Who is stronger, Cloud or Zack?

[maybee]

The Cloud everyone likes is actually Zack, or at least how Cloud percieves Zack. Don't knock CC. Unlike DoC and BC it is a solid game, with a terrific story, and a lovable main character.

Crisis Core annoys me and upsets me personally because it messes and destorys the original story and character development that was born throughout the original game. It would be fine if it didn't touch or try and change the original story; but it did and it's terribly annoying.

Zack is a okay main character; but he's not new or fresh in any way. He's a outgoing nice guy. That would of been cool if it was done way back in 2001 way before Zidane and Tidus but it's not. In fact way before 1994 with Locke Cole.

He also wants to be a hero okay well so does Snow from Final Fantasy 13; yet everybody hates Snow and loves Zack, it doesn't make any sense.

People love the original Cloud. Not the depressive guy we see in Advent Children or the Dissidia game. The Cloud that said " Let's Mosey " ! Before facing Sephiroth. That Cloud. Nobody likes a depressive character that brings your mood down and makes you feel like taking your car out the garage and just driving over the cliff; but SE seems to think that we love it.

EDIT. Laguna Loire ! See another outgoing friendly character that helps others. See Zack isn't original or a bit creative or new or refreshing in the slighest because Locke, Laguna, Zidane did it all before him. So why should Zack get the attention and the praise when somebody like Zidane has shown a kind-heart to a mass murderer Kuja ?

[Hollycat]

So this is basically a Genwunner vs. a Ilikethemaller arguement?

[ReloadPsi]

Well it seems you're more going for the retconned version of the story and characters anyway. The Cloud in Crisis Core and the rest of the compilation, as maybee points out, is basically not the same character, and if you're going to retcon something I like for the sake of earning some more money, damn straight I'm going to treat it like it's non-canon.

And if that's not what you're doing... well then you're asking the same thing as who'd win in a fight between Adam West's Batman and Heath Ledger's Joker. It's a ridiculous comparison because they're from two completely different worlds.

Cloud in the Compilation is an irritating pussy. Zack in the Compilation is a bad-ass.

Cloud in the original game is a bad-ass who awakens from a two-week coma and is fighting Carry Armor and hijacking submarines the same day. Zack in the original game is seen getting curbstopmed by Sephiroth and killed by a Shinra soldier, guys who normal people like Tifa, Barret, hell, even Aeris, smurfing AERIS THE FLOWER GIRL can kill by the dozens with no apparent effort. And it's just one Shinra soldier too seen to be killing him, accompanied by two others. Crisis Core retconned it into a full-on Bolivian army ending. That is not what we were shown; remember Cloud has total clarity of his memories by the time we're shown this scene.

[maybee]

Well it seems you're more going for the retconned version of the story and characters anyway. The Cloud in Crisis Core and the rest of the compilation, as maybee points out, is basically not the same character, and if you're going to retcon something I like for the sake of earning some more money, damn straight I'm going to treat it like it's non-canon..

This

Cloud in the Compilation is an irritating pussy. Zack in the Compilation is a bad-ass.

Cloud in the original game is a bad-ass who awakens from a two-week coma and is fighting Carry Armor and hijacking submarines the same day. Zack in the original game is seen getting curbstopmed by Sephiroth and killed by a Shinra soldier.

This again.

Cloud Final Fantasy VII " I'm a bit messed up in the head from the experiments that I've been through, but it's all okay; I'm okay to make Sephiroth pay for what he's done "!

Cloud Advent Children " Nooo Kadaj hit me with a sword... I'm going to sulk and whine... I can't help anybody... I'm useless... Sephiroth scares me Mummy " !

Cloud Dissidia " I am............ a emo "

Zack FF VII " Sephiroth is really awesome and I'm his biggest fan " ! " Oh whoops a Nibelhiem Dragon defeated me, but that's okay " !

Zack Crisis Core " I'm a prideful Solider that can fly within the air like firetucking Superman and I can defeat tons of millions of Wutai Soliders within one hit because I might as well be the Final Fantasy version of Jesus ".

[ReloadPsi]

Cloud Final Fantasy VII " I'm a bit messed up in the head from the experiments that I've been through, but it's all okay; I'm okay to make Sephiroth pay for what he's done "!

Cloud Advent Children " Nooo Kadaj hit me with a sword... I'm going to sulk and whine... I can't help anybody... I'm useless... Sephiroth scares me Mummy " !

Cloud Dissidia " I am............ a emo "

And this is just it. The "Cloud was emulating Zack in the original game" argument that I think has been made already doesn't fly at all because after Cloud finds himself, he's still got the same great deal of grit, determination and swagger about him. It's just that now he's taken it and made it his own. Advent Children suggests he just forgot all that. "Welp, saved the world, time to go back to my identity crisis despite my journey to save the world turning out to be about having successfully overcome it." Absolute bollocks. I hate the FF7 spin-offs more than anyone over the age of 25 hates the Star Wars prequels.

[Hollycat]

[QUOTE=maybee;3129808]

Zack FF VII " Sephiroth is really awesome and I'm his biggest fan " ! " Oh whoops a Nibelhiem Dragon defeated me, but that's okay " !

Zack Crisis Core " I'm a prideful Solider that can fly within the air like firetucking Superman and I can defeat tons of millions of Wutai Soliders within one hit because I might as well be the Final Fantasy version of Jesus ".

I'm actually looking at it as Cloud from 7 and Zack from Crisis Core.

And no. Zack isn't that way in 7. That is a fabricated memory. Remember, even before he left Neiblhiem Cloud was a huge Sephiroth fan.

And how was Zack Curbstomped? He pulverized Sephiroth who then took him by surprise. Wasn't exactly fair. Cloud only defeated Sephiroth because he could barely walk, much less finish off Cloud.
I'm not saying Cloud is weak, I'm saying he isn't as strong as a man who in his story kills a goddess, defeats the man who could have killed sephiroth with one blow, and makes not one, but three badass flower carts.

Edit: also, I agree that cloud is wonkey in AC. I'm not talking about AC or DoC.

[ReloadPsi]

That's... that's not a fabricated memory. The stuff you see in the Lifestream (once Tifa stops cutting in with corrections anyway) is accurate, i.e. Zack runs into the Jenova chamber and comes flying out like a bitch five seconds later. The whole point of that entire section is that by this time Cloud starts telling the truth.

Crisis Core retcons it and so you're still basically comparing Adam West Batman to Heath Ledger Joker. They don't belong together. I'm certainly not going to start playing a game of which retcon I do and don't agree with because I don't do retcon, full stop. Otherwise if you're agreeing with Crisis Core's rewrite of the backstory then you're agreeing with the rest of the Compilation's rewrite of Cloud, who sucks. And my comparison to Star Wars prequels blah-blah-blah you get it. If I must be called a "Genwunner" then fine.

[Jiro]

That would go in his favour of having Zack win though

[ReloadPsi]

What would? I'm presenting two near-opposite scenarios here that have entirely different outcomes :P

[Jiro]

Retcon Zack to be awesome(r) and Cloud to be trout(ter)

[Mercen-X]

Zack FF VII " Sephiroth is really awesome and I'm his biggest fan " ! " Oh whoops a Nibelheim Dragon defeated me, but that's okay " !

That's... not a fabricated memory. The stuff you see in the Lifestream (once Tifa stops cutting in with corrections anyway) is accurate, i.e. Zack runs into the Jenova chamber and comes flying out like a bitch five seconds later. The whole point of that entire section is that by this time Cloud starts telling the truth.

Actually, it is a fabricated memory. When Cloud recounts the Nibelheim events in Kalm, he's not remembering events properly. Yes, he mostly injects himself where Zack should be, but that's not a guarantee that each case is like this. Do you really think that with a truck full of Shinra MPs that only Sephiroth and Zack would have gotten out to face that dragon? Cloud being easily pwned isn't a reflection of Zack's statistics at the time of the Nibel events. It's a reflection of how Cloud honestly saw himself in comparison to Sephiroth. And "five seconds later" is just you misinterpreting the passage of time as represented in the Lifestream. Cloud was not present to see Zack fall and Tifa was unconscious. It could very well have been 15-20 minutes before Cloud arrived... by the way, let's not forget, Cloud only "defeated" Sephiroth because he took him by surprise.

[maybee]

Z by the way, let's not forget, Cloud only "defeated" Sephiroth because he took him by surprise.

Sephiroth wasn't defeated really though and he should and most likely would of killed Cloud or a normal person. As mentioned before Cloud grabbed Sephiroth by his sword and tossed him to the lifestream below like he was just a weak toy.

A normal person would of died via Sephiroth's stabbing. Whether Sephiroth was weak then or not. But Cloud managed to do the impossible and heroically grab Sephiroth' sword and probably defeat him then.

It's why Cloud is such a beloved and iconic character and why he's stronger than Zack. Because he managed to overcome the impossible.

And Cloud was there during the Dragon fight event. The Lifestream event with Tifa shows that Zack was yes indeed a hyperactive Sephiroth fanboy that Sephiroth saw as a kid or rather acted like a child. Cloud was being car-sick while Sephiroth and Zack went outside to face the dragon so Cloud would of witnessed the event. Zack was weak in compassion to Sephiroth, in true Final Fantasy VII official events.

[Hollycat]

Z by the way, let's not forget, Cloud only "defeated" Sephiroth because he took him by surprise.

Sephiroth wasn't defeated really though and he should and most likely would of killed Cloud or a normal person. As mentioned before Cloud grabbed Sephiroth by his sword and tossed him to the lifestream below like he was just a weak toy.

A normal person would of died via Sephiroth's stabbing. Whether Sephiroth was weak then or not. But Cloud managed to do the impossible and heroically grab Sephiroth' sword and probably defeat him then.

It's why Cloud is such a beloved and iconic character and why he's stronger than Zack. Because he managed to overcome the impossible.

And Cloud was there during the Dragon fight event. The Lifestream event with Tifa shows that Zack was yes indeed a hyperactive Sephiroth fanboy that Sephiroth saw as a kid or rather acted like a child. Cloud was being car-sick while Sephiroth and Zack went outside to face the dragon so Cloud would of witnessed the event. Zack was weak in compassion to Sephiroth, in true Final Fantasy VII official events.

99% of that was bulltrout. And I'm not going to explain why.

[Jiro]

Explanations make the world go round.

[krissy]

Jiro is a popcorn salesman, don't trust his scheming