If you're not picking a single combat skill as a dominant skill, then it's your own fault. Just because the mechanic is broken, it doesn't mean that players making bad decisions don't deserve some of the blame for their having a rough time. What skills are you picking such that you find yourself having to reduce the difficulty?
On a different note, Oblivion has the best soundtrack out of the three most recent installments, I think.
Yeah if anything I've had to put up the difficulty in Oblivion O_o I can usually get to the mid 20's without really trying at all. I just run around and whack everyone with my sword and they die.
Fallout 3 is best game ever.
This post brought to you by the power of boobs. Dear lord them boobs. Amen
Fallout 3 is fun but, when you'e level 15 have everything you want and like 30,000 caps. It's not so fun anymore. I think of any of the games the leveling is broken in FO3. by the time I'm level 20 I can kill anything in seconds have more money/ammo/stimpacks then I will EVER use. maybe it's because I scrounge through every inch of every room looking for anything I can sell or use. But, I just dominate everything in this game at sucha n early stage it gets boring quick. At least in Oblivion and Skyrim it takes me a little while to get that strong. trout Skyrim I wasn't that strong until I was a level 45 magic user. Using melee weapons in Skyrim I need to level a bit more to be a beast like you can with magic.Originally Posted by Hypoallergenic Cactuar
You're missing the point. Even if you pick a combat skill to level faster, if you level as soon as you're able to all the time you are probably going to get into trouble. Many players do on their first time playing, because you will be ready to level up long before you have decent modifiers for your attributes.
So I'm going to say it again, if a developer makes a stupid system with backwards incentives which can work against you if you do the obvious thing then it's their fault if the player ends up in trouble because they leveled up sub-optimally. And this is really what it comes down to. If you make a system that doesn't work the way any sane person would expect yet looks like it does work that way, any problems that fall out of that are on the game designer for doing a terrible job. There really is no sane argument you can make to push the blame for a bad system that resulting in stupidly bad results on the player.
You act as though you have to basically try and do poorly to end up severely underpowered in Oblivion, despite the fact that it happened to people like myself on our first playthroughs even though this certainly wasn't the first RPG we'd ever played. I've got plenty of experience with leveling systems from literal decades of playing games. I've seen lots of bad leveling systems, boring leveling systems, broken leveling systems, and even leveling systems which were kind of pointless. Oblivion was the first time I encountered a leveling system which did the exact opposite of what a leveling system should do unless you spend the time reading up on the intricacies of how it works. Oblivion literally punishes new players for doing the obvious thing.
You're entire rebuttal has basically been nothing but "well, it didn't happen to me so it's not a real problem. The people who had trouble just need to learn how to not make stupid decisions." This isn't a valid argument.
Edit: I think the worst thing about leveling in Oblivion though is that with some simple tweaking it could have been better. Not great mind you, but better. Just remove leveling to raise attributes and tie attribute raises to skill leveling. You can even have enemies gain levels with you still. Just tie their levels to the levels of your main combat skills so there's no way they can outpace your ability to kill them and get progressively harder unless you specifically make tougher enemies appear at higher levels. It wouldn't be perfect, but it would be pretty much the same leveling system minus the possibility of new players who lack the insider knowledge to realize they're screwing themselves actually screwing themselves.
Last edited by Slothy; 08-13-2012 at 06:04 PM.
streme Wheelie
Recognized Member
Living in Oblivion is one of the best things to have come out of Oblivion.
Have you read his Skyrim one? It was also brilliant, though I mourn the death of Living in Oblivion.
Now that Dark Souls has shown me the path I will most likely never return to an Elder Scrolls game again.
Rant about Oblivion, serious Dark Souls spoilers explaining it's greatness, do not read if you're planning to get Dark Souls eventually or playing it right now
It's all about getting to a player's heart really. In Oblivion, every creature and the majority of the NPC's you meet are mindless, generic beings. Repeating lines to other NPC's, the hellish monsters felt really uninspired and out of place and whacking your sword around usually does the trick anyway. Towns, cities, NPC's and creatures weren't placed in the game because they added value and depth to the player experience, but because Bethesda wanted to create the biggest world they could. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it does make for a pretty bland experience.
This is the Dark Souls part, warning for serious spoilers again:
Dark Souls is the exact opposite: everything in there is placed carefully, and with reason. Everything that wouldn't add to the player experience is scrapped. The world is compact, yet every part of it will be of value to you. You will be amazed by the ingenius shortcuts you'll find, and you will be relieved every time you explored an area and make it back alive. Enemies don't cheat by levelling up with you. You will learn how to defeat them, and you will have a hard time at first. But since they don't level up with you, by endgame you feel like you've mastered the world. Dark Souls is one of the few games that's pure in it's characters too. They're really, really few in numbers, but that's exactly why every NPC you meet is a relief, an instant friend. Eventually though, when you adventure long enough all characters will go hollow (mad), just like the opening sequence predicts. They will attack you, and you will fight the very NPC friends you've made. You will kill them. That alone brought up more emotion than I've ever felt in a game. Serious props to FromSoftware to make such a daring decision.
So long story short:
Comparing Oblivion to Dark Souls is like comparing a big box that's full of generic, carelessly thrown in items to a small, compact box full of perfectly fitting pieces of art. Excuse me for the mediocre metafore.
Dark Souls and Dragon's Dogma have pretty much ruined Western RPGs in terms of combat.
Of those I have played...
Morrowind - Awesome, rewarding, interesting.
Oblivion - Annoying, repetitive, pretty but then you realise that the prettiness is also repetitive, more so than FFXIV and that's saying something.
Oblivion with mods - Rewarding, repetitive, beautiful but then you realise that... oh, you know.
Skyrim - Awesome, rewarding, beautiful.
Skyrim with mods - Fun!
Bow before the mighty Javoo!
Do I like playing them? For about thirty hours.
Have I beaten any? No.
Does anyone beat them? I know no one.
I've beat Skyrim.Does anyone beat them? I know no one.
I just don't understand this. what skills do you use? Why are you not leveling your combat skills anyways!? I've played this game I don't know.. a dozen or more times and I have NEVER had ANY problem with leveling or ANYTHING being too difficult that I couldn't level up once or twice and complete it.You're missing the point. Even if you pick a combat skill to level faster, if you level as soon as you're able to all the time you are probably going to get into trouble. Many players do on their first time playing, because you will be ready to level up long before you have decent modifiers for your attributes.
So I'm going to say it again, if a developer makes a stupid system with backwards incentives which can work against you if you do the obvious thing then it's their fault if the player ends up in trouble because they leveled up sub-optimally. And this is really what it comes down to. If you make a system that doesn't work the way any sane person would expect yet looks like it does work that way, any problems that fall out of that are on the game designer for doing a terrible job. There really is no sane argument you can make to push the blame for a bad system that resulting in stupidly bad results on the player.
You act as though you have to basically try and do poorly to end up severely underpowered in Oblivion, despite the fact that it happened to people like myself on our first playthroughs even though this certainly wasn't the first RPG we'd ever played. I've got plenty of experience with leveling systems from literal decades of playing games. I've seen lots of bad leveling systems, boring leveling systems, broken leveling systems, and even leveling systems which were kind of pointless. Oblivion was the first time I encountered a leveling system which did the exact opposite of what a leveling system should do unless you spend the time reading up on the intricacies of how it works. Oblivion literally punishes new players for doing the obvious thing.
You're entire rebuttal has basically been nothing but "well, it didn't happen to me so it's not a real problem. The people who had trouble just need to learn how to not make stupid decisions." This isn't a valid argument.
Edit: I think the worst thing about leveling in Oblivion though is that with some simple tweaking it could have been better. Not great mind you, but better. Just remove leveling to raise attributes and tie attribute raises to skill leveling. You can even have enemies gain levels with you still. Just tie their levels to the levels of your main combat skills so there's no way they can outpace your ability to kill them and get progressively harder unless you specifically make tougher enemies appear at higher levels. It wouldn't be perfect, but it would be pretty much the same leveling system minus the possibility of new players who lack the insider knowledge to realize they're screwing themselves actually screwing themselves.
I beat Morrowind a couple of times, I smurfing loved that game. I really like Skyrim too, but I haven't gotten close to finishing it yet.
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