Ultima creator speculates that consoles are doomed...

[Rostum]

I think you're confusing the scope of this thread. We're not talking about Trion Worlds and CCP. We're talking about Rovio, Funzio, and the hordes of wanna-bes and imitators that outnumber them 10,000:1. If your definition of a real indie developer is one who's making money then I think we got some problems here. And yes, Vivi, a lot of talent from the big pubs are going independent, but a lot of those companies are facing just as harsh economic times, laying off employees and closing their doors.

Real indie developers are ones that aren't imitating, they're the ones inovating on the platform or providing incredibly polished products. Whether they make a lot of money or not isn't the main issue, but it helps to keep them alive so that they can create more content. Maybe I wasn't clear, but it doesn't seem like you understood me completely.

A lot of talent from bigger studios aren't being laid off. They are willingly getting away from the environment and starting their own.

I've seen a lot of Cut the Rope. I've heard a lot about Cut the Rope. BUT HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL NO I haven't played cut the rope. Why would I? I already have 28 addicting puzzle games on New Super Mario Bros. for the DS and I wouldn't be surprised if each and every one of them control a lot better with the stylus.

So because you have 28 puzzle games somewhere else, you wouldn't even consider playing a highly polished and great brain teaser for only 0.99c? I believe you have an Android, so they should have it on there. I suggest just giving it a go. It starts out easy but it gets harder if you want to get three stars in each level (25 levels per world, and comes with around 10 worlds that they are constantly expanding upon). Honestly, it doesn't sound like you've seen or heard much about it at all. Just that you like to close your eyes, cover your ears, and scream. I am a real gamer, and I like Cut the Rope.

And no, not everything needs to be a 60+ hour AAA online experience. But I know another title you can pick up and play for five minutes, or an hour. Valkyria Chronicles II is a 60+ hour, maybe AA experience with competitive and co-op multiplayer modes, music by one of the best composers in gaming, and an ending that will probably get you choked up. And it's only the PSP. How could smartphones ever hope to have a shot at taking the 70+ million people who bought one? (Ok, that's an exaggeration, I'm sure a lot of them have actually moved over, but you see my point.)

edit: that 5 minute experience actually applies to ALL my handheld games. These things have sleep mode! The PSP even saves your game if the battery dies. I play Dragon Quest or Pokemon for a few minutes on my shuttle back and forth from school. Sometimes I check my Facebook or gaming news instead. I like my smart phone a lot actually, it's just a bottom of the barrel option for gaming.

But that's the elitist vibe that I get from you.

I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at here anyway. What I was saying was that you can potentially get the same quality and quantity of games on a smartphone as their technology is constantly getting better and the market is there for it. Whilst you already have big publishers seeing the potential of the platform such as EA and Square Enix just as an example, you still have the guys at Nintendo and Sony closely looking at this emerging platform.

There's already signs of great games and ports coming to the platform, and there's already a lot of high quality - just as high as other handhelds - on there, despite if you personally like them or not. Keep in mind if you don't like a lot of the high quality games, or they don't interest you, it doesn't mean the majority feel the same way and that's what I'm discussing. I'm not saying I love all the games on my iPhone, I'm saying that all signs point to it continually growing at a rapid rate as a viable handheld gaming device.

The problem is that the hardware is not very well designed to facilitate playing a lot of games. I don't mean processing power, I mean the physical makeup of the machine.

This.

Whilst there are hardware add-ons you can get that could negate the issue, I'll agree. But that's not to say in the near future it will be a problem. When these hardware add-ons get better, the whole 'touch-control' issue won't be an issue at all.

[Slothy]

Ok, now those kinds of things I can get behind. But honestly I think that's a very niche market, whereas the public is aware of the Wii, PS3, and 360 and it's easy to navigate and use their same multimedia functions. Not to mention they're more reliable, less prone to issues, with more accessible interfaces.

So? Game consoles used to be a very niche market as well. One of the big things holding HTPC's back is that manufacturers haven't been quick to really market them (with the exception of stuff like Apple TV anyway, though that stumbled so hard for years it's had an uphill battle to try and gain any traction). It's also a bit of an issue that, especially outside the US, networks have been slow to allow regular TV content online. Canada is particularly bad since every network holds exclusive broadcast rights to a lot of current programs and won't let other services show them for years, not to mention those broadcasters generally being owned by the two big telecomm companies here and them not wanting to give up any edge they have over potential competition (I really hate the broadcast regulations in this country).

But as content shifts more and more to online services there's absolutely no reason that PC manufacturers couldn't market HTPC's more heavily and in direct competition with consoles. And there's nothing stopping them from developing custom front ends to stream line the experience every bit as much as consoles have. Again, the point you seem to be missing is that I'm not talking about a year from now, or two years from now. I'm talking long term, 10+ years down the road.

I don't see why more manufacturers couldn't compete directly with consoles by making HTPC's, especially when consoles are basically just HTPC's without some of the functionality that people normally think of PC's having. You seem stuck in this mindset that things could never possibly change and the console experience could never be replaced by, or even suffer competition from, something else entirely. But if the only road console manufacturers have seen fit to move down in recent times is to make them more like HTPC's, then things have already changed drastically, and it started way back when consoles started letting you play music CD's in the 90's.

I think you're confusing the scope of this thread. We're not talking about Trion Worlds and CCP. We're talking about Rovio, Funzio, and the hordes of wanna-bes and imitators that outnumber them 10,000:1. If your definition of a real indie developer is one who's making money then I think we got some problems here. And yes, Vivi, a lot of talent from the big pubs are going independent, but a lot of those companies are facing just as harsh economic times, laying off employees and closing their doors.

I hate to break it to you Bolivar, but indie developers are just what the name implies: independent. They aren't owned by another company or dependent on a publisher for funding. They aren't beholden to some executives in an office at another company half way across the country for the direction their game takes. They choose what they develop and how they want to grow their business.

Companies like Rovio are as legitimately independent developers as companies like Valve and Mojang. What they choose to make makes no difference, so I'm not sure where your elitist attitude comes from.

More to the point, taking Rovio as an example, they've built an entire business around one franchise. Not just by making and releasing Angry Birds (which is a fairly enjoyable diversion in and of itself honestly), but by expanding to include things like merchandising. Now they're getting offer of over $2 billion to sell the company and turning them down.

They're no less legitimate a developer just because they've made a casual franchise and taken it for all that it's worth. No one gives Nintendo trout for selling figures, shirts, and Mario themed chess games (my personal favourite is Donkey Kong Jenga). And certainly no one but you has ever implied that Rovio somehow doesn't know what's going on in the industry. Given their success in an emerging market, I'd say that they either know exactly what's going on with the industry, or they got very lucky. But even if it's the latter, they wouldn't be the first company that was built by some good luck.

And to address your comment about wannabes and imitators, I'm really not sure where you're going with that. Are you trying to criticize the mobile market for having a lot of derivative crap that isn't worth buying? Because I've been noticing the same thing happening on consoles for more than 20 years.

And as for the comment about indie developers going independent and then having to close up shop because the economy is rough, again, I don't see what that has to do with anything? Is it supposed to be some criticism of the mobile market that I'm not getting? Because, again, it happens to companies developing (or at least attempting to develop) AAA titles all the time.

[Bolivar]

Wow, lots of confusion here. First, I'm not saying Rovio doesn't know what's going on, obviously they're ahead of the curve when you see angry birds plushies on the board walk. I was just giving a description of some of the friends I have who are indie devs. I don't know if you guys know what the IGDA is, but I've gone to a lot of their social events here in Philadelphia, many of their prominent members are good friends of mine and I've gotten to talk to a lot of others as well. And while they're very in tune with that market, I can reiterate what I said earlier: they don't know what the big console manufacturers are up to, what the big game of the month is, and they'll never come in contact with a title that has the potential to make them cry.

Rostum, I'm not an elitist - an elitist, to me, is someone who sticks to an ideal for the sake of doing so. I'm just telling you what I like and what I don't like. I've played a lot of games on smartphones, some of which have been made by people I personally know, and I just can't say if finger-touch is a viable interface for gaming. Even if it's adequate, as you seem to be suggesting, I have no idea why I wouldn't rather grind a couple levels in Dragon Quest or catch a couple Pokemon on my commute instead.

Also, all I meant about indie devs having financial problems is that you all seem to make it sound like the big games business industry is dying and losing all of its talent for greener pastures. I agree a lot of people have "seen the light." But I was just pointing out that there's financial hardships all over, both camps are struggling, while some of their exemplars are having unprecedented success. I don't think it's particularly germane as to whether smartphones will replace handhelds, so maybe we should table that for now.

I'm not saying I love all the games on my iPhone, I'm saying that all signs point to it continually growing at a rapid rate as a viable handheld gaming device.

And like I said, we're 100% in agreement on that. I'm simply saying that while Sony and Nintendo can kiss the non-gamer crowd goodbye, dedicated handhelds are still relevant to a very strong demographic.

[Rostum]

I don't know if you guys know what the IGDA is, but I've gone to a lot of their social events here in Philadelphia, many of their prominent members are good friends of mine and I've gotten to talk to a lot of others as well. And while they're very in tune with that market, I can reiterate what I said earlier: they don't know what the big console manufacturers are up to, what the big game of the month is, and they'll never come in contact with a title that has the potential to make them cry.

I go to IGDA meetings every now and then (going to a great BBQ this Saturday!), and it really must depend on the industry location because most of the extremely talented people I meet and talk to seem to really conflict with your friends.

Rostum, I'm not an elitist - an elitist, to me, is someone who sticks to an ideal for the sake of doing so. I'm just telling you what I like and what I don't like. I've played a lot of games on smartphones, some of which have been made by people I personally know, and I just can't say if finger-touch is a viable interface for gaming. Even if it's adequate, as you seem to be suggesting, I have no idea why I wouldn't rather grind a couple levels in Dragon Quest or catch a couple Pokemon on my commute instead.

Also, all I meant about indie devs having financial problems is that you all seem to make it sound like the big games business industry is dying and losing all of its talent for greener pastures. I agree a lot of people have "seen the light." But I was just pointing out that there's financial hardships all over, both camps are struggling, while some of their exemplars are having unprecedented success. I don't think it's particularly germane as to whether smartphones will replace handhelds, so maybe we should table that for now.

It's fine if that's not what you like, but just because you don't like it doesn't mean you can close your eyes and try and dictact where the handheld market is heading. The fact is it is a hugely increasing market that is taking over, and big developers have (if not already) garnered a lot of interest in the platform. Of course, I don't doubt Nintendo and Sony won't cave in (as they've already announced they have no interest in developing for the iOS or Android). There might possibly be a case for dedicated handheld system, but in saying that I wouldn't be so surprised if you end up seeing a Nintendo smartphone or another Sony smartphone that will do it all.

I haven't exactly been discussing what you in particular like, but moreso where the market is heading in general. Whether I like it or not. And whether anyone likes it or not, you can not deny the incredible presence that smartphones have over handheld gaming at the moment.

I don't think anyone here at all is saying the big guys are dying, no way in hell. Despite the success of Rovio and Halfbrick, they're still not doing as well as the big guys. However, also keep in mind the big guys are developing for smartphones too. And despite financial hardship in indies, their overhead costs are so small that it's still viable for them to live their life doing what they love. They aren't going to making a lot of money, and I don't think they expect it, for the most part they just love their work and they live for their work (something I can't do, which is why I also freelance out to film and tv studios and have been thinking of changing careers anyway).

[G13]

Wow... Xbox 720? What a terrible name.

[Laddy]

...Says the guy who hasn't made a good game in fifteen years...

[Bolivar]

It's fine if that's not what you like, but just because you don't like it doesn't mean you can close your eyes and try and dictact where the handheld market is heading.

I don't know how many times I can say "I agree with you 100%" before it starts broadcasting out into space and alien historians believe those words were earth's planetary anthem

[Rostum]

It's fine if that's not what you like, but just because you don't like it doesn't mean you can close your eyes and try and dictact where the handheld market is heading.

I don't know how many times I can say "I agree with you 100%" before it starts broadcasting out into space and alien historians believe those words were earth's planetary anthem

WHY WON'T YOU AGREE WITH ME.