Originally Posted by Loony BoB
There's also FFIV that got The After Years when the team developing the DS remake of IV decided they wanted to do a sequel. FFV got that anime OVA back in the 90s that... is better left unspoken. Even FFXII got a quick cash in sequel with Revnant Wings which was originally an independent IP being created by Motomu Toriyama before Squenix Executives had it turned into an FFXII spin-off during production.
I wasn't aware of FFX being criticised to any major level. It sold massively well, probably better than the previous two games, and has a very large following to this day. You can often tell how popular an FF is based on how many people name themselves after the characters, and I assure you, there were a lot of Tidus, Auron, Yuna, Rikku etc. characters floating about the moment FFX hit the retail stores. But yeah, FFX was widely loved (not including myself or yourself, but two people with taste changes little when you look at the average user ratings out on the internet). FFX-2 was released because FFX sold so incredibly well. VII? Also sold really well. Not a shocker that the two best-selling FF games of the 3D generation (I think?) are the ones with sequels - well, before FFXIII-2 comes along.
As for FFX's criticism, it was there, perhaps not in the scores (kind of like FFXIII), but if you read the reviews you'll notice people mention the games linearity and how CTB is slow compared to old school ATB, but most people overlooked it as major faults. If you read any review from 2002-2003 concerning FFX-2, Kitase and Toriyama will mention that X-2's gameplay designs are direct results from fan criticism.
You say that Final Fantasy XIII didn't need a sequel, and while it didn't need one (no game ever does, to be honest, need a sequel) a large number of people at the time of finishing FFXIII at EoFF were discussing how much potential there was for a sequel. The masses caught on to the idea immediately and it was always looking like heading in that direction. The fans weren't clamouring for a sequel but a large number of those that finished and enjoyed the game were certainly interested before any kind of mention was made from SE, and that is enough for them to take note.
Except I would argue its no different from any other FF game in that regard, its just that in the past, getting a direct sequel to an FF game was mostly implausible to fans. Still, I remember people wanting sequels to VII and VIII, and even as far back as FFIV and VI for the SNES. Even FFX started getting murmurs of a sequel due to the games ambiguous final cutscene where you see Tidus swimming near Besaid. It was enough for the design team to create the short "Eternal Calm" video for the International Version which did actually swirl the Japanese fanbase into a wild fervor about a sequel being made for FFX, and eventually led to FFX-2 being green-lighted.
Going from ATB back to a modified turn base could do that, but it wasn't a big deal though I'm sure there were a vocal group of traditionalist that screamed bloody murder.
People complained about FFX's battle system? That's weird - most people say it's one of the best, including myself. I agree that it was linear and that was my primary complaint outside of the characters, but the sales and ratings still said enough. Fans enjoyed FFX in general and it was a success on all levels. There was little room for a sequel, let alone need. Very different to FFXIII, where we were discussing the huge opening for a sequel from the moment they finished.
I disagree about XIII having potential for a sequel or it being unique in that regard, I mean FFX itself left us with question of what was going to happen to Spira in the post-Sin/post-Yu Yevon world, how is that different from XIII and the fate of Cocoon? Hell most of the story elements brought up so far in the XIII-2 trailers deal with stuff that wasn't even a factor in the original like time travel, Etro, and Lightning apparently disappearing 15 seconds later in the original games mostly happy ending. What does any of this have to do with a fal'Cie conspiracy and a group of people who got screwed by fate and then magically succeeded from a real Deus ex Machina? What was really left to address that was different from FFX, VII, IV, XII or V? This sequel is no more needed than FFIV's sequel or FFVII's sequel.
To be fair, I'm not saying it's the best way to apologize and I'm not saying it's an apology, either. I'm saying that it's them doing their best to improve upon the XIII 'franchise', to regain the integrity of that XIII number. Some people say "They should have just gone straight to XV" but this would be a mistake. If they cock up XIII-2, they're relatively safe from harm, to be honest. It's just a spinoff game. If they cock up XV, that's three in a row and that's what is often referred to in this world as A Very Bad Thing.The other issue here is that I don't see XIII-2 as SE being a good way for SE to apologize for a bad game that was hindered by terrible management.
I simply feel they can better use their resources to improve the XIII franchise (that no one asked for) by making sure the rest of the FNC is better and hell, maybe even cut down on Versus XIII's production time so we could see it before the end of this console cycle. There is no reason why these resources had to be wasted on a product with limited interest. The original didn't go over well in terms of fulfilling fan expectations, so that pretty much means this game is going to have to shoulder some heavy baggage that is going to limit the return on this investment. SE would have been better off just pooling the resources to help Versus XIII possibly see a Japanese release in 2012, you know, the part of the FNC fans have actually been interested in since that first trailer rolled out back in 2006... They could make sure games that fans already know are in the works are going to be the best games ever and restore confidence in the brand, instead their going in for a round two because damn it all, Toriyama wants you to love his creation, and he won't take "no" for an answer.
Oh come now BoB... you know this is for the money, come on, search your feelings, you know it to be true... :vader:
On some level, yes, you're right. And they should listen to fans. They should try to improve their game. They should do everything they can to continue to make a profit. But I think they're going about it the right way, personally. These are things they should do and are doing. It's about time, really. And I'm happy for that. Could they do this by taking what they have learned and going straight to XV? No, I think that would be a bad idea. But I still believe they are doing this because they care. Maybe not about you and me, but about the integrity of Final Fantasy. Many games flop, it doesn't mean it's the end of the world for everyone out there. They could drop Final Fantasy altogether and still find a new way to sell a lot of games. But instead, they are doing all they can to appease the fans and get Final Fantasy XIII a sequel that gives the series a bit more integrity. They're doing it right. For the money? Pah.
Seriously, though, while I agree that going to FFXV is not a wise move, I don't think making a sequel to a game that is very decisive to the fanbase is a great way of doing this either. As I said, we could be putting the XIII staff to work on finishing Versus XIII instead, not making sequels to kill time between entries people are actually interested in get released. This game is a quick profit, they have the world and engine and everything, they could poop out sequels every year if they wanted to...
While I appreciate the fact they are listening to fans to make this game better than its predecessor, I find it to be a "too little, too late" and trying to sell me the game they should have made in the first place is their lost. I mean this entire thread was started because Kitase actually had to explain why this game is being made, which tells me that this is not a game fans really wanted in the first place, and that XIII has more baggage than the XIII lovers are willing to admit. While I share SE's optimistic expectations for XIII-2, I can also see the game not doing so well due to the relations with XIII and the fanbase getting tired of direct sequels.
Let me correct myself by saying I meant to say that FFXIV didn't do it alone, but while we're on the subject, I actually don't feel that XIV's failure has more impact as the other things I mentioned, simply because a lot of the fanbase doesn't care about the MMO entries. For many fans, XI and XIV don't exist, and I would go so far as to say that XIV let many fans down the moment it was revealed to be an MMO. Having a large part of the fanbase never have to experience the nightmare of XIV has probably not weaken their feelings about SE as much as the poor souls who did hate XII-XIV.XIV didn't tarnish the franchise
to say this immediately beforehand is incorrect. Yes, it did. It's stupid to say otherwise. I'm not saying it was all FFXIV, but it certainly has played a bloody big part of it and if you can't see that you're very close-minded. And this is coming from someone who enjoys playing FFXIV more than most. I still don't play it often anymore and won't subscribe from the get-go.
I would agree being a disaster after the mediocre XIII was definetly bad for SE's image but I feel XIV was more of a PR disaster with critics and media types than it was to the whole of the fanbase, whom it was simply a financial disaster. Besides, since I don't really consider SE an MMO company, I don't really have much expectations for their MMOS, its not like XI doesn't have its fair share of problems with its interface, nearly impossible super bosses, constant "balance through nerfing every exploitation players find", and the general non-newb friendly mechanics has exactly made XI exceptional even in the MMO community. Half it's design problems are forgiven by fans due to the game being one of the few surviving pre-WoW MMOs and because SE has doen a pretty good job with user feedback to make it more palpable. While its strong community and longevity shows that XI is not by any means terrible and actually quite good, I feel its design issues also showcase that SE is not exactly a premier MMO developer, so screwing one up is not as bad as screwing up a console RPG would be.
Despite all this, XIV is salvageable. It may have lost its chance to surpass its predecessor or change the world of MMOs, but the PC style design expectations means fans will just wait for more patches to make it better, and MMOs are pretty consistent money makers once they get going. It may now take SE another five to ten years to make XIV turn a profit but it has more of a chance than other games in the franchise.
Except FFX actually has a huge fanbase, its often surpassing FFVII in Japan as the best FF in the series, and in the US and PAL, it's been a pretty consistent number 2. FFXII itself is actually one of the most critically acclaimed entries in the franchise, and while it was also not exactly hailed the same by the fanbase, its dissenters are nowhere near the scale XIII's have been.Some people may have enjoyed FFXIII but from what I've read and seen, their is a large consensus with the fanbase that XIII was underwhelming when compared to the franchises' legacy.
I agree with that. Although I think the same of FFX and FFXII, so I don't see how FFXIII are suddenly so much worse, but that's personal opinion.
While I agree that making another game from an entry to address design issues is not the way to go, that's what I feel XIII-2 is doing because there is nothing really left to say about the original story that is not really important to the overall narrative. Chances are pretty high that any legitimate questions left unanswered from XIII will promptly be ignored or was already explained in the original by the Datalog or Analects, if the rest of SE's sequel track record is anything to go by. The biggest draw of XIII-2 is that "hey, we fixed it by inputting everything you told us to" not the expansion of a narrative that doesn't look like its really continuing where the previous cast left off, but rather starting over with a brand new cast and mostly new story and just intertwining the previous cast in supporting character hijinks.
For me, design problems is the last reason to make another game - another game should only be made if there is room for it, and in VIII's case there was none. II? I mean... what was there to begin with? xDHad XIII simply had some wanky design problems (like FFII and VIII) I can see going back to address them, in another game
Get ready, cause I am about to blow your freaking mind... I actually like most of the series, FFX and XIII are the only entries I have issues with. I don't pretend the franchise is without its faults but I actually felt that even entries like FFII and VIII have enough positives to outweigh the negatives, and despite what modern gamers fans think, FFII was actually a success in Japan and actually has a strong fanbase there ( Uboarrrr anyone?) so SE certainly doesn't need to apologize for FFII. It's not really FFII's fault that it's design is deeply imbedded in a time frame that called for different standards on what was considered fun, and that those standards have changed over the past two decades since it's release. No one really blames Pac-Man for being designed as a simple arcade title with only a hi-score to show off your skill and cry that its aged poorly because you are doing the same repetitive thing over and over again and the title lacks variety even when its ported and remade.I don't know if an apology is in order, personally. I don't think one was in order for XIII. It wasn't everyone's cup of tea, that we all know, but should they really have to apologise for making the game they wanted to make and that they were happy with? I mean, how many games have not done well over the years. Does every other developer have to come out and make a formal apology every time people don't like it? That's stupid. Not every game will suit every fan. I'm certain that making the game you see as perfect will be a game that someone else does not. Likewise for me. It's normal. They can admit that they didn't think people would view things in certain ways, but why apologise? It's not like XIV where they asked people to pay for a game that wasn't ready in any way whatsoever. XIII was a finished game, but people didn't like it as much as they liked their favourite FF from whenever. Is that so bad? Did they apologise for re-releasing FFII? "Still a tit game, here you go!" What about FFX HD? It's the same as before, but with HD graphics. They wouldn't do this if it was a bad game, by the way. No, of course they didn't apologise and I don't think they should have to. Just because you didn't like it, doesn't mean they have to apologise. You know this, I'm sure you do.
Despite that, I don't feel Squenix needs to apologize for XIII but I feel the major overhaul gameplay and numerous succession to fan demands can be taken as an indirect apology for the original games poor design. I also don't really feel XIII's design was something the team consciously made, Kitase's interviews concerning the troubled development and the fact the games actual design and the teams vision for the game wasn't finalized until a year before it's release thanks to having to make the demo tells me that many of XIII's design decisions were more necessity than conscious experimentation. You have part of the staff talking about cut content and Kitase and Toriyama pretty much admitting that for most of the development of the game, the overall team broke up into smaller groups and was just generating content without direction for four to five years. The audacity of the development team to release a product that was pretty much thrown together at the last minute kind of confirmed a sneaking suspicion that SE really believes that brand name can sell a title alone and quality products are not as much of a factor. Even people who love FFXIII can't really justify several of the game's design problems and will usually agree with haters like myself that the game could be improved on many levels.
I honestly feel its because of XIII's lukewarm feeling from fans and the terrible receptions of FFXIV that SE has finally been caught making this suspicion true. That's why SE has changed their policy somewhat and are now listening to fans...
Easiest solution to a "damn if you do, damn if you don't" situation is to not find yourself in one to begin with. My point about listening to fans is simply to look at it as the possibility that SE is out of touch with the fanbase and that the last decade of departures and policy changes have weakened and tarnished the franchise. I mean ten years ago, Squaresoft was telling RPG fans what they wanted and had an uncanny knack for usually being right. Now, Squenix has fallen behind and is struggling to generate balanced and fun titles, their newest releases and up-coming high profile titles major claims to fame being that they actually implemented things that fans have wanted back into the games for years. They've moved too much into the business side of things, unapologetically. I mean Wada has been talking for years about moving the company towards social gaming and cell phone titles while also telling the development team to make their games more "Western" because that's what's trending now in the game market.these guys have been working on this series for over a decade for some members, they really should know what they are doing, not asking fans what they should do.
Ironically, talking with the fans more about what they want is something that people have been calling for SE to do for years on years now, surely including yourself. Not talking to fans is just how FFXIV and FFXIII came about. You want them to stop asking fans what they want now that they've finally started? Do you know the saying "Damned if you do, damned if you don't"? >=P
While Square and FF have always been a business, it was a business controlled by artist. Part of the reason I feel Mistwalker has only done so-so in the games market is largely due to Sakeguchi being a terrible businessman and his insistence of giving the proverbial middle finger to Sony but no one really denies the companies ability to make wonderful games, they are just limited by the bullheaded business decisions of the companies founder. Yet at Squenix, I don't feel the creativity is there anymore, and what's left is being stamped out by the business side. Granted, today's console designs mean that triple A titles have to succeed and companies are so concerned about taking a hit, they have to bring in test groups and executive meddling to "fix" products. I feel this is Japan's problem, and why so many of the creative designers have been leaving their companies and trying to create new ones, the major companies are now more concerned about the bottom line, and no one is willing to make concessions to release creative games that may lack the high budgets expected. I mean close to half of XIII's design team left the company and SE no longer has an in-house music department to develop music for their games, simply out-sourcing. Hell most of the writing of SE games are out-sourced as well to Nojima, Kato, and Matsuno. SE has seen the departure of a large majority of the people who were running things back in Square's "Golden Age" and I feel the Compilation and steady stream of remakes is simply SE trying to stay relevant. Even FFXHD, I'll agree is SE simply trying to make quick money due to the financial disaster of XIV.
I don't necessarily feel it's a bad business move to fully utilize feedback, but I do question if SE has seen the far sighted consequences of trying to appeal to a largley fractured fanbase that can't even agree what constitutes good writing and game design. I mean, just taking XII and XIII fans, how are you going to rectify that into a game design that will make both sides happy? This isn't like AC, Madden, FIFA, MGS, and CoD where we've been refining elements for a years. I mean the series makes drastic leaps and what's considered "great innovation" in one game is the "downfall of the franchise" to other fans. Its the biggest concern I have with SE following all feedback, especially since the fact people love FFXIII and think its a great game, tells me that my fellow fans can't be trusted to give meaningful feedback, and I am pretty sure the feeling is mutual on the other side of the pond concerning some of my likes.
Well now that my semester is over, I may be able to debate with you for extended periods of time. I understand where you are coming from and I can even agree that my view sometimes comes off a bit too "black and white" but I hope you can understand how I see this positive is covering up an underlying negative.I could debate with you forever, WK, I think you do it so well - no bitching, no flaming, no anger... it's actually almost fun. :<3: I do see your viewpoint and I can understand how you can reach it, but I hope you can see where I'm coming from, too.
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