Dream Zanarkand

[Madame Adequate]

Given the complete unpreparedness of the people for Sin's attack, the chaos that ensues, Tidus' total ignorance, and the fact that Dream Zanarkand believes itself to exist in the time before Sin, I think we can fairly reasonably say that the Zanarkand we see at the start of the game knows nothing about Sin.

[Jiro]

Yeah that look on Tidus' face is definitely one of "wtf is that thing" and not "omg sin!" He also is confused when people talk about Sin. But I think the face says everything.

[Shauna]

I will never sleep again.

[Jessweeee♪]

Yeah that look on Tidus' face is definitely one of "wtf is that thing" and not "omg sin!" He also is confused when people talk about Sin. But I think the face says everything.

What in the smurf.

[Pete for President]

This is just speculation, but one of Tidus' lines always makes me wonder. At some point Wakka asks (even looked up the full script faq for this one):

"Wakka: "So, uh...they got fiends in Zanarkand, too?

"Tidus: "Just a few. It's a big deal when one shows up, though."

I like to think Tidus is referring to his first encounter with Sin. After all, it is a big deal when it shows up. But then again the 'just a few' part already breaks it down, so it's probably just my own make-believe. Unless he's just saying that to not sound like a weirdo from DZ...

[ReloadPsi]

What I don't get is how Sin is able to enter dream Zanarkand, bring Jecht out of dream Zanarkand into the real world, and subsequently I don't get how Jecht, theoretically an Aeon from a Fayth's imagination (well Aeons are the manifestation of a Fayth's thoughts, so...) is able to become a Fayth himself. Does that mean he could've dreamed a second (very small) dream Zanarkand and made an infinite amount of himself, had he not lost his self-awareness inside Sin of course?

And does that mean dream Zanarkand actually physically exists somewhere?

I've always blamed this on bad translation but I can't imagine it being written any better in the original Japanese script.

[Jiro]

This is just speculation, but one of Tidus' lines always makes me wonder. At some point Wakka asks (even looked up the full script faq for this one):

"Wakka: "So, uh...they got fiends in Zanarkand, too?

"Tidus: "Just a few. It's a big deal when one shows up, though."

I like to think Tidus is referring to his first encounter with Sin. After all, it is a big deal when it shows up. But then again the 'just a few' part already breaks it down, so it's probably just my own make-believe. Unless he's just saying that to not sound like a weirdo from DZ...

That one gets me too. Maybe they just have your ordinary run-of-the-mill angry animals, because obviously fiends can't exist in DZ -- although maybe they could? smurf. I don't know. But he can't be referring to Sin's visit because "just a few" is not what you say when your city gets steamrolled by Sin.

[Goldenboko]

You guys are talking about perhaps my favorite plot topic of all time so big post to follow regarding entire thread: also FULL OF SPOILERS


Interpretation is always important to a good piece of art in my opinion, yes I'm pretty much calling FFX art. Dream Zanarkand was never 100% fleshed out in the story, it isn't fully explained, but it is explained enough to both suspend disbelief and provide a pretty killer plot twist. Any type of fully explaining Dream Zanarkand would've completely destroyed the Majesty and mystery that made it interesting (I'm looking at you midi-chlorians).

Does Dream Zanarkand - the one Tidus is from - actually exist? Obviously it is a dream of the fayth and all, but does it maintain a constant progression of time or is Tidus simply "born" into Spira with all these memories?

This appears to be a yes. QUEUE SCRIPT!

Tidus: What did you do?

Fayth: The remaining summoners and the townspeople that survived the war...
They all became fayth-fayth for the summoning.

Tidus: The summoning... You mean Sin?

Fayth: No. I mean this place. A Zanarkand that never sleeps.

Tidus: What?

Fayth: The dreams of the fayth summoned the memories of the city. They summoned all the buildings, all the people who lived there.

The Fayth clearly labels you, Jecht, and all of Dream Zanarkand a "summon". This is pretty important, for all intensive purposes, Tidus and all of Dream Zanarkand are Aeons. Unlike Aeons though, the Fayth dreaming the inhabitants are also spending a lot of their time dreaming buildings, streets, lights, etc. which probably explains why Tidus wasn't sufficient for Yu Yevon to take control of and begin reconstructing Sin out of.

I still want to know how the smurf Jecht got to Spira.

And then travelled back to a dream world as Sin to retrieve his son.


Another Final Fantasy game with a shoddy time travel plot.

Your post makes me question if you played the whole game (as there is no actually time travel plot). It's pretty simple actually, and it brings up my next point: he swam there as Sin, it is this fact that really ties the whole plot together.

Yu Yevon was the leader of the inhabitants of Old Zanarkand, when Bevelle came and destroyed they gathered together under his instruction, and turned into the Fayth to dream Dream Zanarkand, so that Zanarkand may live on in some form. But Fayth cannot summon, it is Yu Yevon who actually summons Dream Zanarkand to the real world along with Sin. This is what links, Sin, Yu Yevon, and Tidus. This is why when Yu Yevon is defeated, Tidus disappears, because Tidus kills the one who is summoning him.

Fayth: Well?

Tidus: We fight Yu Yevon.

Fayth: Yes... If you defeat Yu Yevon, it will end. Tell me, what do you know about Yu Yevon?

Tidus: He's what makes Sin come back!

Yuna: Sin is his armor. It protects him.

Fayth: Yu Yevon was once a summoner, long ago. He was peerless. Yet now he lives for one purpose: only to summon. He is neither good, nor evil. He is awake, yet he dreams. But...maybe not forever.

Yuna: I don't know. What if Yu Yevon jumps again?

Tidus: Then we'll take it down again! We'll fight him until there's no place
left to run!

Yuna: I never thought it would come down to this.

Tidus: Yeah, I know. Hey, the fayth, they're tired of this whole thing, too.
Let's let them rest.

Yuna: The fayth said it's pointless to keep dreaming. The dream will disappear, he said. What did he mean? And what is it that Yu Yevon is summoning from within Sin?

Tidus: The dream of the fayth.

So, Tidus is pretty much a summon as we've decided before. His fayth is the fayth pile on top of Mt. Gagazet, and he is summoned by Yu Yevon. Sin is summoned by Yu Yevon, to protect him during the summoning of Dream Zanarkand and to protect Dream Zanarkand.

I think you could travel there by airship, it's just that there haven't been any airships since Sin came about. The Al Bhed find one, but they're too busy kicking Sin's ass once they get it in the air. As for traveling by boat, I always wondered if maybe the city was in the sky. Or maybe they need a pokemon that knows Whirlpool.

Jess has got this one pretty much wrapped up, except it can't be in the sky. The most logical conclusion drawn from the game is that it is in the middle of the Ocean somewhere.

This explains:

1. How Jecht got to Spira
   
   When Yuna and Tidus are talking about Jecht on the S.S. Liki, Tidus says
   
   

   Tidus: He went out to sea for training one day...and never came back. And no one's seen him since then.

   Literally right after this Sin attacks their boat. If that isn't suppose to send a message than I don't know what is. Let's not forget that a few scenes before that we saw Sin attack the boat Rikku was on, and right after that we watch Sin destroy Killika. The game makes it pretty clear, if you go near the ocean Sin is going to smurf you up. But, that's not to say he leaves no survivors, let's not forget all of the people on the boat with Rikku survived. It's pretty easy to assume Jecht sailed out too far, got Sin's attention, Sin destroyed his boat and said "meh, problem solved.", but didn't realize he was dealing with the dream of a Legendary Blitzer, a sport where you breath under water and beat the crap out of each other.
   
2. How Sin can travel back and forth from Spira to Dream Zanarkand
   
   Pretty much obvious, Sin is the one who's stopping anyone from sailing randomly to the middle of the ocean, nothings going to stop him from making a surprise visit.
   
3. Why no one from Spira has ever stumbled upon it
   
   No fleet or army had a chance to stand up to sin, let alone on his own turf (the ocean). If you got far enough into the Ocean and Sin wanted you dead. You probably are. It took 1,000 years for someone to slip through (Jecht).
   
4. How Auron gets there
   
   This one does seem like the biggest stretch when you first think about it. Jecht has enough willpower to stop himself from doing the main goal Yu Yevon set him out to do? Consider the link in the last point. When given the task to kill those he has no connection to, he does it with brutal efficiency. When given the task later on to kill you, Yuna, and others he cares about, he really puts up little fight. His most powerful attack he shows off to the crew as a warning, letting them know "Hey, be careful, I'm about to use this to try and kill you. FREAKING STOP ME."
   
   Jecht says in your final encounter with him, "I can't hear the Hymn so well anymore. Pretty soon, I'm gonna be Sin. Completely." Sin has only been defeated not even a single handful of times (too lazy to think of the exact number). The progression to becoming Sin is gradual, some Final Aeons had decades to become fully possessed. Jecht had been Sin a relatively short amount of time which is why he still had control to allow Auron to come and go.

(SPOILER)

isn't it because all three of them are unsent? We know Auron is, and Jecht is Sin, and at the end we see Tidus disappear. I think that's the main reason -- they're intrinsically dreams of the fayth, to an extent. One could argue that Seymour could go there too if he wanted, and whoever else in the ranks of Yevon who are dead.

I think it's somewhat intentional that the plot is 'shoddy.' I think it adds to the story if it's a little uneven in this context. It makes the mystery all the more interesting... and plus, we wouldn't still be talking about it if it was all laid out in stone.



I don't think you can reach dream Zanarkand by airship because it's kind of like Heaven... you can't go up in a plane and just 'keep going' until you get there. But then of course you get into religious arguments about the very existence of Heaven in the first place. I think that because it's a dream of the fayth, such an idea is implied. The play on words is illuminating in that regard.

1. Technically Jecht and Tidus aren't unsent. They don't even exist.

2. I don't like the plot of the game I'm playing to "be mysterious" because Square was too lazy to come up with answers to the mess they created.


Also, how the hell does Tidus think that Zanarkand is the only place that exists....EVER?

There's a lot about Dream Zanarkand fleshed out throughout. They answered a lot of questions in the dialogues, indirectly. Any direct answer to most of these questions wouldn't have had the powerful affect that the clues given throughout the game did.

[Mirage]

What I don't get is how Sin is able to enter dream Zanarkand, bring Jecht out of dream Zanarkand into the real world, and subsequently I don't get how Jecht, theoretically an Aeon from a Fayth's imagination (well Aeons are the manifestation of a Fayth's thoughts, so...) is able to become a Fayth himself. Does that mean he could've dreamed a second (very small) dream Zanarkand and made an infinite amount of himself, had he not lost his self-awareness inside Sin of course?

And does that mean dream Zanarkand actually physically exists somewhere?

I've always blamed this on bad translation but I can't imagine it being written any better in the original Japanese script.

Dream Zanarkand physically exists in the same way that summoned Aeons physically exist. All residents of Dream Zanarkand are in fact mini-aeons with free wills, as well as the city itself. Except the city isn't self-aware.

Sin can enter Zanarkand because it exists physically, far far out in the ocean. No one else can get that far out because then Sin will just smack them to pieces. It doesn't exist in a separate time and/or space from the regular Spira. The word "dream" shouldn't be taken literally like what we normally think a dream is. That's probably where the confusion stems from. It's not really a bad translation, just that the script is, probably intentionally, made to be a bit diffuse and require some interpretation to "get".

-edit-
And I didn't expand Goldenboko's spoiler until after I had made this post.

[ReloadPsi]

Dream Zanarkand physically exists in the same way that summoned Aeons physically exist. All residents of Dream Zanarkand are in fact mini-aeons with free wills, as well as the city itself. Except the city isn't self-aware.

Sin can enter Zanarkand because it exists physically, far far out in the ocean. No one else can get that far out because then Sin will just smack them to pieces. It doesn't exist in a separate time and/or space from the regular Spira. The word "dream" shouldn't be taken literally like what we normally think a dream is. That's probably where the confusion stems from. It's not really a bad translation, just that the script is, probably intentionally, made to be a bit diffuse and require some interpretation to "get".

-edit-
And I didn't expand Goldenboko's spoiler until after I had made this post.

I suspected this might be the case. I've never encountered any outright confirmation, though I myself once oversimplified dream Zanarkand as "a whole freakin' pantheon of Aeons" when someone asked, but then that's why I decided to pose the question because I thought I might be wrong.

[Jessweeee♪]

I was gonna start a new thread for this but then I realized it goes better here.

I was playing FFX yesterday and got to that part in Operation Mi'ihen where Kinoc says to Auron, "Just tell me one thing, Auron. Have you seen Zanarkand?" I've always assumed he meant Dream Zanarkand because well no tit he's seen the Zanarkand ruins if Braska defeated Sin, but I never thought about the implications of that.

Do you think the Yevon higher-ups know about Dream Zanarkand? Do you wonder if maybe they do anything to keep it isolated? Do you think they believed Jecht and that's why they locked him up? It certainly explains why they named themselves after Yu-Yevon.

[Goldenboko]

I always took that as a jab at Auron, that Auron believed Jecht and looked for help to carry out his will and no one believed him so Kinoc was kinda trying to shove in his face "There's no machina Zanarkand". Because Kinoc is a douche. Still can be easily interpreted either way.

[Jiro]

I think douchey Kinoc is more likely but if the institution of Yevon knows about Dream Zanarkand then that opens up a whole bag of trout. Honestly though, you think they would somehow use that to their advantage. "Dreams" are easier to sacrifice than your own people, no?

[dunk]

This is some what far fetched, but at the same time makes some sense.

Forget the whole ocean idea, i think thats bull.

I think DZ is inside sin, and just like when you encounter jecht inside sin, (in a zanarkand setting might i add) he put himself into the dream, and sucked his son out and popped him out in spira.

As we know, jecht doesn't have full control over his sin body, so his method of retrieving tidus can't really be explained since hes able too appear human in the next encounter. However i think its still possible.

Breakdown:
Previous sin ( maybe through the fayths influence) sucks jecht out.
Jecht fails hard.
Sin-Jecht sucks (now dead auron) up into zanarkand.
Auron waits for tidius too grow up. 10 years later...
Jecht comes back for both of them, and spits them out into spira.

In other words, Sin himself is capable of entering the realm created within himself. AKA DZ.

Why jecht sucks him up and throws him too besaid i dont got a clue but thank smurf he did .

[Goldenboko]

It's a cool theory, but it kinda doesn't make sense considering in the very first scene of the game Sin shows up in DZ and blows it to high hell. Instead its more likely Jecht dreams of DZ and therefore being a faith, is able to reproduce some of it.