Midnight Premiere of the Dark Knight Rises (UNMARKED SPOILERS AHEAD)

[NorthernChaosGod]

I finally saw it. It was soooooo good.

[The Captain]

So... I will now admit the truth: I didn't like this movie very much.

Sure, there were parts that were very enjoyable. I very much liked the characters and especially enjoyed Bane's voice being exactly the opposite of what I expected.

HOWEVER, there were some plot holes that completely and utterly took me out of the movie, to the point that I could no longer suspend my disbelief.

Chief among them:

1. How exactly did Bruce get back to Gotham after escaping the Pit? Isn't he bankrupt? Did he walk to the nearest airport and sneak aboard a plane? And wouldn't someone kind of notice that he'd escaped? And isn't Gotham under a severe siege? So, he just escapes and magically is back in Gotham seemingly overnight?

2. Why did they wait to detonate the bomb? This was bugging me for the entire second half of the movie. It really always bugs me when an action movie introduces a bomb because you know that it will come down to someone either defusing it or detonating it with literally seconds to spare. And somehow, Bane and company decide they will just wait months before detonating it? Why? Wasn't their goal to destroy Gotham?



Now, don't get me wrong. I get that it's a superhero movie and I'm supposed to go along for the ride, which I normally am willing to do. However, these moments seemed so illogical to me that I couldn't stop thinking about them and thus was taken out of the movie completely. I appreciate that Nolan was going for more realism with these superhero movies and in the bigger picture, he was a wild success. I really enjoyed both Batman Begins and The Dark Knight. In a way, this was sort of a no win movie since The Dark Knight had a now timeless performance from Batman's most iconic nemesis and on top of that, that film felt so epic that raising the stakes again seemed impossible. But to me, this movie was a let-down because I wasn't able to get past the moments I mentioned.

So, bring on your explanations of my above spoilers and maybe you can help me make sense of this.

Take care all.

[krissy]

So... I will now admit the truth: I didn't like this movie very much.

Sure, there were parts that were very enjoyable. I very much liked the characters and especially enjoyed Bane's voice being exactly the opposite of what I expected.

HOWEVER, there were some plot holes that completely and utterly took me out of the movie, to the point that I could no longer suspend my disbelief.

Chief among them:

1. How exactly did Bruce get back to Gotham after escaping the Pit? Isn't he bankrupt? Did he walk to the nearest airport and sneak aboard a plane? And wouldn't someone kind of notice that he'd escaped? And isn't Gotham under a severe siege? So, he just escapes and magically is back in Gotham seemingly overnight?

2. Why did they wait to detonate the bomb? This was bugging me for the entire second half of the movie. It really always bugs me when an action movie introduces a bomb because you know that it will come down to someone either defusing it or detonating it with literally seconds to spare. And somehow, Bane and company decide they will just wait months before detonating it? Why? Wasn't their goal to destroy Gotham?



Now, don't get me wrong. I get that it's a superhero movie and I'm supposed to go along for the ride, which I normally am willing to do. However, these moments seemed so illogical to me that I couldn't stop thinking about them and thus was taken out of the movie completely. I appreciate that Nolan was going for more realism with these superhero movies and in the bigger picture, he was a wild success. I really enjoyed both Batman Begins and The Dark Knight. In a way, this was sort of a no win movie since The Dark Knight had a now timeless performance from Batman's most iconic nemesis and on top of that, that film felt so epic that raising the stakes again seemed impossible. But to me, this movie was a let-down because I wasn't able to get past the moments I mentioned.

So, bring on your explanations of my above spoilers and maybe you can help me make sense of this.

Take care all.

1) haha it's batman. there are versions of the story where he gives up all his money before leaving gotham the first time and by the time he gets back he is rich again. also ninja.

2) giving gotham time to destroy itself, and more importantly, to allow bruce to suffer as he watches his city take itself apart before being utterly destroyed. there's an aspect of vengeance here too, that wasn't present in batman begins and the original league of shadows.

edit: additionally for number 2, it must have been delicious to know that gotham's demise was originally a wayne corporation project. but i suppose this was also the intended case in batman begins.

[Wolf Kanno]

Yeah, it's basically revenge but also I would argue that it falls into the League of Shadows ideal of resetting the balance by making a part of humanity serve as an example to the rest. Batman suffers for watching his own city fall apart but also to horrify the world by watching it also fall apart into chaos and violence and rattle the cages of normal society.

As for Batman's 24 hour trip, yes it's a plot hole created to add tension, but even if he is broke, he's still smurfing Bruce Wayne, I bet that local warlord who owns the pit owed him a favor.

[blackmage_nuke]

I was wondering about how he was going to get back too but the scene before he gets back they say something about there being 2 weeks left before the bomb goes off and when he gets back theres only 24 hours left or something (massive paraphrasing and ad libbing there) which means there was a large timeskip between when he got out of the hole and when he got back to Gotham, and I think 2 weeks is a reasonable timeframe for him to steal some money, get a plane and parachute into gotham or whatever the hell batman does.

Also as said they wanted Gotham to destroy itself before the bomb finished them off and force Bruce to watch it all

What I dont get is why everyone in the prison hole was hating on Bane

[Slothy]

Everyone else kind of covered it, but yeah, there was a longer period of time between when he escaped and when he got to Gotham than it seems if you aren't paying attention. Plus, he's Batman. Finding a way to get himself back into Gotham probably isn't that hard for him. Hell, he may even have had plans in place for getting in and out of the city undetected if he ever needed to. As for someone noticing he escaped, there aren't any guards there. You throw people in the hole and they never get out. Maybe they drop them food and water now and again, but that'd be the extent of it. Not to mention Bane had basically dislocated a disc in his spine. He probably didn't figure he was going anywhere after that.

And I've seen other people confused with why they don't detonate the bomb right away but I'm not sure how the movie could have been clearer in that they wanted Bruce to suffer from watching his city fall before it was finally destroyed. Hell, Bane pretty much outright says that's his goal when he leaves Bruce in the prison.

[fire_of_avalon]

I thought the movie was thoroughly entertaining and a really great way to end the trilogy. Surprisingly, I thought Anne Hathaway did a good job with what she was given. I also liked Bane with his crazy cartoon voice and JGL's Robin.

But I don't think the movie was balls out amazing like a lot of people are hyping it up to be.

So much just didn't make any sense. I thought Marion Cotteiard was wasted in her role, and her death scene was just the silliest. I could not get over how bad that was. What gives?

I also really really hate it when female villians in movies sleep with the guy that they're intending to kill. Yeah, I hate you but I'm totally going to let you smurf me anyway. Ugh.

I thought the villains motivations were kinda far-flung. Joker was obviously insane, was Bane insane too? Throughout the movie it made it seem like there was some deeply rooted hatred of Gotham's police/infrastructure/culture in his motivations but at the end we find out he's mostly just doing this cause he loves the girl? Or am I getting that wrong? Is he just crazy and wants anarchy? I wish they had made that more clear.

I know it was a bit cheesy but I LOVED that Batman got a happy ending. Most of the film was so dark, it made me heart go awwww to see him all sunshine and happy.

Part of Bane's motivation was his love for Thalia, but moreover they both sincerely believed in the mission of the League of Shadows and in exacting vengeance for Ras al-Ghul's death.

I also loved that Batman got a happy ending, and that Alfred (YOU PEOPLE. HIS GODDAMN NAME IS ALFRED) got closure knowing that he had successfully raised Bruce and that Bruce would, finally, be content in life. Alfred is so, so important to Bruce's identity. He's his guidance, his moral compass. He's his history.

So... I will now admit the truth: I didn't like this movie very much.

Sure, there were parts that were very enjoyable. I very much liked the characters and especially enjoyed Bane's voice being exactly the opposite of what I expected.

HOWEVER, there were some plot holes that completely and utterly took me out of the movie, to the point that I could no longer suspend my disbelief.

Chief among them:

1. How exactly did Bruce get back to Gotham after escaping the Pit? Isn't he bankrupt? Did he walk to the nearest airport and sneak aboard a plane? And wouldn't someone kind of notice that he'd escaped? And isn't Gotham under a severe siege? So, he just escapes and magically is back in Gotham seemingly overnight?

2. Why did they wait to detonate the bomb? This was bugging me for the entire second half of the movie. It really always bugs me when an action movie introduces a bomb because you know that it will come down to someone either defusing it or detonating it with literally seconds to spare. And somehow, Bane and company decide they will just wait months before detonating it? Why? Wasn't their goal to destroy Gotham?


Now, don't get me wrong. I get that it's a superhero movie and I'm supposed to go along for the ride, which I normally am willing to do. However, these moments seemed so illogical to me that I couldn't stop thinking about them and thus was taken out of the movie completely. I appreciate that Nolan was going for more realism with these superhero movies and in the bigger picture, he was a wild success. I really enjoyed both Batman Begins and The Dark Knight. In a way, this was sort of a no win movie since The Dark Knight had a now timeless performance from Batman's most iconic nemesis and on top of that, that film felt so epic that raising the stakes again seemed impossible. But to me, this movie was a let-down because I wasn't able to get past the moments I mentioned.

So, bring on your explanations of my above spoilers and maybe you can help me make sense of this.

Take care all.

1) It's best to kind of refer back to Bruce's previous life. He eschewed all of his possessions as a young man, fled into the unknown and became a master criminal and thief. After he escapes from certain death, he becomes the greatest ninja in a gang of the greatest ninjas. He's good with limited resources and he had weeks to get back to Gotham.

2) The League of Shadows wanted Gotham to be a symbol to the rest of the world that "crimes" will be punished, no matter how long ago they occurred. What better way than to hold the city in spellbound terror for months on end. What crueler punishment exists than long, drawn out, imprisonment with the knowledge that you are bound for death but also with an inexorable hope that may, just maybe, you won't. It makes my stomach twist just thinking of it.

I was wondering about how he was going to get back too but the scene before he gets back they say something about there being 2 weeks left before the bomb goes off and when he gets back theres only 24 hours left or something (massive paraphrasing and ad libbing there) which means there was a large timeskip between when he got out of the hole and when he got back to Gotham, and I think 2 weeks is a reasonable timeframe for him to steal some money, get a plane and parachute into gotham or whatever the hell batman does.

Also as said they wanted Gotham to destroy itself before the bomb finished them off and force Bruce to watch it all

What I dont get is why everyone in the prison hole was hating on Bane

A bunch of dudes in prison forever, a female who will someday grow into a woman. I wonder.

I saw this on my birthday and I loved every minute of it. I was really nervous about JGL's character, not because JGL can't do whatever the smurf he wants, but because the addition of another goodguy was concerning. I also felt it was unrealistic that he figured Bruce out from one meeting.

But damn that man is pretty.

I think Christian Bale was excellent, as always. He perfectly marries the obscure and darkly funny Batman of Michael Keaton with the gritty and hyper-realistic detective storylines I expect from Batman. He's dark. He's wounded. He's vengeance for all of those who can't exact vengeance. For me, Bale can do no wrong with this role.

For the last week I've been on a Gary Oldman kick because of his performance of Gordon. I don't keep up with the comics, but I've never seen a Gordon portrayed as such a fatalistic, tortured guardian of a city who will never appreciate him for what he is or what he's done. All of the previous Gordons are by-the-book, two dimensional old cop stock characters, but Oldman brings him to life. He's a person who partners with the Batman, not a patsy who relies on him. Nolan/Oldman's Jim Gordon has so much more in common with Bruce Wayne than most people understand. He sacrificed family, love, and personal honor in order to make Gotham a better place. I was a little disappointed that this film didn't keep him in focus as the last one did. The Dark Knight will remain my favorite of the series, and one of my favorite films of all time, in part due to Heath Ledger's performance as The Joker and due to Gary Oldman as James Gordon.

Tom Hardy was astounding. Absolutely astounding. So much of his performance relied exclusively on his ability to convey emotion through his body and his eyes. I was impressed.

Anne Hathaway was great as Selina Kyle, even though I always loved Catwoman as a vigilante activist from the animated series, I liked that she was a hard girl who just wanted a second chance to be something else. Who hasn't wondered and wished what they could be if their life had taken a different path? I think her presence in the film is so necessary. If it hadn't been for Selina Kyle, Bruce would've died as a savior instead of getting to find contentment.

And Michael Caine was, as always, able to deliver a performance with such emotion that I just wanted to cry and cry and cry.

Awesome, awesome, awesome movie.

PS: IT REALLY DID FOLLOW THE PATTERN OF A MAGIC TRICK IN THE PRESTIGE. I was like "lol that's a good theory" but then it totally happened.

[blackmage_nuke]

A bunch of dudes in prison forever, a female who will someday grow into a woman. I wonder.

I assumed they somehow hid the gender of the child from everyone but now that I try to think about it I cant remember if they said that or not

[The Captain]

Thanks for your responses, though my counterargument to that would be that the POINT of Christopher Nolan's Batman was that everything would be grounded more in reality then just the "Well, he's Batman, he can do anything!".

If the League of Shadows is such a big over-reaching group, one capable of laying siege to an entire city, one capable of hijacking a plane in 5 minutes, then I would believe they'd have left some guards to you know, watch their one true nemesis and make sure he doesn't escape. North Korea and South Korea employ guards that just WATCH each other all day long on their borders for crying out load.

As for the bomb, ok, they wanted Bruce to suffer BUT, if there was a two week or so gap between his escape and return to Gotham, wouldn't they have probably heard he escaped and if so, why didn't they just detonate the bomb then?

If I wanted to make someone suffer by withholding something but then they escaped, why would I then continue to withhold? I would just do the thing at that point, since either A) The person is dead or vanished and won't see it, or B) They are on the way to stop me, so get while the gettings good.


To me, that is the difference between The Joker in The Dark Knight and these villains. The Joker's goal was mayhem and panic which he accomplished. Plus, he didn't just leave everything up to the last minute. He set things in motion and essentially used himself as the distraction. Sure, Batman "Won" in that movie too, but at a price and not on his own terms. That is a powerful villain that can do that.

Take care all.

[blackmage_nuke]

though my counterargument to that would be that the POINT of Christopher Nolan's Batman was that everything would be grounded more in reality then just the "Well, he's Batman, he can do anything!".

I think it was more that there was any number of ways he couldve gotten back and in the end knowing how he returned to Gotham wasnt important to the story, the same way we dont always see them eating breakfast.

As for the bomb, ok, they wanted Bruce to suffer BUT, if there was a two week or so gap between his escape and return to Gotham, wouldn't they have probably heard he escaped and if so, why didn't they just detonate the bomb then?

Maybe it's what Bane said about hope. he wanted to leave that little glimer there to make it all the more painful when they destroyed him. Infact it's possible Talia expected Bruce to escape, if I recall she was not really surprised, only Bane was surprised as he himself was unable to escape the hole. That or it's just plain hubris.

[Wolf Kanno]

^ Mostly this, and technically there were guys watching over Bruce in the prison but they were other inmates, and he kind of won them over with his determination to leave. Also once again, I felt they wanted Bruce to suffer, so even if Talia knew he was coming, she would have not set off the bomb, just so she could have her wonderful moment where she stabs him, explains her true identity, and watch Batman's horror when he realizes the person he finally opened up to and handed over his company and project to was counting on all of this to happen so she could get her hands on a Bomb he made. Of anything, she's devilishly calculating here. You need to focus on the idea the villains motive is revenge, not idealism. Blowing up Gotham before Batman returned would not be as satisfying as making him think he could stop it and then learning the hard-way they underestimated him.

As for the other issue of how he got to Gotham, honestly, I feel you are making too much of a big deal about something most people probably don't care about. It still took him nearly two weeks to travel to wherever he was and sneak into Gotham so it wasn't like he just summoned his flying Bat ship and got there (though he could since he did fix the auto-pilot) and we are talking about a paranoid vigilante whose part time alias gives him way too much free time. He could have thought of a way to get in and out of Gotham secretly, especially since I don't think Bane's goons were terribly worried about one or two guys they would eventually notice and gun down like the CIA agents who went AWOL on their delivery. One guy who has the same training as the bad guys for sneaking around, and this guy happened to be good enough to win against the founder of the order twice? The man has more than enough in-movie credentials to let it slide that we didn't get to see every intimate detail. The film was nearly 3 hours long, I don't think it needed an extra 10 minutes to watch Bruce travel home and sneak in, just so we can make sure everything is absolutely grounded in reality. You need to chillax and just enjoy the ride bro.

[The Captain]

The League of Shadows ultimate goal was to make an example of Gotham, correct? Isn't that stated in Batman Begins? Beyond making an example of one man, they wanted Gotham to be an example, like Rome. So, really, it goes against their inherent and stated motives to now swing to revenge against Batman versus their over-reaching goal. At least from Bane's perspective. Talia is out for revenge partially, but that's not her biggest goal. Her goal is to finish the job her father set out. Getting Batman is the cherry on top, but why would you just let the entire sundae melt if you can't have the cherry?

I also refuse to believe that Bruce Wayne could just magic his way back in to Gotham. He is over-coming a broken back, with no identification and what happened to that horrible limp from early in the movie? Did they just give him back the brace he created so he could walk out of the desert? That is a plothole too big to just "enjoy the ride" with. It was so unbelievable to me that I couldn't enjoy the movie.

Does he have the training to do it? Yes, but the film should have shown this. At least show how he got out of the desert. Yes, with a film, you don't need to show every detail of life, but a quick little shot or montage of him maybe hijacking a plane of his own or sneaking aboard something would have sufficed. Once he escapes the Pit, it's obvious he is going to make it back to Gotham, but after establishing how hellish and out of the way this pit is, to just say 'and then he returned', seems cheap, both for the set-up and for the degree of difficulty that Bruce actually had to overcome.

Almost every movie, no matter how well written, will have plotholes and some of my favorite ones certainly do, but the glaring ones in this kept me from enjoying it.

To give an example:

Something that always bugged me in The Dark Knight: How did the Joker get away after he crashed Harvey Dent's party? Remember, he tosses Rachel out the window and Batman dives after to save her. But, if my logic is correct, isn't the Joker still in the penthouse? How did he and his men get away? In plain sight of all the guests? Watching it again, this really bugged me too.

Take care all.

[NeoCracker]

In response to the Joker getting away, he just walked out.

WHo the hell is going to try to stop him?

And With Batman crashing pretty hard, he probably wasn't in good enough shape to give chase.

[fire_of_avalon]

The League of Shadows ultimate goal was to make an example of Gotham, correct? Isn't that stated in Batman Begins? Beyond making an example of one man, they wanted Gotham to be an example, like Rome. So, really, it goes against their inherent and stated motives to now swing to revenge against Batman versus their over-reaching goal. At least from Bane's perspective. Talia is out for revenge partially, but that's not her biggest goal. Her goal is to finish the job her father set out. Getting Batman is the cherry on top, but why would you just let the entire sundae melt if you can't have the cherry?

To savor the vengeance of the death of her father, that she didn't get to love or even know until she was much older? I definitely think she would. Besides, if you make an example of Gotham but Gotham's symbol of hope survives then the world is not taught it's lesson, which is the entire point of destroying Gotham. To make an example to the rest of the world.

Does he have the training to do it? Yes, but the film should have shown this. At least show how he got out of the desert. Yes, with a film, you don't need to show every detail of life, but a quick little shot or montage of him maybe hijacking a plane of his own or sneaking aboard something would have sufficed. Once he escapes the Pit, it's obvious he is going to make it back to Gotham, but after establishing how hellish and out of the way this pit is, to just say 'and then he returned', seems cheap, both for the set-up and for the degree of difficulty that Bruce actually had to overcome.

While I agree about the leg thing, my guess is there might be something we'll see in deleted scenes during a special edition release.

Almost every movie, no matter how well written, will have plotholes and some of my favorite ones certainly do, but the glaring ones in this kept me from enjoying it.

To give an example:

Something that always bugged me in The Dark Knight: How did the Joker get away after he crashed Harvey Dent's party? Remember, he tosses Rachel out the window and Batman dives after to save her. But, if my logic is correct, isn't the Joker still in the penthouse? How did he and his men get away? In plain sight of all the guests? Watching it again, this really bugged me too.

Take care all.

Those people weren't going to do anything to stop him. A bigger plothole, in my mind, is how Gordon was kept a secret until he showed back up to take-in the Joker. Obviously MCU knew he was still alive, but there were at least two dirty cops there. It doesn't make sense they wouldn't inform on him. That one bugged me a little, but the payoff is Jim Gordon in full SWAT gear with a shotgun at the Joker's throat. Sometimes suspending disbelief gets you cool prizes.

[Wolf Kanno]

The League of Shadows ultimate goal was to make an example of Gotham, correct? Isn't that stated in Batman Begins? Beyond making an example of one man, they wanted Gotham to be an example, like Rome. So, really, it goes against their inherent and stated motives to now swing to revenge against Batman versus their over-reaching goal. At least from Bane's perspective. Talia is out for revenge partially, but that's not her biggest goal. Her goal is to finish the job her father set out. Getting Batman is the cherry on top, but why would you just let the entire sundae melt if you can't have the cherry?

Cause even Ras' Al Gul did the same thing when he fabricated Gotham's destruction using Wayne Corp technology to do it, just so he could get revenge as well as serve his more idealistic goal. Talia's out for blood and Bane is her most loyal servant and hell hath no fury like a woman scorned, so I can see how her revenge ultimately trumped the Leagues goals. Her old man did the exact same thing since he probably could have destroyed Gotham a myriad of ways but chose the most elaborate and time consuming method just so he could get back at Batman.

I also refuse to believe that Bruce Wayne could just magic his way back in to Gotham. He is over-coming a broken back, with no identification and what happened to that horrible limp from early in the movie? Did they just give him back the brace he created so he could walk out of the desert? That is a plothole too big to just "enjoy the ride" with. It was so unbelievable to me that I couldn't enjoy the movie.


Does he have the training to do it? Yes, but the film should have shown this. At least show how he got out of the desert. Yes, with a film, you don't need to show every detail of life, but a quick little shot or montage of him maybe hijacking a plane of his own or sneaking aboard something would have sufficed. Once he escapes the Pit, it's obvious he is going to make it back to Gotham, but after establishing how hellish and out of the way this pit is, to just say 'and then he returned', seems cheap, both for the set-up and for the degree of difficulty that Bruce actually had to overcome.

Well actually, if memory serves me correctly. if you pay attention to the background, you'll notice the Pit is located not far from what I'm guessing is the Warlord's palace, so I don't think he had to walk terribly far to get back in touch with civilkization, as for the leg brace, remember that Bane said he wanted to give Wayne the feeling of hope so he could crush him? So I don't think it's far fetched that they would let him keep it. As for the back, he is in decent shape, and he was trapped there for months, not a few weeks, he had time to recover from a back injury that didn't flat out paralyze him. Besides the whole point of the scene is also just showing the power of the human spirit, so chances are he's still in very bad shape all the way up to the end of the movie but kept going like nothing was wrong on sheer willpower alone.

Also, Bruce spent 7 years wandering the world without his fortune in Batman Begins. I think he knows how to get some where without relying on his fortune, or Bat-tech. I feel with that knowledge from the first film, it's pretty trivial to think of this as a plothole and more of just the writer hoping the audience could piece it together themselves.

Almost every movie, no matter how well written, will have plotholes and some of my favorite ones certainly do, but the glaring ones in this kept me from enjoying it.

To give an example:

Something that always bugged me in The Dark Knight: How did the Joker get away after he crashed Harvey Dent's party? Remember, he tosses Rachel out the window and Batman dives after to save her. But, if my logic is correct, isn't the Joker still in the penthouse? How did he and his men get away? In plain sight of all the guests? Watching it again, this really bugged me too.

Take care all.

A bunch of rich socialites are not really going to stop a group of armed thugs who were good enough to get past their security in the first place. Yeah, they just walked out.