Failed Consoles

[krissy]

speaking of ending up on different consoles

JET SET RADIOOOOO will be on psn and xbl in the summer
so grab that up ukno

[Slothy]

The Dreamcast having SoulCalibur 1 doesn't give it an advantage over every other home console that generation that got SoulCalibur 2.

Depends on who you ask. In some ways SC1 was better than SC2, and I'm far from the only one who would argue it. Largely due to ring outs being easier and therefore a much bigger threat, which meant zoning was vastly more important. I think they were a bit too easy, but they were also dialed a bit too far the other way in SC2. So I'd say SC1 actually was the better fighting game, but SC2 had a more diverse character roster since there was more differentiation between the cloned characters and Weapon Master mode is still the best training mode I've ever seen.

Honestly, based on the strength of the DC's launch lineup, had Sega not been so inept in the marketing department I think things would have turned out a lot differently because even if games were later ported or had sequels transition to other consoles, it was only because where the hell else could they go? The DC was basically dead at that point. Somewhat ironic too since it had roughly 50% of the sales of the Gamecube or Xbox in less than half the lifetime of either. Had Sega not dropped the ball I think it easily could have outperformed those two in lifetime sales.

[Roto13]

The Dreamcast having SoulCalibur 1 doesn't give it an advantage over every other home console that generation that got SoulCalibur 2.

Depends on who you ask. In some ways SC1 was better than SC2, and I'm far from the only one who would argue it. Largely due to ring outs being easier and therefore a much bigger threat, which meant zoning was vastly more important. I think they were a bit too easy, but they were also dialed a bit too far the other way in SC2. So I'd say SC1 actually was the better fighting game, but SC2 had a more diverse character roster since there was more differentiation between the cloned characters and Weapon Master mode is still the best training mode I've ever seen.

I think your post does a better job of arguing why SC2 was better than the other way around. >_>

[Del Murder]

I got my brother a Virtual Boy a while back. That thing is a clunker. The instructions even say not to play for more than 15 min at a time. lol

The Wario game was pretty fun, though.

[Roto13]

I got my brother a Virtual Boy a while back. That thing is a clunker. The instructions even say not to play for more than 15 min at a time. lol

The Wario game was pretty fun, though.

I figure if Wario Land and Mario Clash get 3DS Virtual Console releases or remakes, the Virtual Boy will become completely unnecessary. :P

[Slothy]

I think your post does a better job of arguing why SC2 was better than the other way around. >_>

Depends on how you look at it. I'll take a better fighting game with a slightly less diverse cast of characters over a worse fighting game with marginally more diversity and a better single player since multiplayer is the important part in a fighting game anyway. Doesn't mean I didn't play the hell out of SC2 though. I just find the fighting more enjoyable in SC1.

[Roto13]

More rings outs =/= better fighting game.

But ok.

[Slothy]

More rings outs =/= better fighting game.

But ok.

Matter of opinion. I liked more ring outs because it made positioning far more important than in the later games. You didn't just have to be better than your opponent and watch how close you were to them, you had to watch where you were within the arena because letting the fight go towards the edge of an arena could be a huge risk. Of course, you could also try and use that to your advantage to try and win, especially if you were losing a fight badly. It made for some really interesting decision making and strategies which were unique to Soul Calibur compared to other fighting games and were a huge part of the game, but were then lessened to a huge degree with each successive entry as ring outs became increasingly difficult to perform, and something you barely had to worry about because the number of situations where it was a threat were reduced to a small handful. Honestly, the harder ring outs became the more SC moved from something unique and interesting into the realm of a being a standard 3D fighter with weapons and absurdly dressed characters.

[Roto13]

If you're playing against someone who doesn't suck entirely, you still definitely need to be aware of where you are on the stage. Ring outs still happen all the time, but the game isn't sumo with swords, and it absolutely never should be. Ring outs are why Kilik is the only character anyone ever uses online in SCIV.

If anything, SCII has more depth if only for replacing some of those ring outs with wall attacks. Not every stage has to be a floating island.

Ring outs are also far from unique and interesting in 3D fighters. They've been the standard since Virtua Fighter 1.

[Mirage]

If you look at tournament matches in SC5, you will notice that the players are usually *very* aware of their positioning relative to the stage's edges (those who aren't are usually eliminated early in the tournament by a ring out!), and it's not uncommon of them to eat a hit just to get away from an edge. And even at this level of play, where both players are extremely aware of the very real possibility of getting ringed out, a significant amount of tournament matches are still won by ring outs.

I watch a lot of high level streams for 5 (as well as play the game myself, of course, but not as much as I'd like, and i'm not as good as i'd like to be either), and I'm pretty certain that if ring outs were significantly much easier to perform in that game, the game would be so reliant on ring outs that any other strategy would feel pointless, and we'd lose a lot of depth and variety.

[Slothy]

I'm less familiar with SCIV and V Mirage, so perhaps things are different now, and I have no doubt ring outs play a big part of high level competitive play. That's kind of the point I was making though, they should be a big part of competitive play because they do lead to some interesting situations and decision making. And yes Roto, ring outs still happen in SC2. I don't recall denying that. But they are less frequent and not just because of stage design. I would have liked things a bit closer to the SC1 end of the spectrum, but again, I fully admit as well that SC1 was a smidge too far to that end as well. Somewhere in between both games would have been ideal for me. Yet I seem to recall SC3 straying even farther into reducing ring out territory, but my memory may be failing me because it was a pretty bad game overall.

And yes, ring outs were part of Virtua Fighter as well. But I have a hard time thinking of a series which is less accessible to new players than Virtua Fighter, and stages were usually big enough that they were less of a consideration than in SC (at least with 4 and 5 where I picked up the series). But that's literally only one other fighting game. I can't recall any other 3D fighters where ring outs play even a somewhat minor role off hand. I've never seen them in any of the Tekken games that I've played (not a big fan though so perhaps I missed them somewhere). And stuff like Power Stone didn't have them either. I guess there's Smash Bros where it's the only way to beat your opponent, but that's pretty much a 2D series.

And now I find myself wondering how we even got this far off topic. The point was never that SC1 was better than 2 anyway (even if I do like it more in some ways). The point was that the Dreamcast had a killer lineup of titles and had it gotten the marketing support it needed from Sega things probably would have gone much differently for it. The fact that titles were later re-released on other consoles, or that sequels moved to other systems two or three years after it was dead and buried doesn't really change any of that.

[Mirage]

I've played SC since the second installment, and I don't think there is a very big difference in how "easy" it was to ring out someone between then and now, I just think that it has always been really easy to get ringed out if you don't pay attention when you play against someone who is actually good. I think the main thing that changes ringoutfriendliness between installments is how the properties of various characters' attacks are changed, not stage designs.

In SC5 there are also destructable walls on some stages, so which positions are safe from ringouts actually varies over the length of the battle. A wall might stop a ring out once, but then there's a big hole in it where you could suddenly get ringed out now, so you have to pay attention to where the walls are broken.