Dark Souls

[Ultima Shadow]

@ Pike: Are you just having the wall-hitting problem in narrow places? Because in that case, the problem could simply be that you try to use horizonal attacks too much in those places. In really narrow places, almost all horizonal attacks will end up hitting the wall, so try vertical attacks instead.

As long as you're locked on to an enemy, I can't think of another reason for things to go wrong since you usually can't even turn away from an enemy that you are locked on to.

Experiment with the different kinds of attacks (light/heavy and after rolls etc) to see what works best.

[Pike]

I don't know what the different attacks are because they just infodumped all of the controls on you at the beginning of the game rather than showing you as you went along and allowing you to learn bit by bit as all good games should do

[Pete for President]

I don't know what the different attacks are because they just infodumped all of the controls on you at the beginning of the game rather than showing you as you went along and allowing you to learn bit by bit as all good games should do

Oh hold on, now you're just not trying. That mentality will get you nowhere in this game. Implying the game is bad for actually letting the player play the game rather than holding his/her hand isn't a very strong argument.

So one more tip: learn by doing. No-one will show you the ropes. It is you, on your own, making your way through Lordran step by step. It is the essence of Dark Souls and it is a glorious experience

[kotora]

thought you were hardcore pike

[Pike]

There's a difference between a hardcore game and a game that is difficult through poor game design

Anyways I said I was going to give it another try, ya'll should relax!

[Madame Adequate]

No an infodump is bad game design, that's not really up for debate. Dark Souls gets great when you get the hang of it, and if the game literally said "smurf off we're not telling you anything" then that'd be one thing, but it does try to teach you the controls and it does do so as an infodump so it's perfectly legitimate to criticize the game on that front.

Which is bad game design. It is known.

[Pete for President]

Hohoho, it's not an infodump by a long shot. Remember those screens with only a controller on it that only shows it's controls once and you'll just have to remember it without doing anything with it? Like they used to do in demo's and stuff? That's what I call an infodump. Dark Souls breaks it down pretty nicely:

An item lights up from the body dropped from the roof, the player has to get it and use it to proceed. A sign tells you the attack command, the game provides a helpless enemy for the player to put these controls to test. A sign tells you the dash command in the long hallway where the player can see everything (in other words; no surprises incoming). The command shows to climb a ladder, pretty intuitive. It then goes on to tell you running away from enemies is not a failure, and sometimes you have to take a risk to get something you want. The ball in your face tells you to always watch where you are going. All of these tutorial bits are exact practices of what will help you through the game, and that is pretty phenomenal game design to me.

I do believe the parrying mechanics could use some more enlightenment, but other than that the core mechanics are explained in a brilliant interactive way.

[Pike]

I put another couple of hours into this. I'm not hitting walls anymore now that I figured out targeting, even though the targeting feels like a gimped version of the Z-targeting from Ocarina of Time.

When does this game get fun? I'm not having any fun yet xD

[Pete for President]

One can not describe when the fun starts in Dark Souls. But don't worry; it'll come, along with many other emotions.

[Pike]

I loaded it up again because you said that but then I quit again ten minutes later xD

[Madame Adequate]

Sorry Pete but I don't agree. First of all you just said yourself on the last page that "nobody is going to hold your hand" and stuff It taught how to pick up items and how to move around fine but pretty much everything else was a ridiculous trial, which factors in with the whole thing where your first hours with the game are unfun bulltrout. How many people say "The game doesn't get fun for a few hours" or "It's not good until Parish" or that you have to "Man up and hobble through" or other things along those lines? I've already made clear I think DaS gets pretty great after you put some time into it, but it's a stupid amount of time you have to put in to get to that point and that is bad design. Any other game that did that would be roundly condemned, but Dark Souls apparently gets a pass because it's "supposed to be difficult". No: O&S are difficult because you need to figure out what they do, what they're weak to, and learn how to deal with their moves and attacks. That's good. The early hours of the game are difficult because the game has a fairly poor control scheme and the tutorial is severely lacking. That's bad.

[I Took the Red Pill]

I don't even really understand the genesis of this debate. The controls for attacking are quite simple. R1 is a weak attack. R2 is a strong attack. There are some subtleties like the post-roll attack and the post-backstep attack but these are things you don't need to worry about in the beginning of the game. I had no idea about the post-roll attack for awhile but I discovered it naturally at some point.

I think it's a lot cooler to discover things like this in context than through a tutorial. And I think this example is something of a microcosm of the game itself. The self-discovery of the game is rewarding to me. I don't chalk it up to poor game design but if you're not into this sort of thing I guess I can understand where you're coming from.

[Pike]

I wasn't asking for a tutorial I don't think I'm explaining myself well. I'm having trouble coming up with a good way to explain what I mean. Oh well.

[I Took the Red Pill]

I wasn't try to give a tutorial, I was trying to defend the control scheme. I don't think it's poor game design, and I think that Pete gave a good explanation of how the actual tutorial you're given "works" to introduce you to the very basics of how the game works. I don't see how it could possibly construed as an "infodump". The controls are simpler than most modern games and easy to remember. After that you just go out and learn the intricacies of the game's combat system yourself.

All that being said, of course it's possible that some people just won't like the game. And you could be one of those people. But don't like to think of it as a "stick with it until you start having fun" mentality. I prefer to think of it more like "stick with it and it will grow on you" kind of thing. It's cool to look back once you're far into the game at how little you knew in the beginning, and how you've learned to adapt.

[Pike]

I wasn't try to give a tutorial

I know you weren't, I was replying to your "I think it's a lot cooler to discover things like this in context than through a tutorial" remark.