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Thread: Elementary

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vivi22 View Post
    I've been meaning to watch Sherlock as well since you mention it Freya. I have to get to that soon, though I must say I found the idea of the BBC claiming some degree of ownership over the concept of a modern take on Sherlock Holmes quite laughable.
    That's because you haven't watched the BBC version. It's not just a modern remake of Sherlock, it's a complete re-imagining. There are certain elements to the BBC's Sherlock that are unique to that show and doesn't fall under public domain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivi22 View Post
    I'm not denying that it was a bit of a slap in the face, it's just that at the end of the day if they want to make a different modern take on Sherlock Holmes the BBC can't really do much unless they blatantly steal characters or scripts almost verbatim.
    They don't need to do anything as obvious as steal dialogue VERBATIM. For example, the BBC's Sherlock has a very distinct visual style. A fabulous one, I might add. If CBS even sniffed around doing something similar, I do think Moffat and crew wouldn't hesitate to sue.

    I've even heard that technically, they could even try and protect BBC Sherlock's distinctive clothing style.

    The BBC's Sherlock is ridiculously, outrageously amazing. I have really zero desire to watch the CBS version because the whole time, I think I'd be comparing the two. The CBS one also seems rather like a standard detective/cop/crime type show that's too similar to the plethora of other existing shows.

    I actually don't mind the fact that they made Watson a girl, but really, the bromance is the best part about Sherlock. And the bromance on the BBC's Sherlock is part of what makes it so god damn amazing. You guys, that last season finale. Omg, my heart.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Big Hands View Post
    I find it difficult to believe it will be as good as the last couple Sherlock Holmes movies, and probably won't watch it until it's out on DVD and someone I know picks it up.
    I enjoyed the recent Sherlock movies but the BBC version is better. Completely different, but still better.

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    pirate heartbreaker The Man's Avatar
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    Having re-watched the entire BBC series this week, there's absolutely no way it will be bettered this generation. I'm not even exaggerating.

    I think I TiVo'd this so I'll see how I feel about it. Maybe it'll be a better-than-average crime drama but it won't have anything on the Moffat/Gatiss series. Everything about the BBC version is absolutely perfect.

    And yeah the second series finale is just wrenching.
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    I actually don't mind the fact that they made Watson a girl, but really, the bromance is the best part about Sherlock.
    I don't really have a problem with them making Watson female. I don't find anything wrong with that at all. My main concern is that they did it for the sole purpose of the sexual tension or eventual relationship between Sherlock and Watson, as most American television shows seem most concerned with doing this between male and female lead characters.

    And I'll jump on the train for any and all BBC Sherlock love and/or Benedict Cumberbatch circlejerking.

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    Oh wait, it's on CBS? I'm out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. Murder View Post
    That's because you haven't watched the BBC version. It's not just a modern remake of Sherlock, it's a complete re-imagining. There are certain elements to the BBC's Sherlock that are unique to that show and doesn't fall under public domain.
    Did I ever say anything to the contrary? Simply making another modern re-imagining of Sherlock Holmes isn't going to be enough to get CBS in legal trouble though. If they start lifting things Sherlock did verbatim then I'd be happy to criticize them, but it seemed a bit silly to get bent out of shape before anyone had even seen the show. So long as Elementary is sufficiently different there should be no issue.

    And I actually have watched Sherlock now (watched it all between Thursday night and Sunday morning actually) and I agree, it is amazing and there's absolutely no way that a 20 some episode network series from America is going to top it. Benedict Cumberbatch is a sexy beast. In fact, I actually didn't even watch the pilot for Elementary because I completely forgot about it somewhere around the point Watson was introduced to Sherlock and he got sibling with a drinking problem and psychosomatic limp. Odds are I probably won't watch it now because I can't be arsed to catch up on a new show unless I hear it's jaw droppingly amazing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunny View Post
    I don't really have a problem with them making Watson female. I don't find anything wrong with that at all. My main concern is that they did it for the sole purpose of the sexual tension or eventual relationship between Sherlock and Watson, as most American television shows seem most concerned with doing this between male and female lead characters.
    I agree. See: Castle. My god, Castle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vivi22 View Post
    If they start lifting things Sherlock did verbatim then I'd be happy to criticize them, but it seemed a bit silly to get bent out of shape before anyone had even seen the show. So long as Elementary is sufficiently different there should be no issue.
    You would need VERBATIM theft in order to criticize? That's giving rather lot of latitude.

    People, especially the creators of Sherlock, are rightfully annoyed because having turned down CBS to do a remake of their currently airing TV show, they went ahead and made their own inferior product anyway. It's not even as though Sherlock isn't airing in the States, it is via PBS.

    It's just rude and not very creative to boot.

    People have a right to protect their creative endeavors. CBS saw the great success of Sherlock, the fact that Sherlock Holmes itself falls under public domain and bam! Oh hey! We're gonna do a modern retake too! But uh, instead of a highly functioning sociopath, we're making him do a stint in rehab. And Watson's a girl! We're sooooo different.

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    Slothstronaut Recognized Member Slothy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. Murder View Post
    You would need VERBATIM theft in order to criticize? That's giving rather lot of latitude.

    People, especially the creators of Sherlock, are rightfully annoyed because having turned down CBS to do a remake of their currently airing TV show, they went ahead and made their own inferior product anyway. It's not even as though Sherlock isn't airing in the States, it is via PBS.

    It's just rude and not very creative to boot.

    People have a right to protect their creative endeavors. CBS saw the great success of Sherlock, the fact that Sherlock Holmes itself falls under public domain and bam! Oh hey! We're gonna do a modern retake too! But uh, instead of a highly functioning sociopath, we're making him do a stint in rehab. And Watson's a girl! We're sooooo different.
    I'm not saying no one can criticize it for being a modern re-imagining of Sherlock Holmes after they were turned down about remaking Sherlock. But I would personally withhold criticism about them blatantly stealing anything until I actually saw it and could determine if they did. This is what I'm getting at. As far as I can tell, they haven't infringed on any copyright as the concept seems sufficiently different to get around it.

    Sure it's seems slightly underhanded and uncreative, but I'm not going to accuse them of stealing or infringing on intellectual property prior to actually seeing if they did. So far, that seems to be what many people who've attacked them over this have been at least heavily implying (and I'm not necessarily referring to people here or the creators of Sherlock but people making comments on other sites and articles when the show was originally announced, though it was inevitable that lighting that fire in the media was going to send some fans off on a crusade to vilify this show).

    I could care less if the idea is unoriginal and is merely trying to ride the success of another show, I need a bit more than that to accuse them of outright infringement.

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    I haven't seen anyone claim copyright infringement off the bat, it's just the potential for thievery is obviously there. It's more annoyance and incredulity in the same line as, "Why is there a new spiderman movie already?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. Murder View Post
    It's more annoyance and incredulity in the same line as, "Why is there a new spiderman movie already?"
    Yeah, some people are idiots and don't understand copyright law on even the most basic level though.

    As for that question, it's pretty easy, because The Amazing Spider-Man was better than the original Spider-Man trilogy by a fair margin.

    And just to show that I actually do really really like Sherlock; this was my entry in the FFV costume contest since no one actually looks in that forum (and all the Sherlock fans seem to be in this thread):

  11. #26
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    Toot toot all aboard the BBC train.

    That showdown between Moriarty and Sherlock. Just... smurf a DUCK!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psychotic View Post
    Toot toot all aboard the BBC train.

    That showdown between Moriarty and Sherlock. Just... smurf a DUCK!
    That was pretty damn incredible.

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  14. #29
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    Watched this last night. I would say it is good, not great, but it does have potential. The main thing that lifts the BBC show well above this, apart from its devotion to canon, is the chemistry between Holmes and Watson. Cumberbatch and Freeman are the objectively two perfect people to play those roles.

    It appears that the makers of this show are going for a bit of a different take on Holmes than either the Guy Ritchie films or the BBC show. Which is fine; the nice thing about the Holmes stories is that they offer a lot of room for interpretation. But I would say this is a much looser adaptation of the canon than the Moffat/Gatiss show. The BBC version has what I would call a polyamorous relationship with the canon - it is largely based on the original Holmes stories with tons of call-backs to the underlying mythology, but they throw in bits from elsewhere to make it more modern as well. Elementary is more of an open relationship or even friends with benefits. The main characters are clearly Holmes and Watson, but obviously transporting the show from London to New York has changed quite a few things, and it appears that they're going for original stories rather than interpretations of the Holmes canon. Which is fine, if they're well written.

    The interpretations of Holmes are also quite different. He's arrogant and socially awkward in both, but Moffat's Holmes is, if not completely asexual (Moffat has stated that he isn't asexual, but we all know what a Lying/Trolling Creator he is, so that could mean anything), then celibate. This Holmes is... not. When we're introduced to him we see a woman getting dressed in his room and leaving before Watson shows up, and he later remarks that he does not function well without sex. (Certainly a rather big departure from the Conan Doyle stories, but I'm willing to see where they're going with it). This is also different from the Ritchie/Downey version, who romances Irene Adler but does not come across as particularly sex-dependent. (Also a bit of a departure from canon, by the way, more so I'd say than making him an action hero - as far as I can remember he never actually shows any interest in romance in any of the stories).

    The opening story was pretty engaging. Not exactly unpredictable, but the writing did a reasonably credible job establishing Holmes as a genius and presenting Watson's potential as an investigator. It does have the same problem the original stories and most of the adaptations of the Holmes canon (including the BBC version) do, that Holmes is almost unnaturally smarter than the rest of the characters, including ones who are supposed to be fairly smart on their own. (For instance, in the BBC show, even (SPOILER)Irene Adler, who is presented as being a worthy adversary to Holmes, makes a number of rather stupid mistakes, despite being presented as a perfectly intelligent character. Even Moriarty makes the rather crucial mistake of (SPOILER)not expecting Holmes to turn to Molly Hooper when Watson, Mrs. Hudson and Lestrade).

    I do rather hope that they don't turn this into a show with clear romantic tension between the leads. I'm pretty sure they couldn't outdo Castle. This is what the producers have said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beverly
    Rob [Doherty] often calls it a bromance, but one of the bros just happens to be a woman. He said that from the very beginning and I think it's really an apt description. There's this idea that a man and a woman can't be together on a show especially without needing to be together sexually or in love or whatever, and this is really about the evolution of a friendship and how that happens.
    So make of that what you will.

    Haven't seen Moriarty yet. The actor had better be good. I'm not familiar with Jonny Lee Miller's previous work, but he's rather charming as Sherlock. Lucy Liu, as expected, was good in the role.
    Last edited by The Man; 09-29-2012 at 05:49 PM.
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  15. #30
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    I watched about 30 minutes of it. It's pretty bad. There is virtually no difference between this show and The Mentalist, Lie to Me, Monk, or any other crime solving show that features a guy with a special ability to solve crimes and his female handler. For that reason it may actually succeed.

    Jonny Lee Miller's Holmes doesn't do anything for me either. The problem he has is that there are already two modern portrayals of Sherlock Holmes out there, both of which are quite different, and in my opinion, quite good. His Holmes doesn't really distinguish itself from the others and it seems like it's trying to be a mixture of both. I didn't watch this and get 'Sherlock Holmes' from that character. I just got a British guy who can solve crimes.

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