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Thread: How would you fix FFVI?

  1. #1
    Slothstronaut Slothy's Avatar
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    Default How would you fix FFVI?

    Look, we all know that FFVI is the best damn game in the series. This is absolute, undeniable truth and Del Murder will totally back me up on this. But perhaps what's most amazing about it is that it's the best in the series despite the battle system being an absolutely broken pile of trout.

    And I doubt there's anyone who would disagree with me there, even amongst the most hardcore FFVI fans. The battle system is terrible.

    "Oh hey, I got attacked by some monsters. I guess I'll spam my infinitely usable, high damage attacks that hit every enemy on the screen every single time and end the fight inside of three turns tops. Oh, looks like I need to heal. I'll just use this Cure spell, then siphon back all of the MP I used from monsters that never use magic but seem to have MP anyway. Hey, what's this Ultima spell do?"

    Seriously, the game is far too easy. If it weren't for the awesome characters, great world and story, and the music and lovely art style that all came together to be an amazing experience, this wouldn't be something I'd ever recommend playing.

    So how would you guys fix it? You can feel free to toss out ideas for singular problems, or try and tackle the entire battle system, but I want to know what you would do to inject some challenge and player involvement worthy of the best title in the series here. I'll hold off on my own ideas since I'm short on time and I'd rather hear what everyone else thinks since everyone already knows I have an opinion about everything and you all stopped caring years ago.

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    It's definitely too easy to farm Economizers, so either the drop rate should be modified or the item should be removed altogether.

    Most of the time, I forgot I could use the Esper as a summon instead of just learning magic spells from them. Something should be done to bring the Espers to the foreground.

    In some cases, the character skills are horribly broken, mostly Sabin's Blitzes and Edgar's Tools. By contrast, I never used Celes' ability, nor did I bother with Cyan's SwdTech. That could be balanced better.

    Those are the ones that jump out at me. It's been almost 10 years since I played FF6 so I'm sure I could find more if I played it more recently.

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    Feel the Bern Del Murder's Avatar
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    Replace it with Tactics' battle system. Thread over.

    For a serious answer, you would obviously need to scale down the 'free' commands such as Blitz and Tools. They should not be more powerful than everything else in the game. Perhaps have a time delay for using Blitz (maybe skip a turn to power up) and have some kind of limitation on Tools (ammo or have them break perhaps). For magic, Ultima is a broken spell and needs to be nerfed. The power of spells should be about the same as FFVII. Spells weren't overpowered in that game (Summons and E.Skills were but that's another story). Conversely, summons should be more powerful.

    Vanish should just be eliminated entirely. Pump up the boss difficulty. Increase MP use for most spells. Make it so that some of the more powerful relics (Offering, Economizer, Gem Box) should need two slots to activate. Those things would go a long way I think!

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    pirate heartbreaker The Man's Avatar
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    I would replace it with FFV's battle system, rather than Tactics'. The fact that all characters (except Umaro and Gogo) can learn all spells without much difficulty is a large part of the reason the game is so easy. The Job system in FFV required a lot of work to master, and it wasn't really practical to have all characters master all jobs until at least the second world, if not the Void. It doesn't hurt that FFV was set up to be a much more challenging game, either.

    Alternately, I would leave the current system but make it so most characters can master much less magic, depending on their starting job. Having all characters able to learn all spells removes a large part of the difficulty from the later part of the game. There is essentially no reason to use most characters' special abilities once they learn enough magic. The special abilities are just kind of... there.

    A third option would be to use the job system, but also leave in the system where every character has a unique ability that no one else can learn.

    Beyond that, I wouldn't go so far as to make Gem Box/Economizer/Offering require two relic slots, but I would probably nerf the Gem Box/Economizer and Offering/Genji Glove combos. Seriously, having the potential for five spells a turn cast for 5MP or eight attacks is just ridiculous.

    Osmose needs to at least fail sometimes or something. There is no point ever conserving MP in the game as it exists because you can always recover it with minimal effort.

    Runic is actually pretty cool, but as Alpha2099 said, the usefulness of the abilities is widely varied. I would balance the level of effectiveness between things like SwdTech (useless) and Blitz/Tools (way too powerful). There is also a glitch that makes it possible to spam Joker Doom in tool-assisted speedruns, but I might leave that in for the lulz, since most people won't be playing frame-by-frame.

    I think they fixed Wind God Gau in one of the reissues, but it goes without saying that Gau as he currently exists is capable of being the most powerful character in the game. I guess that's to make up for his attacks being random and uncontrollable, but even so, he's still too powerful. Then again, so are basically all the characters in the game to a lesser extent.

    Obviously a lot of the bosses should be way more powerful. Especially Kefka. For a final boss who had absorbed the entire source of magic in his universe he was disappointingly weak. I would also throw in the removed KaiserDragon as an optional boss (I think they did this in Advance, but I never played it).

    That's a fair kickoff selection. I would probably do more things but those alone would improve the game a lot.
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    Edit from a post I made a while back:
    As has been said i'd weaken the op'd characters and power up some characters with crappy skills. I would make Blitz require MP and if possible make learning new blitzes plot related rather than level related (eg, visiting the spring in the phantom forest teaches Mantra and such).
    Make Tools be 1 use per battle or have some kind of ammo system.
    Allow Runic work on every magic spell.
    Gau would be able to leap an enemy outside the veldt but it works in a final blow sort of way like morphing monsters to items in FFVII (the veldt would still be available as is incase you missed out on a monster or boss).
    I would either leave swordtech as is or make cyan a dark knight like character which allows him to pick whichever swordtech he wants but he spends hp to use it. Alternatively make 'cover' a unique ability to him.
    And have the moves that are damage OR instant kill inflict damage even when the instant kill is activated since so many monsters are imune to it (particularly Cyan's Swordtech and chainsaw).
    I cant think of a way to power up Morph so I would use it more, maybe make it last until you deactivate it, but it drains mp every turn, and it allows terra to summon any esper I have already collected or any esper that is not currently equiped or possibly if there were different types of morph like Vincent has.
    Make summons more powerful or atleast make thier power scale with the equiped characters 'compatiability (possibly based on the percentage of spells he/she has learnt which the esper teaches)

    Also either add some kind of emotional scene for reviving Cid or make it compulsory that he dies.

    The Job system in FFV required a lot of work to master, and it wasn't really practical to have all characters master all jobs until at least the second world, if not the Void. It doesn't hurt that FFV was set up to be a much more challenging game, either.
    As much as I love the class system in V, I definitely wouldnt do this. I think the 1 character 1 class system is part of what gave FF6 it's charm. If each character could change class there would hardly be a need for there to be 14 characters in the game which would make FF6 majorly lose it's apeal.
    Last edited by blackmage_nuke; 08-19-2012 at 01:01 AM.
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    Famine Wolf Cid's Knight Sephex's Avatar
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    Make the game harder, but not LOL CRAZY JRPG GRIND 8000 LEVELS TO WIN.

    I would also recommend giving each character unique dialogue for EVERYTHING in the World of Ruin.

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    pirate heartbreaker The Man's Avatar
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    As much as I love the class system in V, I definitely wouldnt do this. I think the 1 character 1 class system is part of what gave FF6 it's charm. If each character could change class there would hardly be a need for there to be 14 characters in the game which would make FF6 majorly lose it's apeal.
    Well, one reason for the large number of characters is because a lot of them have major plot relevance. I guess characters like Gau and Mog would lose a lot of their point though.

    Anyway that's why I also suggested another possibility would be having a hybrid of the job system and FFVI's system, where characters can learn a lot of abilities but each character has one unique ability.
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    Make the enemies harder. SEND ME A CHALLENGER WORTHY OF MY DEATH SQUAD

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    Bleys Maynard (Sargatanas)
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    JP gamers whined that there was too much grinding in FFV, so Square made FFVI easier. Now NA gamers are whining that FFVI is too easy. There is no victory for the developer.

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    Shlup's Retired Pimp Raistlin's Avatar
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    I don't think the entire battle system was broken, there were just some spells and abilities that were disproportionally powerful. These just would need to be nerfed to make it more "balanced." Limit their usage, lower a character's MP or ability to regain it, and lower the damage. Or you could just increase the levels/stats of all the baddies. It's really not all that complicated when you get down to it.

    Then again, I didn't overly mind the ease of the game. I play most JRPGs looking for great characters, an engaging story, and at least some entertaining gameplay (which is often fulfilled by exploration and sidequests). There are some notable exceptions (FFT), but some of my other favorite RPGs aren't much more difficult than FFVI. On some of my second+ playthroughs in other RPGs years ago, I sometimes utilized glitches or outright Gameshark just so I could enjoy the story without feeling the need to grind.

    EDIT:

    Quote Originally Posted by Deli
    Replace it with Tactics' battle system. Thread over.
    I approve that your answer for how to improve FF games is "be more like FFT."
    Last edited by Raistlin; 08-20-2012 at 04:41 AM.

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    Slothstronaut Slothy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Del Murder View Post
    Replace it with Tactics' battle system. Thread over.
    Well, looks like Del cracked the code right away. We can all go home now boys and girls.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Man View Post
    Alternately, I would leave the current system but make it so most characters can master much less magic, depending on their starting job. Having all characters able to learn all spells removes a large part of the difficulty from the later part of the game. There is essentially no reason to use most characters' special abilities once they learn enough magic. The special abilities are just kind of... there.
    I actually think this might be going down the right track. Perhaps have affinities for each character to different spell types. Their affinity level could determine things like what level of spell they can learn, and how many spells they can have equipped at any one time. Characters who are natural mages would obviously get more, while characters like Sabin might not be able to learn anything but basic spells or even none at all. Really limit how much you can beef up everyone so you don't have a party with four people casting Ultima every turn. I'd even say lower the MP level for most characters as well so it's actually a somewhat limited resource.


    Beyond that, I wouldn't go so far as to make Gem Box/Economizer/Offering require two relic slots, but I would probably nerf the Gem Box/Economizer and Offering/Genji Glove combos. Seriously, having the potential for five spells a turn cast for 5MP or eight attacks is just ridiculous.
    They are definitely ridiculous. I might be for removing them altogether myself, but if not, at least have some big downsides to each to limit them a bit. I can live with the Genji Glove as is, but the Gem Box and Economizer, combined with the Quick spell, or the Offering with the Genji Glove are brutally overpowered. I'd say ditch the economizer altogether and have the offering and Gem Box take up two slots as you said could be good. Combine it with a less abusable magic system and the problem should be drastically reduced while keeping something that is undeniably fun.

    Osmose needs to at least fail sometimes or something. There is no point ever conserving MP in the game as it exists because you can always recover it with minimal effort.
    I like this, but I think I'd want to have Osmose recover far less MP as well. That and limiting who can even cast it would certainly help. Make it useful when it works, but not something that outclasses expensive Ethers or something and is basically free.

    Quote Originally Posted by blackmage_nuke View Post
    I would make Blitz require MP and if possible make learning new blitzes plot related rather than level related (eg, visiting the spring in the phantom forest teaches Mantra and such).
    Make Tools be 1 use per battle or have some kind of ammo system.

    ...

    I would either leave swordtech as is or make cyan a dark knight like character which allows him to pick whichever swordtech he wants but he spends hp to use it. Alternatively make 'cover' a unique ability to him.
    I'm digging these suggestions.

    I cant think of a way to power up Morph so I would use it more, maybe make it last until you deactivate it, but it drains mp every turn, and it allows terra to summon any esper I have already collected or any esper that is not currently equiped or possibly if there were different types of morph like Vincent has.
    Letting Terra turn into a summoner with Morph isn't bad, but I wonder if maybe it would be interesting to block off the very high level spells, and perhaps even Espers from other characters but leave them available to Terra to use, but only when morphed. So she might have to Morph to use high level spells like Ultima and Life 3, but have Morph drain a bit faster and don't give any bonus damage for the change. Perhaps instead of making it build up over time as you fight you could give her an ability which let's her meditate or something in battle to build up her ability to morph, and once it's available it always lasts for the same amount of time? Morph is tough because as it is I think it's something that's useful, but not overly so with so many overpowered attacks. I think relegating your big attacks to it could help with that.

    Some good ideas floating around so far.

  12. #12
    pirate heartbreaker The Man's Avatar
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    Morph would probably be a lot more useful if you even just left the ability as it is but reduced how overpowered the characters are. As it is, it's so easy to hit the damage cap that by a certain point in the game there is literally no advantage to using it.
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    Slothstronaut Slothy's Avatar
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    There is that, but part of me likes the idea of Esper form Terra being the only one with the required level of magical ability to use the really big spells. I mean, by the end pretty much anyone is more powerful than every Esper ever. Even the meat head who strayed from his gym. I'll admit I like that a bit more for story reasons than just for gameplay though. It just kind of gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling about it.

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    pirate heartbreaker The Man's Avatar
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    That is a pretty cool idea, I must say.
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    I agree with limiting or changing some of the special skills like Blitz, etc.

    I would have more statistical variety with the characters in terms of HP, Vigor, etc. Most of all, though, I would have characters have a Skill Point system, in which they can choose to "buy" spells from lists when they level up. Espers still teach summons, but will mostly affect stats as you level up with them. Upon getting Espers, spells as well as other things (like HP +10% or Cover, as well as "Dual-Wield" or "Use Maces") will replace Relics and the typical magic system. Characters like Sabin and Cyan would be mostly limited to combat-based skills, while Terra and Celes will get black and white magic, respectively along with their own spells. Each character has a more defined class, but more versatility within it.



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