The Black Materia

[Sephiroth]

I guess my issue here, is how does a planet loving race create a "planet killer" spell?

It was not created by the Cetra. It was a gift from Gaia itself. No Cetra would have been able to summon Meteor, otherwise Sephiroth wouldn't have had any need of the Materia itself and just absorbed it out of the lifestream like he did with the knowledge about the Materia itself.

Of course it was all for a story. Not everything in Final Fantasy VII is based on 100% perfect thoughts.

Except the mural at the Temple of the Ancients shows it was summoned once.



So the Cetra could summon it, the only stipulation is that the Black Materia requires great amounts of energy from the planet to summon, like the Lifestream. Which was how Sephy summoned it. I also feel that Meteor being a "gift from Gaia" makes even less sense than the Cetra creating it. Why would the planet create something that would only harm it?

No, it does not. It is just an explanation of what happens when you use the materia and does not tell that it has happened before. I know the picture, but thanks anyway. They did not know how to summon it. Once the knowledge is inside the lifestream and you are able to read it without your mind breaking you can summon the natural power without materia. And Sephiroth has absorbed a great amount of the lifestream while he travelled through the lifestream. And Meteor does not take a great amount of the lifestream's energy to summon it, the forme of the magic itself is drained lifestream like the Ultimania says but Sephiroth's meteor was no Meteor formed by the planet, it was a Meteor which already existed. Sephiroth himself says that the materia is used to call a Meteor from space. There is no reason to waste the planet's energy which he wants to absorb. Her only needed his extremly strong mind, the strongest mind of all like we all know and like it was mentioned in an interview and like it is mentioned in the Ultimania Omega, and the knowledge within the materia.

The Cetra did not create it because the Cetra didn't create any materia. The planet itself always creates materia. And technically every offensive spell can harm the planet so it is no question why it would do that, not to forget that the question is irrelevant anyways since there is no reason for it but to have a counterpart of Holy for the Story. The Cetra of course sealed the materia in forme of the Temple. But nothing else.

EDIT@Wolf Kanno: I already know your ability not to accept the facts, so please stop replying. You can think what you want. I don't try to convince you anymore. What you think will not change the facts. And no, not everything in Final Fantasy VII is well-thought. I do know that. And the Ultimania Omega does contain the truth as it is in Final Fantasy VII except just one mistake.

[Wolf Kanno]

No, it does not. It is just an explanation of what happens when you use the materia and does not tell that it has happened before. I know the picture, but thanks anyway. They did not know how to summon it.

Then why the mural? I still feel the mural itself is pretty damn good evidence to suggest they did use it once, hence why they sealed it and built a trap to kill anyone trying to pursue it. That right there tells me they know all too well how it works. It even shows people summoning ,Meteor while holding the black materia and shows that a giant smurfing meteor comes down on top of your ass and burns you and your children. I mean, most warning labels exist because someone was stupid enough to do it.

Besides the flaw in your reasoning is that if the Ancients didn't know how to use it, then why seal it away? Because if they were the only ones who could commune with the planet and gain the benefits of magic from it, then who else did they have to worry about it falling into the wrong hands with? Hell, if Sephy didn't have the means to absorb the lifestream and learned about it, no one would have ever known it existed.

Once the knowledge is inside the lifestream and you are able to read it without your mind breaking you can summon the natural power without materia.

Not needing the materia which contains the knowledge of the spell is not the same thing as not using the planet's power to use magic, Sephiroth states in the quote below that Magic is basically using the knowledge of the Ancients as a go between the caster and the Planet to use the planet's power for magic. So if Sephiroth had to cast Meteor, he still needs to drain the Planet's power to summon it because that's what magic is powered by.

And Meteor does not take a great amount of the lifestream's energy to summon it, the form of the magic itself is drained lifestream like the Ultimania says but Sephiroth's meteor was no Meteor formed by the planet, it was a Meteor which already existed
Sephiroth himself says that the materia is used to call a Meteor from space. There is no reason to waste the planet's energy which he wants to absorb.

Except Aerith states that you need large quantities of spiritual energy(Lifestream) to use it. She says so right after the party acquires the Black Materia:

Cloud: Can you guys use this?
Aerith: Nope, we can't use it right now. You need great spiritual power to use it.
Cloud: You means lots of Spiritual energy?
Aerith: That's right. One person's power alone won't do it.Somewhere special, where there's plenty of the Planet's Energy...


But the 10th Anniversary Ultimania in Sephiroth's profile states he did use the Lifestream energy at the Northern Crater to summon Meteor as well as restore his body, not to mention the AC Ultimania states that using materia uses the planet's energy, so why would the Black Materia be any different?

He only needed his extremely strong mind, the strongest mind of all like we all know and like it was mentioned in an interview and like it is mentioned in the Ultimania Omega, and the knowledge within the materia.

Are you still beating that dead horse?

The Cetra did not create it because the Cetra didn't create any materia. The planet itself always creates materia. And technically every offensive spell can harm the planet so it is no question why it would do that, not to forget that the question is irrelevant anyways since there is no reason for it but to have a counterpart of Holy for the Story. The Cetra of course sealed the materia in form of the Temple. But nothing else.

You're misunderstanding when I ask the question of "who created the Black Materia?", I guess the more accurate question would be, "who formulated the spell Meteor, which knowledge eventually became Black Materia?" It's just that everyone else understood my short hand version for meaning the second phrasing, all except you. Sephiroth states specifically that Materia is concentrated Mako which itself stores the knowledge of the Ancients which can be used by people to create magic.

Cloud: By the way... why is it that when you use materia you can also use magic too?
Sephiroth: You were in SOLDIER and didn't even know that?
...the knowledge and wisdom of the Ancients is held in the materia.
Anyone with the knowledge can freely use the powers of the Land and the Planet.
That Knowledge interacts between the ourselves and the planet calling up magic...or so they say

So the question stands, what Cetra came to the knowledge of summoning Meteor? Other magic can harm the planet, but its both small scale and often can also be used for beneficial purposes. Meteor doesn't seem to fit any of the ideals of the Cetra or the Planet, it can't be used to help cultivate the Planet, nor can it defend it. It simply destroys the Planet.Why would the planet give that kind of knowledge and why would the Cetra ever formulate it? Its a weird anomaly in the plot, which is a shame cause almost everything else is actually well thought out.

[>_<]

Such a great post to read. Something to dwell upon and mull over.


While I'm busy musing about how I think the teapot people (Brain Pod's) might possibly tip their "spouts" when they urinate in the Shinra toilets, you guys are waxing on about the bigger issues. Kinda puts things into perspective, y'kown!


What's next? Drawing comparisons detween Shinra and the Bilderberg Group?


I jest. Very nice postings and an interesting topic.

[Jiro]

What's next? Drawing comparisons detween Shinra and the Bilderberg Group?

Well actually...

[Bolivar]

Damn guys maybe this is getting a little heated. I don't know if we can definitely say what the mural is unless you know of something in an ultimania and even then it might not be true to the original game.

I'm starting to think they accidentally used the spell once and that's what brought Jenova. After they finally sealed Jenova, they found where the knowledge of how to summon meteor was concentrated, and sealed that away as well...

Its a weird anomaly in the plot, which is a shame cause almost everything else is actually well thought out.

I am bookmarking this!!!

[Wolf Kanno]

I don't hate VII man, I just think its overrated by its fans.

[Eaglegun]

Perhaps meteors original purpose was beneficial to the planet. If could be used to intercept and counteract asteroids or whatever that might hit the planet. It may have been necessary to use it for such a purpose originally, but then later it became a liability, since humans and Jenovas and whatnot aren't as peace loving as the Cetra and so it had to be sealed away. It may take an Ancient to harness the lifestream and actually summon the meteor (don't quote me on that) but humans have shown that they can work around that loophole when they created Sephiroth.

[Raistlin]

It's always been one of the few elements of VII's plot that kind of nags me. I have a theory myself but I'm curious to know what others think first.

"Few"? Really?

There are some definite holes in FFVII's plot that are poorly explained or outright glossed over. This would seem to be a relatively minor incident of the latter. Though I suppose you could justify Meteor's existence as a necessary aspect of some sort of "balance." Because Holy was created, Meteor was a byproduct. So while I think it's possible to explain, like other parts of FFVII's plot, it involves making things up or further expanding on areas not very well developed in the game.

[chionos]

The Planet, and/or its people, know that meteors sometimes do fall from the sky with catastrophic consequences. The Black Materia may simply be the consolidation of that knowledge. By themselves, meteorite impacts aren't inherently good or evil; they're simply another force of nature. The Cetra were all about being in touch with natural forces and elements, which would include both those that help humans, and those that harm.

This is probably the most sensible of answers, which means it's probably true. It would also fit that the meteor is an allusion to Jenova itself which was a disaster that fell from the sky creating the northern crater--isn't this exactly what a meteor does, yeah?

I've also thought that (for whatever reason it was created) the Black Materia was used at some point which, instead of creating a meteor out of nothing, grabbed a nearby meteor to hurl to earth which just happened to contain Jenova, which would explain the description of how she came to the planet. Just a stray thought though.

The first time I played the game I just assumed the Black Materia and Meteor were basically a reset button for the planet. Perhaps the Cetra had witnessed or knew of a similar event to dinosaurs being wiped out by a meteor, and decided to create something that could exterminate humans (Cetra) from the planet and allow the planet to start over if it ever became necessary. They were wise enough to foresee a time when the Cetra or their ancestors would become a blight on the planet and need to be stopped. Meteor might cause damage to the planet, but the planet might recover, humans would not.

So Sephiroth, then, would have basically been using Meteor correctly, but then the planet itself made the decision that not all humans were bad and balance could be restored without destroying every last one of them. It adds to one of the underlying ideas or themes of FFVII which is that Knowledge without wisdom is worthless (and potentially dangerous). Sephiroth had all the knowledge of the world in his head, but was never able to achieve the wisdom necessary to use that knowledge correctly.

That's not what I think now, though, since I don't think it was Sephiroth really who summoned Meteor. Multiple playthroughs have led me to believe that the Sephiroth we see in flashbacks is not the Sephiroth we experience in the present portions of the game but Jenova masquerading as Sephiroth. Yes, that's right, the baddest bestest boss in FF history is just a big fake.

I think I've said enough for this post, but I'll be back later to give my breakdown of I think is really happening with Jenova and Meteor. It's all about Jesus, I'm tellin' ya.

[Sephiroth]

That's not what I think now, though, since I don't think it was Sephiroth really who summoned Meteor. Multiple playthroughs have led me to believe that the Sephiroth we see in flashbacks is not the Sephiroth we experience in the present portions of the game but Jenova masquerading as Sephiroth. Yes, that's right, the baddest bestest boss in FF history is just a big fake.

I think I've said enough for this post, but I'll be back later to give my breakdown of I think is really happening with Jenova and Meteor. It's all about Jesus, I'm tellin' ya.

It has nothing to do with Sephiroth being a "fake". The soul is what matters. And the soul which controls the headless body of JENOVA is Sephiroth. So it is Sephiroth himself. His body inside the crater is also not his 100% body, because his original body was almost completely destroyed while travelling through the lifestream for such a long time. He had to regenerate and that's also the reason why his lower part was still missing. Sephiroth wants JENOVA to reunite without an explained reason. Nevertheless he thinks it is the only being similiar to him and worth being similiar to him, his "mother" and he wants it to reunite. He was the one who activated JENOVA's head. He was the one who activated the reunion. He wanted his clones to restore JENOVA ("Clone" in Final Fantasy VII is not the same as a normal clone, the "Clone" in Final Fantasy VII is like the "Replica" in Crisis Core).

Sephiroth is the one who uses JENOVA to wander around. It is exactly the same ability he uses in Advent Children. Sephiroth's reunion is way better than JENOVA's, because JENOVA needs almost all cells to reunite, but Sephiroth only needs his will and the shapeshifting ability he has learned from JENOVA to build himself a new body. Of course Sephiroth wants exactly the same JENOVA wants. he wants to get more and more powerful by absorbing the knowledge of life. But JENOVA acts mainly instinctive, it really does it because it is an instinct, while Sephiroth does it because he wants to do it. Nevertheless he is the "new JENOVA".

[chionos]

I would consider your argument if I saw any evidence in the games that lent it credence. I don't have a concrete surety of exactly what's going on with the subtler aspects of the game, so I'm willing to change my mind if I see evidence that suggests other than what I currently think.

Some problems:

There's no reason for Sephiroth to change his speech pattern after his experience in the lifestream, especially not to that of Jenova, but he does--perhaps because it is not him controlling his body.

Notice all of the times in the game that you're dealing with Sephiroth, he gives a big speech or whatever, then disappears and suddenly you're fighting Jenova.

The Sephirova of the present does not refer to Jenova as "mother" any more.

There is every indication, from glimpses of the past to the player characters' reactions, that the Sephiroth of the past (the real Sephiroth) has a different perspective (and philosophy) than the Sephiroth of the present (actually Jenova). For instance Sephiroth thinks that Jenova is his mother and that she is a Cetra and that the Cetra were sacrificed for humanity's sake. Sephiroth does not want godhood, he wants revenge. Jenova, on the other hand, does not connect itself with the people of this planet at all and therefore feels that it should be the god of the planet (hence Jehovah + nova = Jenova).

I've got more, but I'd like to hear contrary evidence first so I know which direction to go with this.

[Sephiroth]

There is no evidence for JENOVA being the controller all over the time. Sephiroth simply calls "JENOVA" by its name because it is named like that in the story. He doesn't always call it "mother" and nothing else. And you want your evidence? I post that evidence all the time. Hojo did researches concerning the reunion. He was the one who found out that Sephiroth is the controller. He says "But as the genius I am I have noticed immediately. It was all Sephiroth. Sephiroth's will and JENOVA's reunion ... brilliant. " And to guarantee you there is not translating error: I have the german, the english and the japanese version.

What you think is the same as a popular theory, the Brittenham Theory which is know for ten years. But it has been proven wrong automatically by Final Fantasy VII itself and by the Ultimania Omega of Final Fantasy VII.

While Sephiroth is in Nibelheim he says to Cloud, JENOVA is in the mountain range. And YES, there is a reason for Sephiroth to change his speech.

1. His speech itself does not change that extreme at all, he always spoke intelligent before.
2. Sephiroth is shown to use all ability of JENOVA to show that he has fully learned to use of of her abilities.
3. Sephiroth is extremely arrogant, that's his only weakness. He knows how powerful he is and he has a grudge against Cloud since Cloud beat him. After that he always tried to show his power. And even though the story itself already proves it:

The Ultimania Omega of Final Fantasy VII states Sephiroth has an inhuman and majestic speech to show that he is way more than just a human being, way more powerful and way more intelligent.

Like I have already mentioned. The creature you meet IS JENOVA. But it is not JENOVA which controls the body. Sephiroth commands it. In the Forgotten Capital JENOVA says its only line in the story to show that it is not the true body of Sephiroth. But even that was corrected in Advent Children to make it clear so Toshiyuki Morikawa, Sephiroth's voice actor said it. And like I have also mentioned - in Advent Children he also uses JENOVA's cells to build himself a body.

"There is every indication, from glimpses of the past to the player characters' reactions, that the Sephiroth of the past (the real Sephiroth) has a different perspective (and philosophy) than the Sephiroth of the present (actually Jenova). For instance Sephiroth thinks that Jenova is his mother and that she is a Cetra and that the Cetra were sacrificed for humanity's sake. Sephiroth does not want godhood, he wants revenge. Jenova, on the other hand, does not connect itself with the people of this planet at all and therefore feels that it should be the god of the planet (hence Jehovah + nova = Jenova)."

That's just wrong. Sephiroth already became god-like in the five years he travelled through the lifestream. Sephiroth absorbed a great amount of knowledge (and also the knowledge that JENOVA is not a Cetra). He just wanted to get even more powerful and absorb the planet. Sephiroth is the only being whose will is strong enough to absorb the complete knowledge of life without breaking (except JENOVA - "she" always did" with all the other planets). Sephiroth is explained to be a super-powerful being which became even more powerful, more inhuman and more like a monster, more like JENOVA after he decided to go that path. And Sephiroth only wanted to kill all humans five years before the story because he read Hojo's false documents. The Cetra did not sacrifice for humanity's sake. The Cetra became human. Cetra are human beings but with special powers. When the were almost completely eradicated by JENOVA they stopped wandering around, lost their contact to the planet and their powers (almost completely, not completely which is also the reason why Iphalna and Aerith have their powers) and so they became the human race. The Ultimania Omega even explains AVALANCHE to become like Cetra once they learned to listen to the planet at Cosmo Canyon. Oh and by the way you are wrong with the "JENOVA feels ... JENOVA is not connected ... JENOVA thinks it is the god of the planet" thing because:

1. JENOVA does not feel anything. That's stated in the Ultimania Omega. JENOVA is completely emotionless. And even Sephiroth became emotionless (since he became more like JENOVA) after he has become so mighty. The only joy he feels is when he can show his power to Cloud (which is because of his grudge - yes, you may think it is childish, but Sephiroth was an extremely proud person).
2. JENOVA has no interest in becoming the god of the planet. JENOVA only follows the desire to absorb and reunite. JENOVA is almost completely an animal (I know, "animal" is a bad word here - "instinctive" is what I want to say with it) uses her intelligence to fool other beings and to absorb them. But she does not do that because she thinks like a human being.

Sephiroth travels through the lifestream and absorbs a great amount of knowledge, including a great amount of the Cetra's knowledge. He surpasses JENOVA and learns about the Black Materia. Then he plans to absorb even more energy and plans to do that with the Black Materia. He regenerates in the Northern Crater and activates the reunion with JENOVA's head to call and command all the other Sephiroth clones. Meanwhile he builds himself a body with the headless body he has also called and commands this body to do what he does. When he transforms it back to JENOVA Birth, Life and Death of course he does not fight you. It is JENOVA which fights you (at least it is not proven that he still controls JENOVA while you are fighting her). He gets the Black Materia and kills Aerith who is dangerous for him since she learns how to call Holy (she learns it in the City of the Ancients, she does not know it before, but Sephiroth knows she is potentially dangerous for him). Then he continues with his plan and reunites JENOVA (almost - at least there are missing parts like those which became Sephiroth himself, which are inside Cloud, which were inside Zack, which are inside Hojo, which are inside Lucrecia, et cetera). He calls Meteor and begins with his metamorphosis. Cloud and the others face him before he is able to absorb the planet, and interrupt his metamorphosis after they have destroyed JENOVA, but Sephiroth already has absorbed a great amount of life energy (also while he travelled through the lifestream in the past 5 years) and he begins to mutate. He becomes Sephiroth Rebirth. A Sephiroth cocoon. On top of the Sephiroth cocoon there is another Sephiroth. The reborn Sephiroth. Safer Sephiroth who is about to break out of his cocoon. After the cocoon is destroyed, Safer Sephiroth, the reborn version - still not as powerful as he would have become once he would have absorbed the whole lifestream, but powerful enough - and destroy him. Sephiroth's mind is in the lifestream. But Sephiroth is too powerful for the lifestream - that's also stated in the Ultimania Omega and also the reason why he can remain in the lifestream and do all that - so he can decide if he wants to remain as Sephiroth or if he wants to be reborn as a new being with a new personality (which is normal for this Planet's Life, but then Sephiroth would not be Sephiroth and he wants to be Sephiroth). He uses his contact to Cloud and sends his mind into the lifestream were he fights him. But Cloud is able to break Sephiroth's control (that makes no sense since Sephiroth is explaned as the being with the most powerful will while Cloud is explained as a being with a very weak will, but Sephiroth should have been finally defeated in 1997 so this was how it ended). Cloud finds his way back to Tifa. But Sephiroth still remains inside the lifestream. Weakened, so the lifestream tries to make him part of it. But Sephiroth is still able to control himself. He links his mind and memories with Cloud's and so he is able to "find himself" and to exist even if the lifestream would take all of what Sephiroth is. With this method he is able to regenerate the core of his existence. But he doesn't even need that. He remains inside the lifestream and "pollutes" it by strengthening the hatred inside the lifestream. Aerith notices Sephiroth does that but she is afraid of coming closer. he notices Aerith and just laughs at her. With her purity she is able to "clean" some souls full of hatred but Sephiroth is too powerful. She cannot do that with all. So she asks some Cetra remaining in the lifestream to help her. Nevertheless Sephiroth is more powerful than those - even though they are able to help a great amount of souls to return to the planet - and wants to show Cloud that it was all his plan. He wants to appear ghost-like on Gaia, but he cannot remember what he looked like once befoe so he wants to use JENOVA's cells again and while he creates Kadaj, Loz and Yazoo combining his will with Geostigma he wanders around as the three of them (with a new personality - they don't know they are Sephiroth, they know he returns by fulfiling the reunion, but they don't know, why) and restores his memory about his original body while reading the minds of those who remember him. Then Kadaj uses JENOVA cells and Sephiroth rebuilds his body.

He fights Cloud and tells him he intends to follow JENOVA's meaning of life: Travelling through the universe and absorbing life. This way he would become even more powerful. He wants to determine his fate like that.

Then Cloud destroys his body and Sephiroth says "Watashi wa ... omoide ni wa nara nai sa." which means "I will never become just a memory." which means nothing but "Well, now you've seen me again. But that was not the last time. Adios, amigo."

"Which means, in the end, that I wish I hadn't dug any deeper, because now I realize how horrible and empty <acronym title="Final Fantasy VII">FFVII</acronym>'s plot and characterizations are, and how miserably the direction was for this game (though to give them credit, it was a progressive and risky undertaking)."

You just don't understand it. And that is all. Final Fantasy VII's story and characters are very good explained. You just need to read the lines. But obviously many people don't do. Otherwise they wouldn't even think of such wrong interpretations about Sephiroth and JENOVA like that guy did who was thought to be some Final Fantasy Guru as if Final Fantasy would be something like science.

[chionos]

Well I went and read the Ultimania Omega guide which states quite explicitly that Sephiroth controls Jenova.

Seemingly, the will of Jenova as a human is the result of it consuming Sephiroth's spirit; in actuality, Sephiroth is controlling Jenova.

I'm not sure why you didn't save a lot of time by simply quoting that. Although I don't necessarily consider the guide canon, I don't think anything so blatant would be accepted without some semblance of truth.

It's also telling that the original idea for Jenova was that it was a "part of the brain" that I guess had developed as a condensed form of a mysterious Jenova book that the ancients possessed. In other words Jenova's a plot device and nothing more.

Which means, in the end, that I wish I hadn't dug any deeper, because now I realize how horrible and empty FFVII's plot and characterizations are, and how miserably the direction was for this game (though to give them credit, it was a progressive and risky undertaking).

[GhandiOwnsYou]

Has anyone considered that Materia seems to be a natural phenomenon occuring due to the lifestream? By this I mean that the lifestream is independently taking any and all knowledge that resides in the lifestream and crystalizing it into materia. It doesn't seem to only be choosing things based on their usefulness or or some cetran intent. It stands to reason that merely having a cetra, or group of cetra, inadvertantly discover that it was possible to do such magic, theoretically, would insert that knowledge into the lifestream upon death. This would allow it to be crystallized regardless.

I'll simplify using a real world example. Suspend disbelief and assume people on earth were wholesome crunchy granola peace lovers. Assume that we used fire to heat our homes, electricity to power our world, water to control erosion, irrigation, and landscaping. When we died, knowledge of these elements were then turned by the earth into materia. The resulting materia could be used as combat magic, totally independent of their original uses. Materia merely provides the understanding of how these elements could be influenced. Now lets say in the 40's nuclear power is discovered, and when attempting to harness it's use for mankinds benefit, someone had a brief realization of the possibility of an atomic bomb. Now, because of that flash of realization, when this person dies, that knowlege is also crystalized along with his other nuclear knowledge. If someone were to find that materia, they would also theoretically be given the framework for how nuclear energy could be harnessed for destruction as well. A noble goal that resulted in a terrible realization, was reproduced via materia into something akin to an a-bomb materia.

I always assumed this was the case in FFVII. The cetrans may have been studying astronomy, or developed a spell to divert errant asteroids from the planet. When they died, this was distilled down to "materia for controlling the trajectory of massive objects in space." That generation probably realized its threat outweighed its possible good, and stopped that line of research to prevent further knowledge of it. Future generations would have realized the terrible power of the materia when it appeared, and chose to seal it away for the same reasons. Without using it or continuing to develop that magic, it would have kept the saturation of that knowlege in the lifestream minimal, supposedly enough that it only crystalized the one time.

Just my thoughts on a possible explanation.