Metal Gear Solid 2 Appreciation Thread

[Forsaken Lover]

Metal Gear Solid 2 Substance Intro (PS2 Widescreen) - YouTube

Ah...what can you say about MGS2?

It's hard to remember now but I'm pretty sure it was my first MGS game. I think I went and tracked down a copy of MGS1 after playing 2. I hold a fondness for the game that ha lasted for these past ten or so years.

Granted, I haven't even played it in the last five or six years. I really should get around to doing that.

Anyway, I consider it the most ambitious game in the series. That's not exactly a compliment since a lot of the things Kojima was trying to say fell very flat. Overall I think the game is pretty hit-and-miss when it comes to the story with some parts being my favorite in the series and others being...well, ugh

I do know that I do prefer Raiden as a main character to either one of the Snakes. Solidus was also one of my favorite MGS villains.

Of course, beyond the story, there was some very fun gameplay, very amusing codec calls, and wonderful music.

This could change upon a replay but right now it's my second favorite Metal Gear game.

Here's some MGS2 awesomeness:

Music-
Yell dead cell Metal Gear Solid 2 Sons Of Liberty - YouTube

Bosses
MGS2: European Extreme -- Solidus - YouTube

Comedy
Metal Gear Solid 2: Angry Rose - YouTube


So, how about you all? Come in and join the lovin'. Say what you liked about Sons of Liberty/Substance. How do you rank it in your fave MGS games?

[Bolivar]

One of my favorite games of all time. My least favorite in the Solid series, but I don't dislike it by any measure.

I remember I borrowed it about a year or two after it came out. He wanted to borrow a game and I didn't know which one to ask for from him and he recommended Metal Gear. I really wanted to play 2 because of all the hype it got when it released, but he insisted I play Metal Gear Solid first, which I did.

Anyway, I was completely surprised at the general disfavor this game has in the gaming community, as well as the hate that Raiden gets. I just didn't get it. I suppose I see why they thought he was annoying but it just never occurred to me to take it that far.

Overall I thought it was a great continuation of its predecessor. MGS really predates the Call of Duty: Modern Warfare series as building this realistic military world where they use real weapons and technology, and use the same terminology as people in the military at the time. It created this very realistic world and when you go back or into a new MGS game, it makes you feel like you're a seasoned operator, ready to tackle a new challenge. Sadly I kinda believe MGS3 onwards departed somewhat from this, partially because of the settings, but I'd like to see a return to form.

As far as the game itself, what can you say? Added in various new elements which really broadened the scope of the gameplay, like hanging, dropping, and first person aiming. I like the feeling that the Big Shell gives of this enclosed test space of all these challenges, and I still think having the entire game revolve around one mission in one area from start to finish is a great storytelling template for games (unlike MGS4's globetrotting or Peace Walker's dividing it up). However, this facility off of manhatten clearly is just not as interesting as Shadow Moses, the Virgin Cliffs, (umm...) Costa Rica or any of the locales in MGS4. The same can somewhat be said about the cast... probably the least interesting in the Solid series but there are some awesome standouts like Ocelot and Solidus.

Story-wise, though, this game is on some next-level stuff. Kojima challenging the social works of Richard Dawkins was pretty ballsy in MGS1, but the fact that he makes the player think about the proliferation of information as a crisis of the 21st century is kind of an unheard of thing... I've hardly heard this brought up outside of talking about the social implications of modern technology in undergrad and never has it been brought front and center like this. It's a really big issue, not to mention how ideas can take on a life of their own, much like democracy and patriotism, whatever this American ideology is, has over time. Finally, the way Kojima makes us question reality, not just of our own world, the concepts we believe in, but the reality of the game itself is also on some next-level ish. It's very hard to explain, but it's certainly never been done before or since in quite such a way, and that's why I mean absolutely no disrespect when I say MGS2 is my favorite game in the series. In a lot of ways, it's the most ambitious game, as you mentioned, Forsaken.

Here's a very cool video talking about this stuff and how bizarrely it was pulled off in Sons of Liberty:

The Reality of Metal Gear Solid 2 | THE FEATURES - Videos :: The Snake Soup

Well, that's all I got for now, interested in hearing what other EoFFers think about this bizarre, badass, thoughtful, hyper-masculine, conspiracy-crazy game.

[Wolf Kanno]

Yeah, it was a mix bag, in terms of plot/cast, it's probably my least favorite entry of the main console entries; in terms of gameplay, it favors much better but I was disappointed because I really felt most of the novel and interesting ideas are in the Tanker section while the Big Shell was kind of underwhelming in several parts.

I actually liked Raiden and I felt he did a wonderful job showing off a different side of seeing Solid Snake. Raiden himself is not a bad character and he's got an interesting back story, I just feel Rosemary and the games insistence on bringing up their relationship was what kind of killed him for most fans. I kind of feel if Rosemary wasn't there, Western fans would have liked Raiden more. She was even obnoxious to deal with in MGS4, so I really feel its Rosemary I kind of can't stand. Easily my least favorite part of the plot was the games insistence of putting 90% of the dialogue into the Codec conversations. Yeah the other MGS games are codec heavy as well but when you've got Raiden asking E.E. who is standing right next to him to call him on the Codec so you can have a 10 minute conversation explaining the plot, it gets pretty ridiculous. I also missed having a variety of backup people to talk to which is what made the codec amusing in MGS1 and MGS3. Ocelot, Olga, and Solidus are pretty good characters Vamp even has his moments but sadly Fortune, Fatman, and E.E. were not usually as fun to see. I pretty much dread the E.E. section of the game, as she sort of stands as the poster child for annoying escort missions.

The story itself is not bad but really liked to mind screw you by practically changing who the real bad guys were, and what the real point of the game was literally after every revelation. The game makes perfect sense up until you sneak into Arsenal Gear, and then the plot gets a bit fuzzy. I'm not as concerned about the "what is reality?" question, the game presents, Ghost in the Shell (or if you have to, Matrix) do a better job of creating a more plausible scenario to play with Descartes' philosophy. The power of the information age was amusing as well but it seriously reeked a bit too much of heavy conspiracy theory, and I felt it had to rely on heavier science fiction elements to make it click. If my classes have taught me anything, there are scarier things about the possibilities in the information age than the government controlling it. Of anything, Kojima simply alludes to the idea that government powers might try to recreate the control of information that happened after the Fall of the Roman Empire, but I feel it's not possible at this point. Of anything the thing the Patriots feared more about the information age is far more plausible, where useful information is drowned in a sea of useless information like videos of kittens, and facebook updates... The other annoying thing about the plot was how the game kind of ended with no real resolution. It has the most unsatisfying end for a game. What the hell are the Patriots and how did they come to be? Who is Rosemary and is her pregnancy even real? What happened to Liquid Ocelot? How does the government explain a top secret fortress crash landing in New York City? What is going to happen to Olga's child? None of this is answered, Snake just tells Raiden to live for the future and gives some sappy metaphor about his deeds being his legacy since he can't have kids, and then the game jumps into a lounge jazz song and the credits, followed by one final mind screw. Seriously, I can't be the only person who walked away from MGS2's ending and was not thinking I got shafted.

Gameplay wise, the game was definetly a step up from MGS1, guards reacting to weapons you use, where you are aiming, and actively searching for you made the game fun and more challenging. I kind of hate the Ciphers and was happy they kind of disappeared after this game cause gun camera were annoying enough in MGS1, making flying variants was just annoying. The boss fights are fun but only the Olga fight really stood out to me, cause I seriously enjoyed being able to mess with the environment in the at fight like shooting out the spotlight, or shooting the bindings on the tarp to have it fly up and blind her for a minute. It was the only boss fight that I felt really used the new physics engine for the game effectively, though seriously there were several moments like this in the Tanker itself like shooting out the lights in the gun fight at the tunnels or shooting the fire extinguisher to see the infrared laser wires. The whole section of sneaking past the marines to get photos was not only intense but also showcased Kojima's sense of humor.

Big Shell still has some interesting ideas, the sniper sections were well implemented and I really loved the whole dressing as a guard to get into the inner sanctum. Happy that got used more in MGS3 and later became a gameplay elements in the PSP entries. While Fatman was kind of annoying, his boss fight was amusing but I really liked the section before as you had to travel about trying to take out the bombs. Arsenal Gear itself was trippy but fun as hell, even harkening back to MG1 with the game breaking the fourth wall and telling you to shut off the game.

I feel Raiden gets knocked by fans cause the game kind of does hit its high points early with Snake's section. The Tanker section is just so well designed and tight, where as the Big Shell kind of has pacing issues, less use of the games overall mechanics, having to deal with Rosemary and her needy relationship, and then the final stretch mind screw definetly leaves a bad taste in your mouth. Yet, I still enjoy the overall game, maybe not "Best game ever" but I bought a PS2 finally to play this game and FFX, and while FFX was disappointing me, I was diving back into MGS2 to get more dog tags, find more secrets and maybe wrap my brain more around the plot. Besides the game did introduce what becomes the awesome Solid Snake theme.

[Forsaken Lover]

The other annoying thing about the plot was how the game kind of ended with no real resolution. It has the most unsatisfying end for a game. What the hell are the Patriots and how did they come to be? Who is Rosemary and is her pregnancy even real? What happened to Liquid Ocelot? How does the government explain a top secret fortress crash landing in New York City? What is going to happen to Olga's child? None of this is answered, Snake just tells Raiden to live for the future and gives some sappy metaphor about his deeds being his legacy since he can't have kids, and then the game jumps into a lounge jazz song and the credits, followed by one final mind screw.

I think this is one of the many rifts that separates MGS2 lovers and its detractors.

I would say being left with all those questions was precisely the point.

Raiden: Then what am I supposed to believe in?
[...]
Snake: Listen, don't obsess over words so much. Find the meaning behind the words, then decide. You can find your own name. And your own future...

Raiden: Decide for myself...?

How much of the ending was even real was a much debated topic on MGS forums. I think that was exactly what Kojima wanted. He wanted us to walk away with a ton of questions so we could come to our own conclusions about stuff. (Though, personally, I was always pretty sure Rose did in fact exist and was pregnant.)

Then people balked at this and so he made MGS4. Now nanomachiens are the answer to everything....
God I hate that game.

This is part of why I love MGS2 actually. One reason I enjoy fiction is so I can share my experiences with people on boards like these. I love to play a game or read a booka dn then chat with others who have done the same. We share our different opinions and interpretations.
MGS2 provided the most conversation of any of the Metal Gear games.

MGS4...well, the only conversation it sparked was "explain this contrived BS to me." There really is no room for debate or discussion.

Anyway, I can understand being dissatisfied with that kind of ending. It' s a very subjective thing.

Still, I think you're short-changing the credits music. I really like it.
Can't Say Goodbye to Yesterday (Full Version) - YouTube

[Edge7]

I love "Can't Say Goodbye to Yesterday". Second favorite ending song in the series (after "Way to Fall"). Anyway, although my favorite was the first game (Personal preference, I suppose), I enjoyed the second game immensely. The first time I played the game, I made it through most of the Tanker and then had to go to bed for school. I was sick the next day and made it to Arsenal Gear .

I've said this before, but I don't understand all the flack Raiden gets. Most of the issues I've had with him were his cutscenes with Rose (then again, I wasn't a huge fan of Meryl either, didn't have a problem with EVA, ironically). I'd argue that Raiden was better in MGS2, he wasn't nearly as useless (no one calls out that despite Raiden's new athleticism, he's only fighting in about 2 cutscenes, then he needs to be repaired). If you couldn't tell, my thoughts on MGS4 coincide with Forsaken.

Anyway, there were a lot of things I liked about MGS2, the Metal Gear Ray battle, the helicopter fight, which called back memories to the first game, fighting Solidus, shooting out the lights during some fights during the Tanker scene, and some of the thematic elements mentioned earlier. I also thought it was cool how we were meeting Solidus and the Gurlukovich family, characters who were mentioned but never directly in the first game.

[Marshall Banana]

Raiden! <3333333333333

[KentaRawr!]

I really like MGS2. I feel like every time I re-play it, it re-becomes my favorite Metal Gear. Any other time, MGS3 is my favorite. Right now I'm playing MGS4 for the first time, and I'm actually really liking it, but I feel like it's important to recognize that each game has its own issue that it's trying to address, and its own theme. A lot of the mystery was removed from MGS2 due to "lolnanomachines" (SPOILER)like Vamp, but I feel like the presence of those nanomachines is meant to drive home some point about human life becoming a commodity for the rich once humans are controlled, and how maybe that is a necessary evil... or something. But I'll have to beat the game first, obviously.

But yeah, I loved MGS2. I got MGS2: Substance but for some reason it never runs on my PS2, so I played it at a friend's house. We did so many VR missions it was crazay. Then, when we actually played the campaign (I had already played the original version a few times), we were trying to remember how many times you had to squeeze a guy's neck for them to pass out. We did it one too many times, and then there was that awkward moment where we accidentally killed someone and stuffed their body in a locker. That was a pleasant memory.

[Raistlin]

MGS2 was really fun gameplay-wise. I haven't replayed it since two play throughs back when it first came out (though I did replay the Tanker section a few more times -- definitely the best part of the game), but I did enjoy the game. Raiden was a bit of a let-down, but mostly just because he wasn't Snake. I didn't love him, but I didn't think he was terrible by himself. Rosemary, on the other hand, was unbearable. The plot was another weak point, as has been mentioned. But I still consider it a good game, despite the common derision.

[Wolf Kanno]

The other annoying thing about the plot was how the game kind of ended with no real resolution. It has the most unsatisfying end for a game. What the hell are the Patriots and how did they come to be? Who is Rosemary and is her pregnancy even real? What happened to Liquid Ocelot? How does the government explain a top secret fortress crash landing in New York City? What is going to happen to Olga's child? None of this is answered, Snake just tells Raiden to live for the future and gives some sappy metaphor about his deeds being his legacy since he can't have kids, and then the game jumps into a lounge jazz song and the credits, followed by one final mind screw.

I think this is one of the many rifts that separates MGS2 lovers and its detractors.

I would say being left with all those questions was precisely the point.

Raiden: Then what am I supposed to believe in?
[...]
Snake: Listen, don't obsess over words so much. Find the meaning behind the words, then decide. You can find your own name. And your own future...

Raiden: Decide for myself...?

How much of the ending was even real was a much debated topic on MGS forums. I think that was exactly what Kojima wanted. He wanted us to walk away with a ton of questions so we could come to our own conclusions about stuff. (Though, personally, I was always pretty sure Rose did in fact exist and was pregnant.)

Then people balked at this and so he made MGS4. Now nanomachiens are the answer to everything....
God I hate that game.

This is part of why I love MGS2 actually. One reason I enjoy fiction is so I can share my experiences with people on boards like these. I love to play a game or read a booka dn then chat with others who have done the same. We share our different opinions and interpretations. MGS2 provided the most conversation of any of the Metal Gear games.

MGS4...well, the only conversation it sparked was "explain this contrived BS to me." There really is no room for debate or discussion.

Anyway, I can understand being dissatisfied with that kind of ending. It' s a very subjective thing.

Still, I think you're short-changing the credits music. I really like it.
Can't Say Goodbye to Yesterday (Full Version) - YouTube

I didn't short change the end song I simply stated it was a lounge jazz song, but on to more important things.

For me MGS2 just lacked catharsis, killing Solidus wasn't very satisfactory (despite being a pretty good boss fight) partially cause I was rooting for his cause and I kind of felt the whole scenario of their duel was a bit forced by the writing gods. Kojima pulled this same stunt in MGS4 where several of the character deaths and sub-plots were completely unnecessary. The other issue is that while MGS2 left some questions hanging, I could never shake the feeling that the game just ended for the sake of it, and all the resolution and answers were suppose to be there, just cut out and left. Here you are with Snake giving you a pep talk about not worrying about the total mind screw you got, tells you to go rekindle with Rosemary, Raiden's "not girlfriend", and then Snake and Otacon were off to race to some awesome climatic "Big Damn Heroes" moment while the player is kind of told he's not cool enough to come along. It's not that the ending just left you hanging with some questions, it was also that it implied all those questions will be answered off screen. At best it was a Back to the Futue Part 2 ending where the answers would be answered in some future installment, at worst it felt like Neon Genesis Evangelion's TV ending where the answers to a lot of questions were answered off screen and the ending decided to just focus on one part of the story.

I also never felt the idea "was any of this real?" was actually a question left hanging, I felt the game explained everything pretty well, it's just it's rapid fire plot-twist revelation action was not very graceful way to tell the player and I felt that's where the confusion comes from. Despite that, I can agree that MGS2 definetly left players with the most discussion points.

[Mirage]

Consider it appreciated.

[Forsaken Lover]

For me MGS2 just lacked catharsis, killing Solidus wasn't very satisfactory (despite being a pretty good boss fight) partially cause I was rooting for his cause and I kind of felt the whole scenario of their duel was a bit forced by the writing gods.

This I can agree with. Being forced to fight and kill Solidus was thematic in that you wer doing something you probably didn't want to do and it was on the orders of the real villains, but it did feel kinda unnecessary.
Kinda like Solidus' line to Raiden about killing his parents. I get what Kojima was going for but it wasn't done that well.

Kojima pulled this same stunt in MGS4 where several of the character deaths and sub-plots were completely unnecessary.

Ya know, it felt like every game after MGS2 had a team of bosses just for the sake of having to meet some boss quota.

The Cobras, with the exception of The End and The Sorrow, had no real personality. What's more, you can take all of them out of the game and it doesn't hurt the story at all.

Same for the Beauty & The Beast Unit.

At best it was a Back to the Futue Part 2 ending where the answers would be answered in some future installment, at worst it felt like Neon Genesis Evangelion's TV ending where the answers to a lot of questions were answered off screen and the ending decided to just focus on one part of the story.

Well it definitely wasn't the former. Kojima has said on record that he intended to end the series with 2.

[Psychotic]

Nothing against Raiden, he's a nice fella. He's just not my gruff manly Snake though (NOT GAY)

The gameplay was a huge step up from MGS1. The first person viewpoint ability to shoot was great, and all the little details like shooting radios, holding up guards and using lockers were all brilliant.

However, I feel the game sort of rings hollow compared to MGS1 and 3. The boss fights were less enjoyable fights than the ones in 1 and 3. Final boss fights aside (They were great in all three!) how many fights were as great as Ninja, Mantis, Raven or Wolf? Or indeed that vastly underrated fight v the Ocelot Unit, or the Sorrow, or the duel vs the End? That's not to say the boss battles in 2 were bad, of course not, but they were just a little bit bland by comparison.

The story also left a lot of unanswered questions and plot arcs, which Kanno covered, whereas 1 and 3 wrapped up almost everything for me. I also preferred the setting of Shadow Moses and Russia (I am not even going to attempt to spell the place name) to the Big Shell.

[Iceglow]

I am disappoint with Paul. What he should definitely have mentioned imho is that a massive longstanding tradition this game left us with. Every time we meet up and cross a bridge, any bridge we always start quoting "The Hudson River, 2 years ago!" in really gruff voices. Simultaneously usually this has done everything from draw weird and frightened looks to knowing smiles, and laughs.

Still I really enjoyed 2 for it's game play, I also did enjoy the story line though I understand what the other guys are saying about 1 and 3. I've never played 4 and to be fair I'm not too sure I want to play 4 after hearing so many bad opinions on it. I mean Metal Gear is one of my favourite series on the Playstation and somehow I feel like I'd love the game play on it but would hate the story. Something which would be a shame considering I have thoroughly enjoyed all 3 of the Metal Gear Solid Series I have played. Still if I ever decide the time is ripe to buy a PS3 you can guarantee that MGS4 will be one of the few games I ever buy for it.

The Metal Gear games have always had awesome soundtracks and 2 was certainly no exception. I definitely feel that the main theme peaked in 2 even if the very end half minute or so of the 3rd's soundtrack has got a huge amount of merit to it.

Metal Gear Solid full theme.
Metal Gear Solid 2 full theme.
Metal Gear Solid 3 full theme.
Metal Gear Solid 4 full theme.

The main changes to the theme song for MGS4 was due to the fact that Konami got sued by the Russians who claimed the "motif" theme music used across the first 3 games was essentially plagiarism of a Russian song by Georgy Vasilevich Sviridov called The Winter Road composed in 1974. I think there's a definite case for it. As a direct result of the lawsuit they were unable to use the original motif theme song present in 1 through to 3 for 4 but they were granted the right to use the remixed version from MGS3 as it was decided that the remixed version was in itself it's own creation. Though I will given the choice take a listen to the orchestrated MGS theme I prefer the MGS theme to the song it was plagiarized from.

[DMKA]

I tried playing it twice now (once on PS2, once on the HD collection), and I just can't seem to get into it.

I've never gotten passed the Russian lesbian with hairy armpits.

[Edge7]

Here's a test to see how well you know your Metal Gear Solid 2 Trivia!

Gary McGolden; best character in the game?