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Thread: Kain and Rydia Overrated?

  1. #1

    Default Kain and Rydia Overrated?

    First of all, I just want to say I mean overrated character wise, not in-game use wise.

    Anyways, I've always noticed that Kain and Rydia get a lot of praise and are some of the most liked characters in FFIV, but I really never got why they're liked so much.

    Kain, fine, I'll admit that his armor looks quite neat and his personality (when he's not a brainwashed traitor) is quite cool. But the fact that he spends a majority of the game letting Golbez control him him kills off my admiration for him as a character. I mean, people always complain about Sephiroth's mommy issues and Tidus' daddy issues, but why does Kain get a free pass with his "oh Rosa doesn't love me" issues? Cecil and Rosa are some of his dearest friends, yet he completely turns on both of them just to get what he wants, even though Rosa wouldn't be happy with him. And no, there was no past with Rosa and Kain being together before Final Fantasy IV's events since the DS version made it very clear in the flashbacks that Rosa was always interested in Cecil even as kids. I wouldn't be suprised if a Kain fan came up with that just to defend Kain.

    As for Rydia, I don't find her as bad as Kain, since she doesn't let her jealously turn her into a traitor, but why do people insist on idolizing her as a "strong female"? Sure, I suppose when compared to Rosa she seems that way, but there's plently of times when she breaks down such as casting Fire at Mt. Hobbes and after Edge gets defeated by Rubicant. And yes, Rosa does need help quite a few times like with her Desert Fever and getting kidnapped by Golbez. But it's not like either time it was Rosa's fault. If Cecil had feelings for Rydia and not Rosa, Rydia would've been the one to be kidnapped and it's not like Rosa is any stronger than Rydia because of it. Also, people always seem to overlook Rydia getting knocked out by Titan's summoning (this one is understandable though) and having Cecil protect her from the Baron Guards, yet hold Rosa's desert fever against her.

    What do you guys think?

  2. #2
    YOU BOYS LIKE MEXICO?! Jowy's Avatar
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    I liked them because of their high damage output!
    Last edited by Jowy; 10-29-2012 at 01:19 AM. Reason: and the sound effects for jump and virus

  3. #3
    Queen of the BushHags Takara's Avatar
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    I think what makes Kain so popular among a lot of the fans is that he's so, well, human compared to a lot of other characters from the Final Fantasy franchise. He's a good guy deep down, but he's also really flawed. It's probably easier for a lot of players to relate to him as opposed to, say, Cecil, because he's not perfect.

    Sure he's jealous of Cecil because he's more successful, Rosa loves him, and the King is more fond of him, but brainwashing from Golbez aside, he still shows some traits that can be seen as admirable. He shows remorse for his actions and accepts responsibility for them instead of blaming them on Golbez's control. He even out rightly tells Cecil and Edge to not hesitate to kill him if he gets controlled again, because he knows that Cecil and friends are the last hope of the Blue Planet against Ze(ro)mus and him becoming someone's puppet again could be disastrous. That takes a lot of courage to admit, wouldn't you say? The ultimania also explains how he basically single-handedly restored the Dragoons corps after his father's death, and how he turned down the King's proposal to train as a dark knight too for it. Okay, sure, that only helped fueled his jealousy toward Cecil afterwards, but when you think about it, that was a pretty... well, I wouldn't say it was selfless, but it was SOMETHING alright. "What's that Your Majesty? You are offering me money, success, and more power? No thanks. See, the Dragoons, a long-time Baronian military tradition, have been suffering since the creation of the Red Wings and stuff, so I'll just follow in my old man's footsteps and try to get more recruits in and get the corps rolling again, plzkthx".

    Also he's kinda hot, but I've been a rabid Kain fangirl since 1993 or 1994 so that's probably my bias talking here. >_>

    As for Rydia, my opinion is that people prefer her because they often completely misinterpret Rosa's character. I think they are both strong female characters, even if they both have their damsel-in-distress moments and their emotional moments. But I think people focus more on Rosa's weaknesses than her strengths because she is the designated love interest, and instead focus more on Rydia's strengths than her weaknesses.

  4. #4
    Yes, I'm a FF III fan. Elpizo's Avatar
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    I think Rydia being kinda Final Fantasy's first hot babe, with Bahamut at her fingertips to boot, had a big hand in upping her popularity as well.

  5. #5
    Fortune Teller Roogle's Avatar
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    Rydia has a natural advantage in the hearts of players because she undergoes a big change in the course of the story. She is introduced to the story as a small child and comes back at a pivotal moment to help you defeat the boss at the time. The boss battle against Golbez is basically a plot point to bring Rydia, who was presumed to be lost, back to you in a round of action. It is unexpected to the player to have Rydia back in the heat of battle. That was never done before.
    I believe in the power of humanity.

  6. #6
    Radical Dreamer Cid's Knight Fynn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Takara View Post
    I think what makes Kain so popular among a lot of the fans is that he's so, well, human compared to a lot of other characters from the Final Fantasy franchise. He's a good guy deep down, but he's also really flawed. It's probably easier for a lot of players to relate to him as opposed to, say, Cecil, because he's not perfect.

    Sure he's jealous of Cecil because he's more successful, Rosa loves him, and the King is more fond of him, but brainwashing from Golbez aside, he still shows some traits that can be seen as admirable. He shows remorse for his actions and accepts responsibility for them instead of blaming them on Golbez's control. He even out rightly tells Cecil and Edge to not hesitate to kill him if he gets controlled again, because he knows that Cecil and friends are the last hope of the Blue Planet against Ze(ro)mus and him becoming someone's puppet again could be disastrous. That takes a lot of courage to admit, wouldn't you say? The ultimania also explains how he basically single-handedly restored the Dragoons corps after his father's death, and how he turned down the King's proposal to train as a dark knight too for it. Okay, sure, that only helped fueled his jealousy toward Cecil afterwards, but when you think about it, that was a pretty... well, I wouldn't say it was selfless, but it was SOMETHING alright. "What's that Your Majesty? You are offering me money, success, and more power? No thanks. See, the Dragoons, a long-time Baronian military tradition, have been suffering since the creation of the Red Wings and stuff, so I'll just follow in my old man's footsteps and try to get more recruits in and get the corps rolling again, plzkthx".

    Also he's kinda hot, but I've been a rabid Kain fangirl since 1993 or 1994 so that's probably my bias talking here. >_>

    As for Rydia, my opinion is that people prefer her because they often completely misinterpret Rosa's character. I think they are both strong female characters, even if they both have their damsel-in-distress moments and their emotional moments. But I think people focus more on Rosa's weaknesses than her strengths because she is the designated love interest, and instead focus more on Rydia's strengths than her weaknesses.
    Couldn't have said it better myself. Kain's flaws make him interesting as a character. Nobody likes a Mary-Sue :P

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Takara View Post
    I think what makes Kain so popular among a lot of the fans is that he's so, well, human compared to a lot of other characters from the Final Fantasy franchise. He's a good guy deep down, but he's also really flawed. It's probably easier for a lot of players to relate to him as opposed to, say, Cecil, because he's not perfect.

    Sure he's jealous of Cecil because he's more successful, Rosa loves him, and the King is more fond of him, but brainwashing from Golbez aside, he still shows some traits that can be seen as admirable. He shows remorse for his actions and accepts responsibility for them instead of blaming them on Golbez's control. He even out rightly tells Cecil and Edge to not hesitate to kill him if he gets controlled again, because he knows that Cecil and friends are the last hope of the Blue Planet against Ze(ro)mus and him becoming someone's puppet again could be disastrous. That takes a lot of courage to admit, wouldn't you say? The ultimania also explains how he basically single-handedly restored the Dragoons corps after his father's death, and how he turned down the King's proposal to train as a dark knight too for it. Okay, sure, that only helped fueled his jealousy toward Cecil afterwards, but when you think about it, that was a pretty... well, I wouldn't say it was selfless, but it was SOMETHING alright. "What's that Your Majesty? You are offering me money, success, and more power? No thanks. See, the Dragoons, a long-time Baronian military tradition, have been suffering since the creation of the Red Wings and stuff, so I'll just follow in my old man's footsteps and try to get more recruits in and get the corps rolling again, plzkthx".

    Also he's kinda hot, but I've been a rabid Kain fangirl since 1993 or 1994 so that's probably my bias talking here. >_>

    As for Rydia, my opinion is that people prefer her because they often completely misinterpret Rosa's character. I think they are both strong female characters, even if they both have their damsel-in-distress moments and their emotional moments. But I think people focus more on Rosa's weaknesses than her strengths because she is the designated love interest, and instead focus more on Rydia's strengths than her weaknesses.
    Hm... Alright, I'll give Kain credit for imposing to King Baron that he should be a dragoon and him accepting the blame for his treachery as "honourable." Still, the fact that he turned on Cecil and his allies in the first place out of his jealousy cancels out the honourable things he's done in my eyes. If Cecil was all "I don't trust you around Rosa and I don't want you near her" to Kain I'd sympathize with him more, but Cecil and Rosa have done nothing to hurt Kain, and he backstabs Cecil, claims Rosa as her own, blackmails Cecil into giving him the Earth Crystal (not to mention he came up with that plan and not Golbez), and takes the Dark Crystal from Cecil. Some friend Kain is.

    Rydia, you've got me more convinced about her deserved fanbase than Kain. And I'm glad you agree that both Rosa and Rydia are strong females yet have their damsel-in-distress moments yet people focus on Rosa's more than Rydia's. I've always got annoyed at how the same people praising Rydia bash on Rosa. Even without them though, I still think Rydia's praise is a little too much, even if she does have plenty of character development.

    As for Roogle's comment, main characters joining mid-boss against the main antagonist has happened before in Fire Emblem Gaiden on the NES. Though I'll admit it's not as mainstream a game as Final Fantasy IV.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elpizo View Post
    I think Rydia being kinda Final Fantasy's first hot babe, with Bahamut at her fingertips to boot, had a big hand in upping her popularity as well.
    Rosa says hi.

    There's also the FF1-3 ladies such as Princess Sarah, Maria, Hilda, Leila, and Aria. But given the limited technology at the time, I don't blame you for skipping them.

  8. #8
    Yes, I'm a FF III fan. Elpizo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evastio View Post
    Rosa says hi.

    There's also the FF1-3 ladies such as Princess Sarah, Maria, Hilda, Leila, and Aria. But given the limited technology at the time, I don't blame you for skipping them.
    Princess Sarah was an 8-bit minor character that appeared once in a mostly story-less game. Maria, Hilda, Leila and Aria didn't appear in the west until a decade (or more, in Aria's case) after IV. Not that hard to understand why Rydia was often encountered earlier than them and left a bigger impression on people than any of those you mentioned, I'd say.

    And though I personally am not of that opinion, most people prefer Rydia over Rosa (I just like them both). Rosa takes more the role of the sweet, supportive female than the hot sexy babe like Rydia does. I think the fact that she's already taken by Cecil makes people knock off points of her hotness level, for some reason. *shrugs* The GBA face-portrait didn't help matters much either, tbh.

  9. #9

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    No not even close. Cloud, Zack, Sephiroth and Aerith however ? Yes.

    There's some Final Fantasy fans that have no idea who Kain and Rydia even are.



  10. #10
    Yes, I'm a FF III fan. Elpizo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maybee View Post
    No not even close. Cloud, Zack, Sephiroth and Aerith however ? Yes.

    There's some Final Fantasy fans that have no idea who Kain and Rydia even are.
    Well, that's normal for most pre-VII games, actually.

  11. #11
    Back of the net Heath's Avatar
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    I'm afraid I have to agree with Takara as well.

    In respect of Kain, I think Takara is correct that it's his faults and weaknesses which make him interesting. I don't necessarily think that when Kain acts as he does as a villain he's entirely in control of his actions. I always interpreted that (rightly or wrongly) as Kain having desires that he would normally keep suppressed but which allowed Golbez to manipulate him. It was through that manipulation that Kain acts in such a bad way. I shy away from saying evil, because I think to be evil is to be conscious and informed.

    I also think that it's how the party reacts to Kain which makes him interesting. It's hard to imagine that Cecil and Rosa will be able to completely trust Kain again. Yet their forgiveness, and their abiding importance to Kain, give him a reason to fight. Avenging his manipulation and winning back the trust of his friends gives him a reason to fight, and to save the world.

    Perhaps that makes me a Kain apologist of sorts though!

    As for Rydia, I can't help but feel you're being slightly harsh in some of your criticisms. When you refer to Rydia being scared of fire at Mt. Hobbes, you need to consider the context. As a girl of seven, she's just witnessed her village and her family slaughtered by a fire breathing Bomb. I think her aversion to fire is perfectly understandable.

  12. #12
    Queen of the BushHags Takara's Avatar
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    Yes, I'm not saying I condone what Kain did while he was under Golbez's control, nor am I saying we should disregard what he did because he was under Golbez's control. It happened. It was inexcusable. Not disagreeing there.

    But as Heath pointed out, normally he's able to suppress his desires. He likely had thoughts like "I wish I could beat Cecil just to show everyone and especially Rosa that he's not so great". Call it Honour, or morals, or whatever, I'm sure he was then quite capable of going "No, I shouldn't think like that, it's wrong" afterwards. Had Kain been able to leave Mist with Cecil after the earthquake, I doubt he would have betrayed him and Rosa of his own volition. It took Golbez to bring that out of him.

    As for Rydia, she was seven. I don't know many seven years old who would recover from PTSD as quickly as she did. Heck, I don't even know many adults who could.

  13. #13
    Famine Wolf Cid's Knight Sephex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jowy View Post
    I liked them because of their high damage output!
    You just said that to Rydia because you wanted to get in her pants.

  14. #14
    Yes, I'm a FF III fan. Elpizo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sephex View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jowy View Post
    I liked them because of their high damage output!
    You just said that to Rydia because you wanted to get in her pants.
    Rydia does not wear pants.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elpizo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Evastio View Post
    Rosa says hi.

    There's also the FF1-3 ladies such as Princess Sarah, Maria, Hilda, Leila, and Aria. But given the limited technology at the time, I don't blame you for skipping them.
    Princess Sarah was an 8-bit minor character that appeared once in a mostly story-less game. Maria, Hilda, Leila and Aria didn't appear in the west until a decade (or more, in Aria's case) after IV. Not that hard to understand why Rydia was often encountered earlier than them and left a bigger impression on people than any of those you mentioned, I'd say.

    And though I personally am not of that opinion, most people prefer Rydia over Rosa (I just like them both). Rosa takes more the role of the sweet, supportive female than the hot sexy babe like Rydia does. I think the fact that she's already taken by Cecil makes people knock off points of her hotness level, for some reason. *shrugs* The GBA face-portrait didn't help matters much either, tbh.
    I stated in my post that since it was the 8-bit era, its reasonable that women from FFs 1-3 were skipped.

    Even with the portrayals that you mentioned in your second paragraph, official FF4 bios (from Square Enix) on sites and guides made it quite clear that Rosa is supposed to be the main beauty of FF4, especially with Cecil, Kain, and Edge liking Rosa, but only Edge liking Rydia. The FF4 Advance manual bio even states that Rosa is "renowned for her beauty across Baron." Also, if Rosa having Cecil lowered her hotness level, I don't see why it did the same to Tifa since she has Cloud (and their relationship is made very clear early in the game, similar to Cecil and Rosa). Regardless, I think you're right about that regarding some fans, that they don't like Rosa as much because she's not single.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heath View Post
    I'm afraid I have to agree with Takara as well.

    In respect of Kain, I think Takara is correct that it's his faults and weaknesses which make him interesting. I don't necessarily think that when Kain acts as he does as a villain he's entirely in control of his actions. I always interpreted that (rightly or wrongly) as Kain having desires that he would normally keep suppressed but which allowed Golbez to manipulate him. It was through that manipulation that Kain acts in such a bad way. I shy away from saying evil, because I think to be evil is to be conscious and informed.

    I also think that it's how the party reacts to Kain which makes him interesting. It's hard to imagine that Cecil and Rosa will be able to completely trust Kain again. Yet their forgiveness, and their abiding importance to Kain, give him a reason to fight. Avenging his manipulation and winning back the trust of his friends gives him a reason to fight, and to save the world.

    Perhaps that makes me a Kain apologist of sorts though!

    As for Rydia, I can't help but feel you're being slightly harsh in some of your criticisms. When you refer to Rydia being scared of fire at Mt. Hobbes, you need to consider the context. As a girl of seven, she's just witnessed her village and her family slaughtered by a fire breathing Bomb. I think her aversion to fire is perfectly understandable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Takara View Post
    Yes, I'm not saying I condone what Kain did while he was under Golbez's control, nor am I saying we should disregard what he did because he was under Golbez's control. It happened. It was inexcusable. Not disagreeing there.

    But as Heath pointed out, normally he's able to suppress his desires. He likely had thoughts like "I wish I could beat Cecil just to show everyone and especially Rosa that he's not so great". Call it Honour, or morals, or whatever, I'm sure he was then quite capable of going "No, I shouldn't think like that, it's wrong" afterwards. Had Kain been able to leave Mist with Cecil after the earthquake, I doubt he would have betrayed him and Rosa of his own volition. It took Golbez to bring that out of him.

    As for Rydia, she was seven. I don't know many seven years old who would recover from PTSD as quickly as she did. Heck, I don't even know many adults who could.
    So basically, Kain constantly fighting against and suppressing his dark desires, and him fighting to redeem himself after giving into those dark desires is why people like him? I guess I understand now. I personally still hold Kain's traitorous actions against him a bit, but at least I can see where all the praise comes from.

    As for Rydia, I guess I am being a little harsh, but I suppose that's mostly from the excessive Rydia praising and Rosa bashing in the past. When I mentioned that Fire example, I was just stating that both Rosa and Rydia have their weak moments (I even mentioned the Desert Fever and kidnapping incident in my opening post). I suppose you're right that Rydia does grow a lot, overcoming her fear of fire and her mother's death. I still think people are a little too crazy about Rydia's hotness, though I appreciate her personality significantly more now that you guys explained it to me (even if she does turn down Edge a lot and doesn't try to get to know him, but I have my personal reasons for not liking that).

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