined with void, but there is no better word for it.

    But you always ignore the facts and interprete them. I will not talk to you anymore. I can prove everything I say/write about Final Fantasy. And you cannot because it is simply wrong. You take facts and ignore what they really are. Just like some user here did it earlier. So let's just stop this.

    @"Sephiroth does have the most powerful will, but will doesn't always promise control over your power."

    No, that's wrong. That's what makes Sephiroth so special. His will power is his greatest power.
    Last edited by Sephiroth; 12-27-2011 at 05:50 AM.

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    Memento Mori Site Contributor Wolf Kanno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sephiroth View Post

    I never forget anything about Final Fantasy so don't write that all the time. There is no proof that it was because the party "reduced his Hit Points". X-Death is just the next generation of Enuo and Enuo was also able to control nothingness for some time but then was controlled by nothingness itself.
    I'm just saying, you battle him and it's only in the course of this battle that he was finally consumed by the Void itself. Before that he was kicking ass and taking names with it. I felt that having him as an actual battle before Neo-Exdeath appears is a bit more meaningful considering FFIV used two scripted boss battles before finally squaring off Zeromus. Considering Exdeath isn't killed by the Void but instead transformed into a new being, should also be a testament to his power.

    It is stated that Enuo was defeated by the chosen warriors wielding the 12 sealed weapons and that he lost control of the Void and was consumed by it, it never said he was taken over by it like Exdeath. It simply states he is gone. Whether him appearing as an optional boss in V Advance can even be considered canon is debatable.

    And X-Death simply has no great will. Will power is almost always in Final Fantasy one of the most important facts when it comes to "how to control the strength I want to control". And Sephiroth is written to have the greatest will of all. His will cannot be dominated, that's why he can control JENOVA and that's why he can resist the planet and that's why X-Death cannot beat him in terms of comparing will power.
    First off, Exdeath mind controls four different people while he is sealed away, just so he have them shatter the remaining three crystals, like I said, he's mentally strong enough to control the Void for a certain amount of time and considering the entire FF mythos, the Void is on par with an ultimate force.I would say he shows a great power of will.

    Secondly, you are using a quote by Kitase out of context. Sephiroth has the greatest will in VII not the series. So it is debatable if he could control something like the Void. Also, Kitase really can't speak for the whole series.

    Secondly, Sephy's mental powers have been thrown off twice by Cloud, once when he resisted him when he tried to make him kill Aerith and the second time was in the game's climatic final battle, when Cloud finally overcame his influence. So he can be dominated even in his post-god mode. Hell the Lifestream Novella Black chapter even says the Lifestream does take part of him.

    And X-Death or Enuo are not the void's creator. The void existed in the nature of Final Fantasy V before Enuo and X-Death, was filled with the four elements and after Enuo released the void's power and was controlled by it the void was sealed in the Cleft of Dimensions. But there is no one who has created it than "nature" itself.
    My mistake, I forgot that the ending mentioned the Void existed before. My bad. :sweatdrop:

    If you really want to compare X-Death's will power then we can take Zemus. Both were sealed away but still able to use their abilities partly. And yet X-Death aimed to get a power greater than the one Zemus controlled, the void's power which simply needed to control him since the story of Final Fantasy V should repeat. Both Enuo and X-Death traded their immortality (X-Death was at least very hard to kill, no one was sure if he really was immortal, but Enuo was) against the power of the void. But just because I have a Driver's License it doesn't mean I cannot lose control over the car.
    Except that whole statement doesn't prove anything. Both control people while sealed away, so its comparable but that's it. Exdeath doesn't trade anything to control the Void, he just literally has to destroy the crystals to do so. Yet it should be noted that both Exdeath and Enuo are considered to be the most powerful beings in the FFV mythos and frankly, the game even implies Exdeath is probably greater than Enuo himself.

    You're basically implying anyone can control the Void which the game pretty much just doesn't support. I mean countless demons are sealed in the Rift with the Void, but none of them are trying to wield it, and most of them actually follow Exdeath because he can. A better analogy would be a jet fighter, not a car.


    X-Death does not erase existence with the void. The void is paradox. It still is a place, even though it should be no place. Just a place were nothing exists. Until something is inside it. Technically there should be no void then of course. But this is the paradox part. Also the part that in void no time and space exists. But Bartz and the others were able to live and were not frozen when X-Death locked them inside their Almagest. This is a difficult topic because they are natural things were story tellers write what they want.

    The void itself really wanted to end everything in the end. But letting things vanish inside the void is not the same as erasing their existence.
    You forget that all four of them have the power of the crystals within them, which can explain why they still exist within the Void, and why everything gets fixed in the end because they allow the crystals to be reborn. While I can certainly agree the Void is a bit of paradox with little explanation, I would argue that the fact people who wield it say they can educe things to nothingness with it would be a safe implication that it can do so. As I stated, its not like the party doesn' have their own Deus Ex Machina to allow them to do the impossible.

    The natural power "chaos" is as great as the void. The void is just the balanced version of chaos. And if Chaos, the "God of Distortion", really shall be the embodiement of Chaos he is stronger than X-Death - I mean X-Death without the power of the void, of course.
    Meh, its all a retcon by a team that has only played the original. No one from the original development team of FFI was part of Dissidia and the game is a giant fan service title, I don't think I would take it's Chaos to be the same as Chaos of FFI even though they are meant to be. Even then, Shinryu itself is still shown to be the true god-like being pulling all the strings of Dissidia, considering he is resurrecting people on a large scale, including Chaos, I would say the Dragon has more sway.

    Then what about the official statement that Sephiroth is the being with the greatest and strongest will of all,
    Made by Kitase in context of FFVII alone, not the series. Also, its a statement by a guy who can't really speak for the whole series. Hell, no one really can at this point.

    the fact that Sephiroth blocks Aerith's magic and the fact that Sephiroth overpowers the collective consciousness "Lifestream"?
    Only while he's alive, after his defeat, he is only able to hold onto his sense of self by thinking about how much he hates Cloud. He's lost his memories and other elements of his mind. The Ultimania says he can't even materialize as a spirit cause he can't even remember who he looks like. So while it's impressive he can hold onto his sense of self and even work within the Lifestream (thanks mostly to Jenova's immortal cells) its shown he isn't all powerful. Technically, once Cloud's generation passes, Sephiroth can never truly resurrect, because no one will remember who he is and chances are he Lifestream may overcome him in time since he had to sacrifice so much to remain after the first time.

    Meanwhile, Exdeath sinks an island, creates an impenetrable barrier that covers a large chunk of a continent, and teleport to different planets with just his basic powers. He doesn't even have the Void at this time. The guy literally begins in his game where Sephy ends in his, and Exdeath just gets stronger from there.

    He didn't overpower them because "they had JENOVA cells". He overpowered them because it is in his character script that he is the strongest of all and can only be defeated by teamwork or underestimating Cloud so Cloud could unleash his Hero Bonus factor.
    Except they all do, Cloud is controlled because he can't handle the Jenova cells, he can only manipulate the people with Geostigma and create his "Dark Lifestream" because Geostigma is simply people infected with small traces of Jenova Cells released by the Lifestream during Meteor Fall, and they themselves weaken their consciousness by weakening their bodies. He overpowers Jenova but god knows what Jenova's consciousness is even like, it could just be animalistic for all we know, and Kadaj and his gang are literally parts of Sephy's conscious given material form. He never once mentally overpowers any individual without Jenova cells being part of the equation.

    The Lifestream itself is also never said to have a concentrated conscious will that can be overpowerded, it is simply a "sea of consciousness" that overwhelms a normal mind, and causes Mako poisoning. It is shown with Aerith, that all it may take to control the Lifestream is simply a mind strong enough to maintain a sense of self. The Lifestream itself may actually be mostly directionless and it needs a strong consciousness like Sephy, Aerith, and Gaia to actually give it any direction. Sephy himself never even really shows much control over the Lifestream, he absorbs its power and knowledge instead of being consumed by it after the Nibelheim incident, and then uses its power to fuel the summoning of Meteor, but its never shown him "bending the Lifestream to his will".

    Also, bringing up Sephy's cockiness just shows he would lose, because he would toy with Exdeath and Exdeath would just use the Void to swallow him. He wouldn't know what hit him, just like Omnislash Version. 5


    No, it is simply not and there is nothing more to say about that. JENOVA and Sephiroth both can intrude the mind of other beings. Iphalna says that to Gast.
    Ilfana only says Jenova can read minds to change its shape, she never said she mind controlled them. Jenova drove them insane after infecting them with a virus. Once again, I point out that Sephiroth never mind controls anyone, in the course of several games and a feature film, who doesn't have Jenova's cells within them.

    And only because Sephiroth's pure will power which doesn't have anything to do with physical influence of JENOVA's cells was stronger than the lifestream he was able to get even more stronger. The Ultimania itself talks about Sephiroth's will power and Case of Black as well.
    I can't really argue this, but I would point out Case of Black shows his consciousness is degrading. Of anything, Sephiroth simply has become like Zeromus by Advent Children. A single minded entity, who only regains his sense of true self because of Cloud's memories and Jenova's cells. But this doesn't prove his will is stronger than any other FF villain, it just shows how utterly impressive it is within the VII mythos. As I said, I feel Mateus and Zemus pretty much show off similar levels of mental badass, in their respective games.

    Geostigma, et cetera are just some of many ways for Sephiroth to harm the planet and link his existence to others and to continue the story. But it doesn't change the fact that Sephiroth has the strongest will of all and that this would have been the reason why he would have successfully absorbed the whole lifestream when Meteor almost killed the planet.
    Except your taking a line from a VII Ultimania out of context as a means of evidence to apply to the whole franchise, to prove your point and I'm telling you, Kitase was speaking about VII, not FF in general. Now I'm pretty sure Kitase may actually believe Sephy is the biggest badass in the whole series, but its not like he has not stated VII is his "all time favorite game ever!" but that seriously doesn't mean his word somehow trumps the other dozen writers and creators in the FF franchise. As I've said before, Sakaguchi could make a statement that Gilgamesh is the strongest being in the FF franchise, but it really wouldn't mean it's canon either to most fans.

    I don't write these things because I love Sephiroth, because I love X-Death, Kefka and Kuja as well. But I write about all of them what they can.
    I am being really serious, when I say I don't mean to offend you here, but I thought of this when you made this statement. I mean you have Sephiroth as your avatar name and he's in your sig.

    And of course I mention the scenes or the Ultimania lines or whatever. So please don't think that I would forget anything. Because Final Fantasy is my daily main topic and about Sephiroth: Sephiroth was made from the beginning as the "super-cool, everyone has to like him because of his look, his power which cannot be surpassed and the things he does"-character. So it is not like I would write garbage here. Sephiroth is intended to be that powerful. The being, more powerful than a collective conciousness full of all life and of the lifeforms which were able to seal his mother away. Aerith even has problems to "clean" the lifestream because Sephiroth is too strong and darkens the lifestream without any problems. And every being, not only Sephiroth which is able to resist the lifestream at least somehow can use at least some of the knowledge inside of it to become stronger. Same for Aerith and Zack is also mentioned in the Ultimania when it comes to will power. And Sephiroth is meant to be the one who is able to resist everything and what Sephiroth resists can be used by him. That is part of his power which becomes even greater then. I would never call characters like Emperor Mateus or X-Death "weak" because the are not. But Sephiroth's whole strength and about how he gets stronger is based on his will power.

    But of course you can think what you want. However then no discussion is needed.
    Listen, I understand your sencerity here and I am not going to accuse you of trying to fanboy this whole thing. I even agree with you that Sephy was designed to be the "uber cool super badass ulitmate evil" here, but I feel your basing your own argument on an arbitray line made by one of the development team to state his opinion about Sephiroth in the context of his own game's mythos. Once you knock that out, he has to stand on his own merits within his game, which are impressive, but I feel the other FF villains are equally impressive if not more so with some of their own actions and abilities. Sephy has an impressive willpower, but so do other villains, and the real issue here, is that we can't say for sure how easily it is for the Void to overpower someone. Sephy may just end up like Exdeath if he were to try to take the Void for himself. All we know is that the Void is often times considered to be the ultimate contrasting force to the crystals and life, meaning its a pretty big deal. My feeling is that the fact Exdeath could even control it for as long as he did is pretty damn impressive feat among all the villains.

  10. #10
    VeloZer0's Avatar
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    @VeloZer0:It is not like the void is "inside of" X-Death or that Neo X-Death is the embodiement of the void itself, so no one can do that. I don't even know who should be able to do that because Bartz and the others were the only one who were able to destroy him during the final battle. Neo X-Death is just the true form of X-Death controlled by the void but just because the void controls him it doesn't mean those who are locked inside the void could take opportunity of that.
    I'm not quite sure what this means. What I was asking was that even though some other villains might not have power on comparison to the void couldn't they follow through the plot that the heroes used to defeat Exdeath? Meaning that although he can use void powers on anyone wouldn't a strong enough villain just get sent to the Cleft of Dimension and have a chance to engage him directly from there?
    >>Am willing to change opinions based on data<<

  11. #11
    Memento Mori Site Contributor Wolf Kanno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VeloZer0 View Post
    @VeloZer0:It is not like the void is "inside of" X-Death or that Neo X-Death is the embodiement of the void itself, so no one can do that. I don't even know who should be able to do that because Bartz and the others were the only one who were able to destroy him during the final battle. Neo X-Death is just the true form of X-Death controlled by the void but just because the void controls him it doesn't mean those who are locked inside the void could take opportunity of that.
    I'm not quite sure what this means. What I was asking was that even though some other villains might not have power on comparison to the void couldn't they follow through the plot that the heroes used to defeat Exdeath? Meaning that although he can use void powers on anyone wouldn't a strong enough villain just get sent to the Cleft of Dimension and have a chance to engage him directly from there?
    The Rift and the Void are two different places. This kind of got complicated by Anthologies bad translation and then the Advance port kind of messed things up by having Enuo somewhere within the Rift as well, when the story states he was taken by the Void. When you are swallowed by the Void, you don't go to the Rift, the Void itself was sealed within the Rift so they can't really be the same place. The game never really states what the Void is like, the closest we get is in V's ending when the party is swallowed up into it during the battle with Neo-Exdeath and we see that place that kind of looks like space. Yet, like I mentioned to Sephiroth, the party is imbued with the power of the Crystals which themselves were born from within the Void. So the fact the party is able to move around in there might actually be due to the Crystals influence, we certainly don't see any of the other people or places that were swallowed by the Void in there. Hell, watching the ending again, they never said they were swallowed into the Void itself so it's actually possible the party may still be within the Rift itself, but then I feel the narration of the the origin of the Crystals implies they are actually in the Void itself, if that tongue twister of a sentence makes any sense.

  12. #12
    Ż\_(ツ)_/Ż Tigmafuzz's Avatar
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    Having read this whole thread and beaten pretty much every Final Fantasy except XIII, I'm going to have to say that Chaos himself is, as the embodiment of chaos itself and pandemonium, more powerful than Exdeath, Sephiroth, Ultimecia, or Cloud of Darkness. Exdeath is extremely powerful even before he has control of the Void, but as stated earlier, the Void is basically just the balanced version" of Chaos. Chaos is nature's unpredictability and inevitable tendency towards bedlam and entropy, born from the Rift. The Void is also born from the Rift. They are equal concepts but Chaos has the added bonus of being unpredictable, thus making it more powerful than the consistently boring Void. Sephiroth does have the most powerful will, but will doesn't always promise control over your power. He pretty much goes insane with power, actually. I mean, he blows up the rest of the solar system (multiple times) just to damage Cloud and his party. The man's obviously unstable. Cloud of Darkness is some sort of physical manifestation of the darkness existing within the Void or within people's hearts and minds, I think, but I don't think she's as powerful as the Void itself. And Ultimecia just has some very powerful magic. So in the end I think it's Sephiroth, then Cloud of Darkness, then Chaos and Exdeath tied at the top in terms of sheer power, and Cloud of Darkness, then Sephiroth and Exdeath tied, and then Chaos in terms of overall dangerousness or difficulty in defeating. Plus Minerva and Kaiser Dragon and Shinryu and Omage Weapon and Yiazmat and all them make this whole "ultimate power" debate that much more complicated, because almost every game had a superboss that was as strong as or stronger than the main boss, and seemed to be on the antagonist side. So if Sephiroth could manipulate minds, Cloud of Darkness and Exdeath could manipulate darkness/evil, and Chaos was able to simply control things or even just take their power for himself, any of them could have made themselves more powerful at any time by varying amounts. It's a pointless argument that will end up in "they're all badass in their own way but I personally prefer ***** no matter what" so I think even trying to make any logical points or present your own point of view is moot.
    ...This was fun.
    Last edited by Tigmafuzz; 11-07-2011 at 04:30 AM.
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  13. #13

    Default Wrong.

    First of all I am seeing we are taking into consideration all the aspects of the Final Fantasy games in which a villian is refered to so I am gonna start adressing power measures for the villians I think(based on facts) that are the strongest.

    To start, In my book, Exdeath is the strongest villian in the final fantasy universe.

    Reasons being are:

    1. As stated in the original games, the warriors of Dawn could defeat him prior to his control over the void, but they could never kill him because he was inmortal(in all the meaning of the word) so they had to seal him.

    2. When Exdeath gained control over the void he could "ERASE ANY PART OF THE EXISTENCE WITH JUST A THOUGHT". That statement alone tells you how powerful exdeath really is. In the game he erased many parts of the existence just by a whim and "technically" the heroes(but the plot saved the heroes before they truly dissapear and by that I mean the crystals they had were born from the void so that helpedto savethem)


    3. The Void has been stated to be the nothingness that existed before the creation of the universe itself and also it is not bonded or follow any rules of the universe. As it is stated in the original game and in dissidia "THE LAWS OF THE UNIVERSE MEANS NOTHING" and we all know all Final fantasy universes, despite being separate from each other, they are connected in some way or another to the void. Examples being was Gilgamesh from FFV is heavily implied to be the same Gilgamesh which came out of the rift in FF8. Also the void existed or was mentioned in FF3 and in FFXIV still exist.


    4. Exdeath in the original game threatens the party with "Erasing the universe out of existence" Which clearly indicates Exdeath is on a universal, if not, omniversal level of power thanks to the void.


    5. It has been stated that the void is an infinite source of power and nothing can be greater than the void. So to tell you an example of how powerful the void really is(although we can't measure its true and full power since its infinite) I will put some comparatives examples based on facts.


    a. It is stated in dissidia that Chaos was born from a military project and as chaos grew he became more powerful, until certain event made him open unconciously a rift which lead to the void and then they were threw to the dissidia world.

    b. The whole plot in dissidia surrounding chaos was that Cid had to put Chaos as the bad guy, made him grow stronger and stronger during the cicles of was so chaos can become "POWERFUL ENOUGH" to open a gate to the void so he could escape from that world to the original world. And as you know, Chaos is portraited as the strongest villian(in terms of sheer power) in that game. So what do we have here is that beings like Ultimecia, Sephiroth, Kefka etc etc...they CANNOTcontrol the void with just "will" they need power or something "SPECIAL" (NEXT point)


    c. In the GBA/IOS version of FFV, there was a powerful mage called Enuo, he was inmortal(pretty much like exdeath himself) and he had to give in his inmortality in order to control the void, so it was like a trade. So exdeath in the original game MAYBE(not implied or fact) had to give in something we don't know to gain control over the void and he controlled it just fine.

    Also remember Exdeath lost because he briefly lost the control over the void and the void just erased him out of the existence, meaning that he is THE ONLY VILLIAN so far to have lost not because the party defeated him but rather his own power. It is also stated that the void is like a "sentient thing" so I doubt anyone can control it just because "he or she are powerful" AN EXAMPLE was chaos, he was unable to control it despite being stronger than Ultimecia, Sephiroth, Mateus etc...

    Now to my next point, Things like "Cloud of Darkness" are not the void embodiment, they are more like intelligent beings BORN from the void like many other creatures. This is futher explained in FFXIV where these beings born from the void are called "Voidsents" these things have no power over the void but they can create catastrophes such that can kill the entire world.

    In FFXIV, The allagans were an empire so powerful they could contain beings with planet buster capabilities such as bahamut prime, like they were just pets, they revive and replicate life, could create artificial beings far superior than Bahamut etc etc...could halt time and such. These beings invented a satelite that harvested the sun's energy for thousands of years only to be able to open a small rift that would lead to the void...that alone tells you how powerful the void is.


    Villians like Sephiroth are super powerful and not to be understimated. It is stated that Sephiroth has NEVER fought 100% and that he is always limited or handicaped in some way or fashion. His will within the ff7 universe is absolute and nothing is stronger or above him within that universe. But even so, Sephiroth at full power might be more than a galaxy buster.

    Ultimecia is almost omnipotent if she absorbs time and space, she is one of the most powerful villians in the ff universe, can even create magic by just thinking it. Due to her ability of time compression, she is at a universal level power. And multi universal if she has access to other world.

    Emperor Mateus, at much he should be a planet buster not in the fashion as "blow the planet in one piece" but to burnt it to the ground just like Kefka and Kuja did in their own versions. The Emperor beat Satan and a version of "god" in his world so he must be really powerful when it comes to term of power, but Emperor Mateus best power is his intelligence. In dissidia he almost killed both the heroes and his own allies to ensure he was the only one surviving at the end. Consider him the doctor doom of Final fantasy.

    Kefka is planet buster, reality warper, what else can be said? super powerful, he was a GOD

    Kuja in my opinion is a bit overrated when it comes to facts, he is really powerful, but he is limited to planet busting levels of power.


    Chaos might be planet busting considering that he has all four elements that controls the planet, he can create tsunamis, earthquakes etc...and destroy a planet with natural dissasters, other than that he is inmortal as longas the time loops exist and his sheer power surpass the other villians (raw power)

    And finally there is Bhunivelze. This case is a little special. With the introduction of the god of light Bhunivelze, he puts himself really high in the villians tiers. He was born a god and was always a God,unlike most of the villians who achieved godhood by other means. Bhunivelze can create life and destroy it as it sees fit, he can even create someone almost as nearly as powerful as him(ereshkigal) and destroy it with a single thought. He can empower someone at such levels that acquires inmediate godhood(as he did with Lightning) he can super easily shatter multiple planets with just a wave of energy and he is EASILY more than a galaxy buster, in fact he can blow up multiple galaxies if he wants to.

    Hypernova is one of his moves and a Hypernova can extend to a whole galaxy or more, is a massive destruction energy. He cannot truly die as well. He is definetely top 3.

    It is difficult to put in order which villian is strongest but as the matter stands and I've shown you. Exdeath thanks to the void he reigns supreme, there is nothing that can beats the void as long as the void defies logic and all the laws in which all of the other FF gods are bound to.


    As a final note: the chaos from FF13 is not the same as "THE VOID"the chaos in that game is just a dark place where the souls of the fallen roam for eterinity. It is like the final fantasy version of the "underworld" or it is like the world of darkness from FF3.

    Bhunivelze fell into the chaos and did not die at all, if Bhunivelze would have fall into the void he would have been erased just like exdeath did.

  14. #14
    Bright Shield's Avatar
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    I gotta go with Cloud of Darkness.

    It can instantly 1 shot any being that isn't 100% neutral. The heroes of light had to absorb the heroes of darkness(thus making them neutral) in order to defeat it. I say defeat since CoD can't be permanently killed.

    Now factoring in that no other FF hero or villain has a dark or light doppelgänger to absorb; CoD should get an instant win on any of them.

  15. #15
    Yes, I'm a FF III fan. Elpizo's Avatar
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    I would say that technically, if you count Bravely Default as part of the FF series (albeit a spinoff), then Ouroboros would be more powerful than Exdeath or even Cloud of Darkness. Exdeath and Cloud of Darkness could erase parts of the universe to nothing, and more if given the time. Ouroboros did it. Ouroboros erased whole multiverses, and what's even more frightening, he did it casually and with ease, just to taunt the heroes. I'd say that puts him on a whole different level on the threat scale.

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