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Thread: Convince Me This Game Sucks

  1. #31
    Shlup's Retired Pimp Recognized Member Raistlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polnareff View Post
    The battle system alone ruins it for me. It's so slow...
    Just stop right there. That statement alone renders your entire opinion invalid. If FFXII's battle system, which for once requires no loading a separate screen to do battle, and does not even require you to take the time to select options, is "slow" for you, then you are doing it wrong. It is by far the fastest, sleekest battle system in the series.

    As to the OP, people just don't like change. The battle system bugs lazy people who don't want to take the time to figure out what they like. And even though the game does some things very well, it has some problems. The pacing of the story was absolutely awful, leaving the development entirely to 5-10 minute cutscenes separated by hours and hours of dungeon crawling. The summons were also useless.

    But it's still a good game. Despite not having a real world map, it's arguably the best FF for exploration. It's story and characters were also a welcome change of pace from the typical fantasy tropes.

  2. #32
    Bolivar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madonna View Post
    Vaan is an excellent way to start the story from the eyes of a person not initially in the know of all the intricacies at play, and Penelo is a great asset as a second character, unless you want to suggest that Vaan never had a friend in his life and should be unrealistically alone all of his life. How awkward would the story be if you had to take it directly from Ashe, Balthier, or Basch? All of these people, by the way, fill up time-proven classic roles in personality and initial gameplay.
    Amidst a thorough and insightful post, this is a point that needs to be emphasized. Vaan and Penelo fulfill a classic fantasy archetype: the everyday person who gets to view and react to the scenario on behalf of the reader, the viewer, or in our case, the player. They were well cast and well acted.

    It's not like some of the 2D Nintendo Final Fantasy's where the characters are both irrelevant and completely unrelatable.

  3. #33
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    Hey, not all the summons were useless! There were exactly three good ones!

  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raistlin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Polnareff View Post
    The battle system alone ruins it for me. It's so slow...
    Just stop right there. That statement alone renders your entire opinion invalid. If FFXII's battle system, which for once requires no loading a separate screen to do battle, and does not even require you to take the time to select options, is "slow" for you, then you are doing it wrong. It is by far the fastest, sleekest battle system in the series.

    As to the OP, people just don't like change. The battle system bugs lazy people who don't want to take the time to figure out what they like. And even though the game does some things very well, it has some problems. The pacing of the story was absolutely awful, leaving the development entirely to 5-10 minute cutscenes separated by hours and hours of dungeon crawling. The summons were also useless.

    But it's still a good game. Despite not having a real world map, it's arguably the best FF for exploration. It's story and characters were also a welcome change of pace from the typical fantasy tropes.

    I agree with Raist completely. However this is not a thread to say that it's awesome. I think people who feel the battle system is "slow" really seem to be confused. The system is incredibly fast, maybe not as fast as 13, but very fast paced. Their are points where the system was moving so fast I had to slow it down. Oh, and someone please feel free to insert a statement about how slow I am with games. Which, once someone gets that flame out of the way, know I've been gaming for years and am quite proficient (yes pat on the back).

    As with Raist, the pacing of the story is brutal. Their are long cut scenes followed by hours of crawling/grinding (couldn't have said it better myself). Some people feel that certain areas are weak (Sandsea being the big one, but to it's defense, I think it's perfectly created and realized. Why would a massive desert not be endless and desolate and exhausting. HEllo, it's a smurfing desert!)

    I found the summons to be very weak as well, and certainly didn't pack the punch they do in other games. They were pretty and were fun when you wanted to use them once or twice; but they were meaningless in the endgame.

    I also think a lack of character development for Penelo and Vaan (post beginning) is rough for some people.

    I, on the other hand, absolutely love FF12 and long to play it again.

  5. #35
    Fei Gone Wrong Polnareff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raistlin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Polnareff View Post
    The battle system alone ruins it for me. It's so slow...
    Just stop right there. That statement alone renders your entire opinion invalid. If FFXII's battle system, which for once requires no loading a separate screen to do battle, and does not even require you to take the time to select options, is "slow" for you, then you are doing it wrong. It is by far the fastest, sleekest battle system in the series.
    Yeah, it's slow as smurf. I mean, I'd gladly take, say, FFIX's battles over XII's any day, even though it's slow as smurf too. XII beats you over the head with how slow it is. Sure you fight the monsters right there on the field, but the gauge takes so long to fill up for you to attack that every fight that isn't against a monster that can die in one hit is just one long dragged-out snore-fest.

    It wasn't a problem in the other games because the gauges filled up faster, the attack animations completed faster, and on top of that the games were more linear. But if you take a more open-world game and slow the battles down to the point where you feel like you're losing brain cells, then yeah, it's no good.
    Xenogears is the tragic story of how your whole life can take a crappy turn, just because you happened to see a lady in a wedding dress before her wedding.

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  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polnareff View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Raistlin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Polnareff View Post
    The battle system alone ruins it for me. It's so slow...
    Just stop right there. That statement alone renders your entire opinion invalid. If FFXII's battle system, which for once requires no loading a separate screen to do battle, and does not even require you to take the time to select options, is "slow" for you, then you are doing it wrong. It is by far the fastest, sleekest battle system in the series.
    Yeah, it's slow as smurf. I mean, I'd gladly take, say, FFIX's battles over XII's any day, even though it's slow as smurf too. XII beats you over the head with how slow it is. Sure you fight the monsters right there on the field, but the gauge takes so long to fill up for you to attack that every fight that isn't against a monster that can die in one hit is just one long dragged-out snore-fest.

    It wasn't a problem in the other games because the gauges filled up faster, the attack animations completed faster, and on top of that the games were more linear. But if you take a more open-world game and slow the battles down to the point where you feel like you're losing brain cells, then yeah, it's no good.
    Pretty sure trolling.


    "... and so I close, realizing that perhaps the ending has not yet been written."


  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rostum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Polnareff View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Raistlin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Polnareff View Post
    The battle system alone ruins it for me. It's so slow...
    Just stop right there. That statement alone renders your entire opinion invalid. If FFXII's battle system, which for once requires no loading a separate screen to do battle, and does not even require you to take the time to select options, is "slow" for you, then you are doing it wrong. It is by far the fastest, sleekest battle system in the series.
    Yeah, it's slow as smurf. I mean, I'd gladly take, say, FFIX's battles over XII's any day, even though it's slow as smurf too. XII beats you over the head with how slow it is. Sure you fight the monsters right there on the field, but the gauge takes so long to fill up for you to attack that every fight that isn't against a monster that can die in one hit is just one long dragged-out snore-fest.

    It wasn't a problem in the other games because the gauges filled up faster, the attack animations completed faster, and on top of that the games were more linear. But if you take a more open-world game and slow the battles down to the point where you feel like you're losing brain cells, then yeah, it's no good.
    Pretty sure trolling.
    Pretty sure telling the truth more like.

  8. #38
    Zachie Chan Recognized Member Ouch!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolivar View Post
    Vaan and Penelo fulfill a classic fantasy archetype: the everyday person who gets to view and react to the scenario on behalf of the reader, the viewer, or in our case, the player. They were well cast and well acted.
    In fantasy or any narrative that features a distinctly "other" world, this archetype becomes useful as a means through which the reader, viewer, or player can observe a foreign world. The problem with Vaan and Penelo is not that they fulfill this archetype, it's that beyond the first ten hours of gameplay (and that's being generous), they serve no function in the plot beyond being the characters who walk up to the edge of the Sandsea all googly-eyed in wonder.

    Hobbits in Tolkien's The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings serve this same function. In their respective stories, they've never before left the Shire, and so whenever something needs to be explained about the world, it can be done so by the comparatively naive hobbits discussing it with more worldly characters. It's an effective way to explain the world through dialogue instead of huge blocks of expository paragraphs (although Tolkien did that anyway).

    The difference is that the hobbits become an important part of the story beyond merely serving as the eyes through which a reader views Middle Earth. But neither Vaan nor Penelo accomplish anything relevant to the story after the party reaches the Sandsea. Had the plot of the game been focused more acutely on characters rather than circumstance, it might have worked better. There might have been opportunity for interesting tension between Vaan and Basch over the death of Reks, a humorous mentor-apprentice relationship between Vaan and Balthier, or a greater focus on the divide between Vaan as a commoner and Ashe as royalty. While all these are teased early in the game, they're largely swept aside before the game even reaches its half way point. Vaan becomes sort of an awkward comic relief as the party's punching bag, but when you've already got Balthier spewing witty on-liners who really needs that? That said, the buck doesn't stop at Vaan and Penelo. Fran is equally inconsequential to the plot beyond her interaction with the other Viera--a role that could have easily been fulfilled by making her a guest party member. Which, now that I've spent so many words ranting about this, reminds me that half of the playable party has nearly no consequence to the story.

    What's worse is that they could have accomplished the same goal by playing up different aspects of other characters. For example, they could have used Ashe as the eyes through which the player saw the world. As royalty, it would make sense that while she has heard of a great many places, it would not make sense that she'd traveled the world extensively. Beyond that, she's been in hiding for four years, and likely that involves being holed up and apart from the world at large. Speaking of being holed up, Basch has been in a prison for how many years? Suddenly he's free and has to come to terms with how the world has changed and moved on in his absence. Meanwhile, Balthier--the sky pirate who has traveled the world--easily fulfills the role of the worldly character who can explain things.

    The bigger problem is that this archetype has become so used and abused that it is old hat to anyone who engages in fantasy or science fiction genres with any frequency. Quite frankly it's lazy and, to a degree, insulting. Plenty of books, movies, and games with large scope and original worlds avoid using this trope rather successfully. Given that Final Fantasy XII, in particular, is so ambitious in so many other ways, the inclusion of this type of character comes as something of a disappointment.

  9. #39
    Bolivar's Avatar
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    Ouch, not only is your point on the money, but it was delivered in such a well-written post that you've reduced me to "that guy" who keeps opening his mouth to retort, only to close it again and stop realizing that it's checkmate.

    The only thing I can really say is that I thought the characters were well-acted (I'm Captain Basch aside) and so relatable that I never had any qualms about their lack of personal story; I never had this particular qualm because it went unnoticed in my 3+ playthroughs.

    ALSO FRODO AT LEAST WAS KNOWLEDGEABLE ABOUT THE WORLD BECAUSE HE HAD BILBO'S STORIES AND TRANSLATIONS TO WORK OFF OF AND KNEW SOMETHINGS EVEN STRIDER DIDN'T!!!!!

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ouch! View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bolivar View Post
    Vaan and Penelo fulfill a classic fantasy archetype: the everyday person who gets to view and react to the scenario on behalf of the reader, the viewer, or in our case, the player. They were well cast and well acted.
    In fantasy or any narrative that features a distinctly "other" world, this archetype becomes useful as a means through which the reader, viewer, or player can observe a foreign world. The problem with Vaan and Penelo is not that they fulfill this archetype, it's that beyond the first ten hours of gameplay (and that's being generous), they serve no function in the plot beyond being the characters who walk up to the edge of the Sandsea all googly-eyed in wonder.

    Hobbits in Tolkien's The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings serve this same function. In their respective stories, they've never before left the Shire, and so whenever something needs to be explained about the world, it can be done so by the comparatively naive hobbits discussing it with more worldly characters. It's an effective way to explain the world through dialogue instead of huge blocks of expository paragraphs (although Tolkien did that anyway).

    The difference is that the hobbits become an important part of the story beyond merely serving as the eyes through which a reader views Middle Earth. But neither Vaan nor Penelo accomplish anything relevant to the story after the party reaches the Sandsea. Had the plot of the game been focused more acutely on characters rather than circumstance, it might have worked better. There might have been opportunity for interesting tension between Vaan and Basch over the death of Reks, a humorous mentor-apprentice relationship between Vaan and Balthier, or a greater focus on the divide between Vaan as a commoner and Ashe as royalty. While all these are teased early in the game, they're largely swept aside before the game even reaches its half way point. Vaan becomes sort of an awkward comic relief as the party's punching bag, but when you've already got Balthier spewing witty on-liners who really needs that? That said, the buck doesn't stop at Vaan and Penelo. Fran is equally inconsequential to the plot beyond her interaction with the other Viera--a role that could have easily been fulfilled by making her a guest party member. Which, now that I've spent so many words ranting about this, reminds me that half of the playable party has nearly no consequence to the story.

    What's worse is that they could have accomplished the same goal by playing up different aspects of other characters. For example, they could have used Ashe as the eyes through which the player saw the world. As royalty, it would make sense that while she has heard of a great many places, it would not make sense that she'd traveled the world extensively. Beyond that, she's been in hiding for four years, and likely that involves being holed up and apart from the world at large. Speaking of being holed up, Basch has been in a prison for how many years? Suddenly he's free and has to come to terms with how the world has changed and moved on in his absence. Meanwhile, Balthier--the sky pirate who has traveled the world--easily fulfills the role of the worldly character who can explain things.

    The bigger problem is that this archetype has become so used and abused that it is old hat to anyone who engages in fantasy or science fiction genres with any frequency. Quite frankly it's lazy and, to a degree, insulting. Plenty of books, movies, and games with large scope and original worlds avoid using this trope rather successfully. Given that Final Fantasy XII, in particular, is so ambitious in so many other ways, the inclusion of this type of character comes as something of a disappointment.
    Fantastic retort man. This is the type of read I can get behind, even though I'm a big FF12 fan. I think you hit the nail on the head and brought up some points I had never thought about before, just because I really enjoyed the gameplay.

    With everything you said, did you not enjoy the game or were you merely disappointed?

  11. #41
    Zachie Chan Recognized Member Ouch!'s Avatar
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    It's actually my second favorite game in the series behind Final Fantasy IX. I think it is one of the most well-imagined worlds that we've seen in the Final Fantasy series, and I absolutely loved the gameplay. Normally that the story is something of a weak point for the game would be a nail in the coffin for me, but FFXII still somehow manages to just excel so much at every other aspect that I'm willing to overlook the problems. And it's not that the story is in any way bad; rather, it's poorly paced which is doubly problematic because so much of the plot is focused on subtlety and intrigue. Because there's hours of dungeon crawling (through some pretty gorgeous landscapes!) between plot advancement, a lot of the story gets lost in between.

    Final Fantasy XII has more moral complexity than any other game in the series by far. Even our villains aren't bent on world destruction or domination--their goal is the liberation of humanity from the manipulation of the Occuria. In the end the group of heroes even ends up opposing the Occuria in their own way. It eschews the over-dramatic speeches about friendship and love (see: end of disc three of Final Fantasy VIII and the ending of Final Fantasy XIII) that permeate recent entries in the series in favor of complex motivations and actions from a number of different characters with varying objectives. Honestly, I feel that Final Fantasy XII is the best balance of traditional JRPG elements meeting with more progressive movements in the genre toward more mature and complex themes. Naturally, you will not be surprised to hear that I regard Final Fantasy XIII as a disappointing regression, especially because it spends such a great deal of time building toward the interesting moral dilemma of heroes savings themselves versus saving the world.

    That said, it's pretty clear that the game was originally imagined largely as revolving around Ashe, Balthier, and Basch. I would argue that most of the guest characters (notably Vossler and Larsa and arguably Reddas) are far more important to the overall narrative than Vaan, Penelo, or Fran. As much as I like Final Fantasy XII, I recognize that it had the potential to be so much better had a different direction not been forced upon them half way through development.

  12. #42
    Memento Mori Site Contributor Wolf Kanno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ouch! View Post
    It's actually my second favorite game in the series behind Final Fantasy IX. I think it is one of the most well-imagined worlds that we've seen in the Final Fantasy series, and I absolutely loved the gameplay. Normally that the story is something of a weak point for the game would be a nail in the coffin for me, but FFXII still somehow manages to just excel so much at every other aspect that I'm willing to overlook the problems. And it's not that the story is in any way bad; rather, it's poorly paced which is doubly problematic because so much of the plot is focused on subtlety and intrigue. Because there's hours of dungeon crawling (through some pretty gorgeous landscapes!) between plot advancement, a lot of the story gets lost in between.

    Final Fantasy XII has more moral complexity than any other game in the series by far. Even our villains aren't bent on world destruction or domination--their goal is the liberation of humanity from the manipulation of the Occuria. In the end the group of heroes even ends up opposing the Occuria in their own way. It eschews the over-dramatic speeches about friendship and love (see: end of disc three of Final Fantasy VIII and the ending of Final Fantasy XIII) that permeate recent entries in the series in favor of complex motivations and actions from a number of different characters with varying objectives. Honestly, I feel that Final Fantasy XII is the best balance of traditional JRPG elements meeting with more progressive movements in the genre toward more mature and complex themes. Naturally, you will not be surprised to hear that I regard Final Fantasy XIII as a disappointing regression, especially because it spends such a great deal of time building toward the interesting moral dilemma of heroes savings themselves versus saving the world.

    That said, it's pretty clear that the game was originally imagined largely as revolving around Ashe, Balthier, and Basch. I would argue that most of the guest characters (notably Vossler and Larsa and arguably Reddas) are far more important to the overall narrative than Vaan, Penelo, or Fran. As much as I like Final Fantasy XII, I recognize that it had the potential to be so much better had a different direction not been forced upon them half way through development.
    From what I've read, apparently, Vaan was purposely written as a non-entity because he was meant to be a player avatar. The original theme of the game was a "Dignified drama about the nobility of Ivalice through the eyes of a commoner". It's unknown how Matsuno would have accomplished this because he simply wrote a rough draft of the plot before he left the project and it was JunAkiyama and Daisuke Watanabe who came up with the idea of writing Vaan as simply an observer to the game's true protagonists of Lady Ashe, Balthier, and Basch. The goal was for the game not to follow previous FFs where the player became emotionally attached to the story of the characters but rather feel like they took part in the adventure with a group of real people (and I damn near quoted this statement).

    As for Fran and Penelo, where I agree they are not important to the issue o Vayne and the Occurians, Fran allows us to see into the world of one of the other races because their is subtle theme about the displacement of the Viera in the background of the story and this issue of the old traditions versus the new world and the idea of those who embrace this new world being considered exiles and cast-offs by their tribes. Penelo likewise serves as a tool for Ashe to grow as it's Penelo's relationship with Larsa that gives Ashe second thoughts about using the Nethicite against the Empire because Penelo represents a theme of resolving conflict and hatred through the hope of a new generation. Archades and Dalmasca's relationship is on the rocks now but future generations may find a means of seeing eye to eye, so her story, though small, does represent something significant to the overall plot.

    Other than that, I don't disagree with your observations but I wanted to point out something I read about the game's development to shed light on it.

  13. #43
    Zachie Chan Recognized Member Ouch!'s Avatar
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    I was under the impression that Matsuno was with the project longer than that, but maybe I'm wrong. Either way, the original purpose and intentions for the character are only important until the point of execution--which was botched pretty horribly.

    That said, while I understand that both Fran and Penelo had roles to play in the narrative, their time in the limelight was exceptionally brief. My complaint is that if a game is going to introduce guest characters as a mechanic, why do Penelo and Fran get prominent party roles when other, more important characters are relegated to brief appearances. It is because both Fran and Penelo have such prominent and visible roles as playable party members that expectations are raised for them. I'm not saying that they could stand to be eliminated from the game, but because their impact on story segments is few and far between, would it not make more sense that they, too, be guests? Their character need not change, but I would argue that if their presence was not constantly forced upon us, expectations for their to be constantly relevant would be greatly alleviated.

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    Memento Mori Site Contributor Wolf Kanno's Avatar
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    I don't disagree, but with that logic, we can make a case against a lot of characters in casts for RPGs because it's very difficult to keep all of them prominent throughout a 40+ hour game. The other issue is that the actual guest characters leave your party for story reasons whereas there is no actual reason to drop off Fran or Penelo from the party, maybe a case could be made for Penelo, but definetly not Fran.

  15. #45
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