Is ATB Dead?

[Wolf Kanno]

I was reading this amusing article which brought up the issue about whether a remake of older FF games would ever work beyond a small remake level like the PSP ports of the DS remakes of III + IV because the HD generation would probably not accept the old clunky ATB system that carried FF for six games and other Square projects like Chrono Trigger.

Have RPG battle systems evolved to the point where if you want serious turn based combat you need to play a SRPG? Is the future of the major console JRPG going to be action game style combat with A.I. partners? Will I never get to see defeat cause the enemy wiped out my healer before the ATB gauge is complete, or will gamers have to adjust to sloppy A.I. or not being bale to input the proper "healing combo" commands?

Would a modern large scale remake of VI, VII, Chrono Trigger and other 90s Square gems would just not cut it without the programmers remaking the battle system and customization system to make it easier for modern gaming palette?

[Jessweeee♪]

If it ain't broke don't fix it?

[Jiro]

I think the remakes would get away with using ATB.

[Goldenboko]

That article is dumb. Square's been using ATB forever, (even their new games FFXII, and FFXIII include a version of ATB). To think they'd remove it from their most successful game in a remake is a step backwards. Square should worry about the horrible story, music, characters, and world of their newest game, instead of worrying about breaking their old ones.

[Loony BoB]

No need for it to die. If people want constant input, they'll either have the guage fill up faster or they will allow for more characters to be involved in the battles.

[Yar]

If they strip ATB from a game built on ATB, then I won't play it.

If it's too clunky or slow, speed it up! X-2 had the best ATB system ever, and it's a shame they haven't used it since!

[Wolf Kanno]

Actually, despite the naysayers, XII's form of ATB is built off the X-2 system (it just added the ability to move around and dropped the finicky combo system) which itself is closer to the original FFIV system (though greatly sped up) that predecessors dropped from V onward.

Its true that SE has never truly moved away from ATB but it is apparent with X-2 onward, their has been a serious effort to make the system more like an action game, to the point SE has decided its so fast you're better off having A.I. and pre-programmed commands cause its too much for man.

[VeloZer0]

I think the emergence of AI parties is probably the worst thing to happen to RPGs, ever.

So though I am not married to the idea of ATB over other turn based systems I am not a fan of pushing things into the 'real time' direction.

[Loony BoB]

They should make a main-numbered FF game that has AI which can be controlled by other players online or in the same room. That would be awesome. Like an MMO, only... not massive. So that way it can still have story focus. Likewise, there could be added benefits to having mutiple players such as different areas or weapons that can only be accessed if players are in different locations at the same time.

[Depression Moon]

Well I don't know what I can say about this now since others have said basically what I was going to say.

[Bolivar]

I do agree with the spirit of the article, a turn based HD game would be awkward. Could you imagine an isometric SRPG like FFTactics with super detailed HD characters who just stood around an unbelievably rendered battlefield while they waited for you to finish giving orders? It would just seem awkward and a waste of processing power, and I think the article is right about that with ATB.

However, I do think it could be done - if you had insane battle animations with close ups, zoom-outs, rotating cameras giving an awesome cinematic spotlight on every character's actions, allowing the player to have the camera switch back and forth to a standard view everytime they make selections. Actually, that's what FFVII has already done. I think it would make the remake an even more important endeavor - to challenge themselves to build upon the concept they innovated, making battle animations as creative and varied enough to stop a great-looking game from looking awkward with ATB.

Also, AI needs to stop. Immediately. There has to be some way to balance all of this and I really wish a developer would figure it out ASAP. If someone pulled off another XII (i'm sure someone has, I know Dragon Age tried it), I would love it, but I'd much rather prefer a flashier, working, HD ATB. I think it would be a challenge and a good dev should rise to the occasion.

Actually, despite the naysayers, XII's form of ATB is built off the X-2 system (it just added the ability to move around and dropped the finicky combo system) which itself is closer to the original FFIV system (though greatly sped up) that predecessors dropped from V onward.

Would you care to explain what the original FFIV system is that V and on dropped?

[Elpizo]

Would you care to explain what the original FFIV system is that V and on dropped?

I could be wrong, but I think it's that different actions take different times to load in FF IV. Firaga takes longer to cast than Fire, or Bahamut longer than Chocobo, for example. From FF V onwards, every command that was given was carried out immediatly, without load times for the spells. FF XII brought this back, I believe. Or X-2 did, but I never played that, so I don't know.

[Flying Arrow]

I do agree with the spirit of the article, a turn based HD game would be awkward. Could you imagine an isometric SRPG like FFTactics with super detailed HD characters who just stood around an unbelievably rendered battlefield while they waited for you to finish giving orders? It would just seem awkward and a waste of processing power, and I think the article is right about that with ATB.

However, I do think it could be done - if you had insane battle animations with close ups, zoom-outs, rotating cameras giving an awesome cinematic spotlight on every character's actions, allowing the player to have the camera switch back and forth to a standard view everytime they make selections. Actually, that's what FFVII has already done. I think it would make the remake an even more important endeavor - to challenge themselves to build upon the concept they innovated, making battle animations as creative and varied enough to stop a great-looking game from looking awkward with ATB.

HD realism is stupid and needs to die.

Also, AI needs to stop. Immediately. There has to be some way to balance all of this and I really wish a developer would figure it out ASAP. If someone pulled off another XII (i'm sure someone has, I know Dragon Age tried it), I would love it, but I'd much rather prefer a flashier, working, HD ATB. I think it would be a challenge and a good dev should rise to the occasion.

I doubt very many companies are willing to put the effort into an FFXII-scale game anymore. Dragon Age 1 has some similar systems, but it has absolutely nothing on XII in nearly every category that counts. As far as battles go, its AI tactics are like the homeless man's Gambits.

[Loony BoB]

To be fair, every game these days uses some kind of ATB. If you think about it, an FPS has a certain action time for each thing you do, as does a fighter game such as Street Fighter - and, much like most FF's, in fighter games some fighters are faster to do certain actions than others. I'm sure that with that in mind, whatever we get in the future, it will have some kind of ATB involved. Big spells will always take longer, each character will always have a speed stat, etc.

[VeloZer0]

You don't necessarily have to have units just standing around to to ATB or turn based. In FF12 and FF13 positioning was largely irrelevant for most fights (and complete BS for the ones it was, as you don't have any decent way of controlling it for the party) so I don't see why you can't make something turn based where the party and enemy units are moving around dynamically the whole time. It would be complete window dressing, but to be honest most of the in battle character movement is already superfluous to combat mechanics.