FF/RPGs/Gaming Demographics (Split from the other thread)

[Trumpet Thief]

Just chiming in to say that this is a very interesting thread. I was honestly clueless about the various demographics about Final Fantasy games. Off of pure assumption, I probably would have said something like '14-16 year olds'. Very cool to know that there is a huge adult population invested in video games.

[darkchrono]

Well you might not care about why they are playing as long as they are playing. But why they are playing will have an impact on how much effort they are willing to put into a game. Also I wouldn't necessarily call someone who only plays to kill time as being much of a gamer. That's like calling someone who only watches a t.v. show half-heartedly while doing three other things at the same time a die hard fan of that show.

Well, if you're using "gamer" to mean "video game enthusiast or connoisseur", then I'd argue that very few people fall under that category for something like films as well. Not everyone who watches a movie is a film buff. Most people aren't. Same for games, and any other art form.

As for your thing on multitasking while watching TV, I dunno, I watched all of Firefly and the first four seasons of House while playing WoW, doing art, and other things and I'd call myself a pretty dang die-hard fan of both of those shows.

Anyways it looks like we either aren't going to agree, or we're missing each other and talking about two different tangents of the same subject, so perhaps we should agree to disagree?

Probably have the same response for you that I gave to Milf. The thing is is that you guys are people who in which video games are pretty important to. So you guys obviously are going to want to believe anything that makes it seem video games are every bit as mainstream as other types of media are.

[Pike]

The thing is is that you guys are people who in which video games are pretty important to. So you guys obviously are going to want to believe anything that makes it seem video games are every bit as mainstream as other types of media are.

But what if I don't want video games to be mainstream? If I was believing what I want to believe then they'd still be all underground and the realm of basement dwellers and nerds, which they sadly no longer are.

[Madame Adequate]

Oh jesus.

Look just click this link.

http://www.esrb.org/about/images/vidGames04.png

[darkchrono]

The thing is is that you guys are people who in which video games are pretty important to. So you guys obviously are going to want to believe anything that makes it seem video games are every bit as mainstream as other types of media are.

But what if I don't want video games to be mainstream? If I was believing what I want to believe then they'd still be all underground and the realm of basement dwellers and nerds, which they sadly no longer are.

And what if you do want them to be mainstream? You then are probably going to believe anything that does make them look more mainstream.

[Pike]

The thing is is that you guys are people who in which video games are pretty important to. So you guys obviously are going to want to believe anything that makes it seem video games are every bit as mainstream as other types of media are.

But what if I don't want video games to be mainstream? If I was believing what I want to believe then they'd still be all underground and the realm of basement dwellers and nerds, which they sadly no longer are.

And what if you do want them to be mainstream? You then are probably going to believe anything that does make them look more mainstream.

But I don't, that's what I just said.

[ShinGundam]

The issue with FF is that Kitase himself believes that older fans should give up on the series and let the younger people enjoy it instead. He pretty much said he plans to keep writing only for the teens/young adults despite the fact that Squenix's biggest game successes are adult oriented titles from Eidos, or remakes/ports/sequels/spin-offs of older FF games. The two biggest games on the PSP from SE is Crisis Core and Dissidia, two titles that are blatantly targeted for a part of the fanbase that is old enough to know what the hell they are. I think if SE actually made a more mature FF, they would find that part of the problem with JRPGs in the modern age is that JRPG developers don't know their audience as well as they think.

Are we even sure that FF fans care about mature themes to begin with?
Most of what FF(and JRPG even anime) fans ask for darker palette(Grey/Brown) and a more overall mature aesthetic, Fans want games to be more fashionable no more no less.

[darkchrono]

The thing is is that you guys are people who in which video games are pretty important to. So you guys obviously are going to want to believe anything that makes it seem video games are every bit as mainstream as other types of media are.

But what if I don't want video games to be mainstream? If I was believing what I want to believe then they'd still be all underground and the realm of basement dwellers and nerds, which they sadly no longer are.

And what if you do want them to be mainstream? You then are probably going to believe anything that does make them look more mainstream.

But I don't, that's what I just said.

Well regardless of rather or not you do (and who knows if you are truly telling the truth or not) for those that do want them to be mainstream they are very likely to believe anything that makes them look mainstream.

[Madame Adequate]

Why exactly are you calling Pike's motivations into question here? Is there anything to be gained from accusing her of lying about this?

e; on that note why are you so determined to prove that gaming is not mainstream? It's the biggest entertainment industry in the world; new blockbusters like Halo and CODs not only sell millions, they get news coverage on the BBC. We've linked you repeatedly to statistics demonstrating their popularity and widespread appeal, and you are the one who is letting their biases color what they believe, because you are the one discounting some pretty uncontroversial statistical facts in favor of the assumption that gaming is for kids.

[darkchrono]

Why exactly are you calling Pike's motivations into question here? Is there anything to be gained from accusing her of lying about this?

e; on that note why are you so determined to prove that gaming is not mainstream? It's the biggest entertainment industry in the world; new blockbusters like Halo and CODs not only sell millions, they get news coverage on the BBC. We've linked you repeatedly to statistics demonstrating their popularity and widespread appeal, and you are the one who is letting their biases color what they believe, because you are the one discounting some pretty uncontroversial statistical facts in favor of the assumption that gaming is for kids.

Interesting that you attempted to change the direction of the conversation after the last post to you. I've said all along that online statistics and surveys are for the most part hogwash (even the ones I linked to). I went ahead and posted some links because you guys kept on inisisting on it. Now don't go and start trying to change the direction of the conversation when you can't think of anything to come back with.

[Madame Adequate]

Yes, it is indeed interesting that in a discussion I would want to stick to proven facts backed up with multiple sources instead of conjecture and attacks

[darkchrono]

Yes, it is indeed interesting that in a discussion I would want to stick to proven facts backed up with multiple sources instead of conjecture and attacks

You havn't proven anything because all you are doing is trying to post statistics. How do they know that the average age of gamers is 35. Do they go around and ask every single person and average out their age? How do they know that 47% of females play video games. Do they go around and ask every living person out there and average it out? How do they know what the largest age range of video game players there are. Do they go around and ask every living person out there and average out there age?

No. What they do is take a small sample pool (which they always disclose how they came up with that pool) and average it out.

The statistics you posted are hogwash. The statistics I posted are hogwash. Basically all it is is your personal opinion and my personal opinion.

[Slothy]

You havn't proven anything because all you are doing is trying to post statistics. How do they know that the average age of gamers is 35. Do they go around and ask every single person and average out their age? How do they know that 47% of females play video games. Do they go around and ask every living person out there and average it out? How do they know what the largest age range of video game players there are. Do they go around and ask every living person out there and average out there age?

No. What they do is take a small sample pool (which they always disclose how they came up with that pool) and average it out.

Do you actually want to get a lesson in statistics? Because I don't think you'd believe anyone even if they did explain it to you in detail.

Look, there are a large number of statistical techniques which have stood up to scientific rigor, been shown to work through experimentation, and can absolutely be used to project results from a small random sample onto the entire population. This isn't even something you can debate because we are talking about something which is heavily used in more fields than you can shake a stick at. Hell, science as we know it would be vastly different if we couldn't rely on statistical sampling when used properly. Hell, a very strong argument could be made that without statistics we wouldn't have science at all. Trying to argue that all statistics, surveys and studies are complete bulltit is complete bulltit. You not only couldn't be more wrong, you can't even defend your position because I guarantee you can't produce any proof that the entire field of statistics is completely useless.

The statistics you posted are hogwash. The statistics I posted are hogwash. Basically all it is is your personal opinion and my personal opinion.

You saying the statistics posted were hogwash doesn't make it true. Sure, if there were problems with the way the sample was chosen, or mistakes in the calculations they made, then they'd be worthless. but here's the thing: getting a sufficiently diverse and random sample of answers to questions like how old are you and how much time do you spend playing games every week is so unbelievably simple and easy that the odds of their being a problem with the sample are negligible, and the likelihood they screwed up finding simple averages is so remote as to be non-existent.

But you know what the biggest thing that works against you here is? Multiple surveys from multiple sources with different sample sizes, different selection methods, and different people running them, all put the average age of gamers in their early to mid thirties. When you have numerous observational studies like these show a definite and consistent trend in the results, you can bet those studies are pretty reliable. If they were all over the map predicting average ages being anywhere from 7 years old to 77, then there'd be a question as to how reliable they are.

So what we have here isn't a case of personal opinion versus personal opinion. We have opinions based on seemingly reliable evidence which has been presented to support the arguments, up against you and your personal opinion based on absolutely nothing but your own biases and feelings. You might as well be guessing about video game demographics based on how gassy you're feeling today, or what you had for lunch.

You want to find fault with the evidence others provided, you do it by digging deeper into where the numbers came from, what their methodology was, and you see if there are any holes in it. Simply stating it's hogwash does not make it so, and is an absolutely utterly worthless argument to make. If you believe that then you should shut off your computer and go live in a cave, because it would mean science, technology, and modern civilization don't exist.

[Madame Adequate]

Oh okay glad to know that no statistics, ever, are worth anything at all, and one of the fundamental ways of deciding not things like "age of an average gamer" but actual important trout like "effective measures to prevent criminal recidivism" is, as you so succinctly put it, "hogwash".

[darkchrono]

You havn't proven anything because all you are doing is trying to post statistics. How do they know that the average age of gamers is 35. Do they go around and ask every single person and average out their age? How do they know that 47% of females play video games. Do they go around and ask every living person out there and average it out? How do they know what the largest age range of video game players there are. Do they go around and ask every living person out there and average out there age?

No. What they do is take a small sample pool (which they always disclose how they came up with that pool) and average it out.

Do you actually want to get a lesson in statistics? Because I don't think you'd believe anyone even if they did explain it to you in detail.

Look, there are a large number of statistical techniques which have stood up to scientific rigor, been shown to work through experimentation, and can absolutely be used to project results from a small random sample onto the entire population. This isn't even something you can debate because we are talking about something which is heavily used in more fields than you can shake a stick at. Hell, science as we know it would be vastly different if we couldn't rely on statistical sampling when used properly. Hell, a very strong argument could be made that without statistics we wouldn't have science at all. Trying to argue that all statistics, surveys and studies are complete bulltit is complete bulltit. You not only couldn't be more wrong, you can't even defend your position because I guarantee you can't produce any proof that the entire field of statistics is completely useless.

The statistics you posted are hogwash. The statistics I posted are hogwash. Basically all it is is your personal opinion and my personal opinion.

You saying the statistics posted were hogwash doesn't make it true. Sure, if there were problems with the way the sample was chosen, or mistakes in the calculations they made, then they'd be worthless. but here's the thing: getting a sufficiently diverse and random sample of answers to questions like how old are you and how much time do you spend playing games every week is so unbelievably simple and easy that the odds of their being a problem with the sample are negligible, and the likelihood they screwed up finding simple averages is so remote as to be non-existent.

But you know what the biggest thing that works against you here is? Multiple surveys from multiple sources with different sample sizes, different selection methods, and different people running them, all put the average age of gamers in their early to mid thirties. When you have numerous observational studies like these show a definite and consistent trend in the results, you can bet those studies are pretty reliable. If they were all over the map predicting average ages being anywhere from 7 years old to 77, then there'd be a question as to how reliable they are.

So what we have here isn't a case of personal opinion versus personal opinion. We have opinions based on seemingly reliable evidence which has been presented to support the arguments, up against you and your personal opinion based on absolutely nothing but your own biases and feelings. You might as well be guessing about video game demographics based on how gassy you're feeling today, or what you had for lunch.

You want to find fault with the evidence others provided, you do it by digging deeper into where the numbers came from, what their methodology was, and you see if there are any holes in it. Simply stating it's hogwash does not make it so, and is an absolutely utterly worthless argument to make. If you believe that then you should shut off your computer and go live in a cave, because it would mean science, technology, and modern civilization don't exist.

I believe that this article that Pike posted in the beginning of this thread states that the average age is 18. That's quite a bit of difference from the mid 30's.

Video Game Demographics

Maybe you guys need to go back and look at the things you have posted and see how well they all go together again.

Also. Prove that these surveys were taken from reliable pools. I don't think a single one of the articles you posted said how they got their pools. Because again everyone knows that online surveys can easily be suayed to get the results you want to get.