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Thread: The Xenosaga Topic of 2013

  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by tony12 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by NeoCracker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by tony12 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by NeoCracker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by tony12 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by NeoCracker View Post
    No, I don't need to get over the text dump complaints. That was the games single worst aspect. The entire point of playing through a game is to experience the story, not be told it. This was exactly the same way the smurfed up in FF XIII, is rather then experiencing it, Barthadalous dumps about 60% of the games plot points on you at the very end.

    And even if you are playing a game for the story, the text dumps are still aweful. A story is more then just the plot. It's the characters reactions to it, the little events that lead up to the climaxes, the atmosphere of the different areas. Feelings and emotions that happen along the way, character developement.

    All of this is completely lost in the text dumps.

    And I know what the whole story of Xenosaga is about,I found they did an amazing job at wrapping everything up they had started. (Well, the Realins were kind of shafted by the end, which was sad.)

    I really don't see where that complaint is coming from.

    Edit: I admit it was troutty that Xenogears didn't have time to finish, as I think it would have turned out great otherwise. However, sad as it is, it didn't finish. They made the same mistake with Xenosaga, in that they tried to put to much into a game that just didn't have the time to finish properly.

    Your argument is irrelevent then. Even if you didn't like the text dumps the text dumps still gave you a good overall vision of what the entire story was supposed to be about. Xenosaga should of had text dumps instead of the 1/6th version that they ended up getting. I could understand your argument in a way if you were actually arguing in favor of a game that actually was more complete than Xenogears. But in no way shape or form was Xenosga more complete than Xenogears.

    If you think Xenosaga did a good job of wrapping everything up then you obviously don't have any clue what Xenosaga was originally supposed to be. You probably have never even heard of Perfect Works.
    Vaguely I know of Perfect works, I just don't care.

    And again, what Xenosaga was 'suppose to be' was irrelevant. Maybe it didn't end up the way it intended, I don't care. What I care about is what did happen. What I care about is what actually was released.

    And again, it doesn't matter if the text dumps serve as a good synapsis, because a synapsis will never surpass the story as intended with all of it's nuisances.

    All of these things that happened behind the scenes have little to no impact to me. It's intersting to learn about, I'll give you that. But in terms of game quality it's largely a pointless thing to bring up, and at best makes certain things forgivable. But it only covers for so much.
    Lol, you are just talking nonsense now. Your lack of knowledge about the Xeno franchise is really showing at this point. As someone who did play Xenogears and did read perfect works and know what Takahashi originally wanted to tell for Xenosaga I can tell you what ended up getting released is a hacked up incomplete version of what was originally intended.

    You, who doesn't seem to have any clue what was originally intended, are quite naive on this matter. But the reason most Xenogears fans have a hard time accepting Xenosaga as an equal to Xenogears is because they know what the story actually was. They know that Takahashi leaving Square and starting Monolith Soft was because he wanted to tell that full story. And quite frankly Xenosaga ended up being a piss poor hacked up version of that full story.
    Once again, I don't care what the original intent was. Why should I?

    I judge the game on it's own merits. And under that view, the games are great (Well, 2 isn't, but we've been over that. )

    No matter how much closer to the original intent Xenogears was to Xenosaga, that doesn't excuse any of it's problems either.
    Well don't care then. But that still doesn't change the fact that you are largely naive on the matter. Again the fact that you didn't know all that history probably helped you enjoy Xenosaga more. But for those that did know all that history that is a big reason why they think less of the Xenosaga series.
    Feel free to enjoy Xenosaga less because of that.

    However that in no way effects any of the merits of the actual game.

    Nor does it have any effect on any of the Merits of Xenogears for that matter.

  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by NeoCracker View Post
    Feel free to enjoy Xenosaga less because of that.

    However that in no way effects any of the merits of the actual game.

    Nor does it have any effect on any of the Merits of Xenogears for that matter.
    And I personally am glad for the text dumps and the fact that they made the decision to give the players an idea of what the full story was instead cutting the story all up like they did in Xenosaga. The reason Xenosaga even exists in the first place was to tell that full story. But it failed miserably at that.

  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by tony12 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by NeoCracker View Post
    Feel free to enjoy Xenosaga less because of that.

    However that in no way effects any of the merits of the actual game.

    Nor does it have any effect on any of the Merits of Xenogears for that matter.
    And I personally am glad for the text dumps and the fact that they made the decision to give the players an idea of what the full story was instead cutting the story all up like they did in Xenosaga.
    I still don't get the Idea that you don't have an Idea of the Xenosaga full story, really. The story they told was rather complete, or at least the story that was told, not so much what was originally intended.

    Xenosaga was, basically, the struggle against Wilhelm's plans. By games end, I fully understood what Wilhelm wanted to do, and why he did it. Hell, I could even sypmathise with him. I understood the nature of The Testamants, and why groups like The Cardinal Fleet, V-Tech, and Dmitri were all involved, as well as understanding all of their motivations and why they were nescessary to the plot.

    It may be vastly different from Takahada's original vision, but as a story on it's own, I don't see what was cut from the main plot. (Though again, some of the other elements of the worlds, like the Realian story, seemed saddly pushed to the side.)

    That may be the only thing that boggles me about what you are saying.

    Edit: Perhaps the problem here is the term 'Cut' doesn't really apply here, considering how much was probably altered entirely.

  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by NeoCracker View Post
    I still don't get the Idea that you don't have an Idea of the Xenosaga full story, really. The story they told was rather complete, or at least the story that was told, not so much what was originally intended.

    Xenosaga was, basically, the struggle against Wilhelm's plans. By games end, I fully understood what Wilhelm wanted to do, and why he did it. Hell, I could even sypmathise with him. I understood the nature of The Testamants, and why groups like The Cardinal Fleet, V-Tech, and Dmitri were all involved, as well as understanding all of their motivations and why they were nescessary to the plot.

    It may be vastly different from Takahada's original vision, but as a story on it's own, I don't see what was cut from the main plot. (Though again, some of the other elements of the worlds, like the Realian story, seemed saddly pushed to the side.)

    That may be the only thing that boggles me about what you are saying.

    Edit: Perhaps the problem here is the term 'Cut' doesn't really apply here, considering how much was probably altered entirely.
    Lol, you can accept Xenosaga if you want. You can always turn a blind eye to what it was originally meant to be and what it ended up being if you want to (again it is probably much easier for you to do this since you did not play Xenogears until recently and really don't have any clue what the full story of the Xeno franchise is supposed to be).

    However I do know what Xenosaga was supposed to be and everything it failed to accomplish. You can act as naive as you want to when it comes to Xenosaga but it still doesn't change the fact that Xenosaga in no way shape or form accomplished what it was created to do in the first place. If I didn't know all the history of the Xeno franchise I would of probably liked the Xenosaga series a lot more as well.

  5. #35

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    I don't think knowing what it was suppose to be really matters.

    Hell, I know what the third Lufia game was suppose to be, and god knows that in no way, shape, or form resembles that. Still was able to enjoy the game though, even knowing what it was originally intended to be in advance.

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by NeoCracker View Post
    I don't think knowing what it was suppose to be really matters.

    Hell, I know what the third Lufia game was suppose to be, and god knows that in no way, shape, or form resembles that. Still was able to enjoy the game though, even knowing what it was originally intended to be in advance.
    In Xenosaga's case yes it does matter because that is why Takahashi left Square and started Monolith Soft in the first place was to make the Episodes as told in Xenogears and Perfect Works because Square did not want to continue the series.

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by tony12 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by NeoCracker View Post
    I don't think knowing what it was suppose to be really matters.

    Hell, I know what the third Lufia game was suppose to be, and god knows that in no way, shape, or form resembles that. Still was able to enjoy the game though, even knowing what it was originally intended to be in advance.
    In Xenosaga's case yes it does matter because that is why Takahashi left Square and started Monolith Soft in the first place was to make the Episodes as told in Xenogears and Perfect Works because Square did not want to continue the series.
    I agree that it really sucks his Ideas never saw fruition. I always hate when creators aren't able to get their ideas out. Hell, I would love to see it the way he had intended. The guy clearly has talent, and it's really sad we may never see it. I already knew before playing episode 2 (But not before 1) that the game wasn't going to end up the way he wanted.

    Didn't stop me from loving 3, and still enjoying 2 regardless of it's flaws.

    Edit: Mind you, I didn't know WHAT it was intended to be, just that it wasn't going to happen.

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by NeoCracker View Post
    I agree that it really sucks his Ideas never saw fruition. I always hate when creators aren't able to get their ideas out. Hell, I would love to see it the way he had intended. The guy clearly has talent, and it's really sad we may never see it. I already knew before playing episode 2 (But not before 1) that the game wasn't going to end up the way he wanted.

    Didn't stop me from loving 3, and still enjoying 2 regardless of it's flaws.

    Edit: Mind you, I didn't know WHAT it was intended to be, just that it wasn't going to happen.
    Here is a link to Perfect Works that was translated by some guy into English. It was a 360 some page book but it was only written in Japanese. There was a website that gave all the main points of perfect works in much better fashion than this link does but it has long since been taken down.

    GameFAQs: Xenogears (PS) Perfect Works Translation Guide by int

    The links aren't completely the same because again Square owned the rights to Xenogears so they could not make a direct copy of Xenogears. But in anycase you can easily see that Xenosaga was meant to be a re-telling of Perfect Works.

  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by tony12 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by NeoCracker View Post
    I agree that it really sucks his Ideas never saw fruition. I always hate when creators aren't able to get their ideas out. Hell, I would love to see it the way he had intended. The guy clearly has talent, and it's really sad we may never see it. I already knew before playing episode 2 (But not before 1) that the game wasn't going to end up the way he wanted.

    Didn't stop me from loving 3, and still enjoying 2 regardless of it's flaws.

    Edit: Mind you, I didn't know WHAT it was intended to be, just that it wasn't going to happen.
    Here is a link to Perfect Works that was translated by some guy into English. It was a 360 some page book but it was only written in Japanese. There was a website that gave all the main points of perfect works in much better fashion than this link does but it has long since been taken down.

    GameFAQs: Xenogears (PS) Perfect Works Translation Guide by int

    The links aren't completely the same because again Square owned the rights to Xenogears so they could not make a direct copy of Xenogears. But in anycase you can easily see that Xenosaga was meant to be a re-telling of Perfect Works.
    I can't really be assed to read it right now, I am tired and unmotivated, but I might get around to it.

    I do want to point out though that Lufia is actually probably a better example then you gave it credit for.

    If you played those games, or at least Lufia 2, you may know that probably the single most important figure in those games is a guy by the name of Arek the Absolute, or Arekdeus, whichever you prefer. The third game was intended to finally reveal who this guy was, until the studio went under and they were bought by Taito. The game was made, but at no point does it offer any information on Arekdeus, or for that matter any real addition to the story established by 1 and 2. To this day, no one but the people who created the original games have any smurfing clue who Arek was.

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by NeoCracker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by tony12 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by NeoCracker View Post
    I agree that it really sucks his Ideas never saw fruition. I always hate when creators aren't able to get their ideas out. Hell, I would love to see it the way he had intended. The guy clearly has talent, and it's really sad we may never see it. I already knew before playing episode 2 (But not before 1) that the game wasn't going to end up the way he wanted.

    Didn't stop me from loving 3, and still enjoying 2 regardless of it's flaws.

    Edit: Mind you, I didn't know WHAT it was intended to be, just that it wasn't going to happen.
    Here is a link to Perfect Works that was translated by some guy into English. It was a 360 some page book but it was only written in Japanese. There was a website that gave all the main points of perfect works in much better fashion than this link does but it has long since been taken down.

    GameFAQs: Xenogears (PS) Perfect Works Translation Guide by int

    The links aren't completely the same because again Square owned the rights to Xenogears so they could not make a direct copy of Xenogears. But in anycase you can easily see that Xenosaga was meant to be a re-telling of Perfect Works.
    I can't really be assed to read it right now, I am tired and unmotivated, but I might get around to it.

    I do want to point out though that Lufia is actually probably a better example then you gave it credit for.

    If you played those games, or at least Lufia 2, you may know that probably the single most important figure in those games is a guy by the name of Arek the Absolute, or Arekdeus, whichever you prefer. The third game was intended to finally reveal who this guy was, until the studio went under and they were bought by Taito. The game was made, but at no point does it offer any information on Arekdeus, or for that matter any real addition to the story established by 1 and 2. To this day, no one but the people who created the original games have any smurfing clue who Arek was.
    Never played Lufia and infact I hardly ever play video games anymore at all. I just enjoy occasionally talking about games back from the days when I did play games.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony12 View Post
    Lol, you can accept Xenosaga if you want. You can always turn a blind eye to what it was originally meant to be and what it ended up being if you want to (again it is probably much easier for you to do this since you did not play Xenogears until recently and really don't have any clue what the full story of the Xeno franchise is supposed to be).

    However I do know what Xenosaga was supposed to be and everything it failed to accomplish. You can act as naive as you want to when it comes to Xenosaga but it still doesn't change the fact that Xenosaga in no way shape or form accomplished what it was created to do in the first place. If I didn't know all the history of the Xeno franchise I would of probably liked the Xenosaga series a lot more as well.
    You think it's naive to accept something for what it actually is, rather than complaining about what it could have been? Really?

    It does annoy me a lot that the series didn't turn out as originally intended. But the end product is what matters, not what could have been if reality looked differently. If a game turns out good, but not as what you expected or wanted, you can pretend that the game is bad and miss out on an enjoyable gaming experience if you'd rather do that. But accepting the game for being good on its own the way it is, even though it didn't turn out like intended, is hardly naive or "turning a blind eye" on something.

  12. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultima Shadow View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by tony12 View Post
    Lol, you can accept Xenosaga if you want. You can always turn a blind eye to what it was originally meant to be and what it ended up being if you want to (again it is probably much easier for you to do this since you did not play Xenogears until recently and really don't have any clue what the full story of the Xeno franchise is supposed to be).

    However I do know what Xenosaga was supposed to be and everything it failed to accomplish. You can act as naive as you want to when it comes to Xenosaga but it still doesn't change the fact that Xenosaga in no way shape or form accomplished what it was created to do in the first place. If I didn't know all the history of the Xeno franchise I would of probably liked the Xenosaga series a lot more as well.
    You think it's naive to accept something for what it actually is, rather than complaining about what it could have been? Really?

    It does annoy me a lot that the series didn't turn out as originally intended. But the end product is what matters, not what could have been if reality looked differently. If a game turns out good, but not as what you expected or wanted, you can pretend that the game is bad and miss out on an enjoyable gaming experience if you'd rather do that. But accepting the game for being good on its own the way it is, even though it didn't turn out like intended, is hardly naive or "turning a blind eye" on something.
    You know I think NeoCracker may have had a better argument if he/she wasn't trying to defens Xenosaga and instead was trying to defend a game that truly was a complete game. NeoCracker was constantly bashing the text dumps without having any clue whatsoever what the purpose of the text dumps were for and also not having any clue whatsoever how incomplete of a series Xenosaga ended up being.

    I'll say it again. The only reason Xenosaga exists at all was so it could tell the story of perfect works. It doesn't exist so it could tell some hacked up version that took three games to only tell the story of one episode.
    Last edited by tony12; 12-27-2012 at 12:58 AM.

  13. #43

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    I dunno about that. This might serve as informative and interesting reading for everyone.

    The History of Xenogears and Xenosaga (Part 1)

  14. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover View Post
    I dunno about that. This might serve as informative and interesting reading for everyone.

    The History of Xenogears and Xenosaga (Part 1)
    Goodness gracious. Whoever wrote all that up sure spent a lot of time looking all that stuff up.

    It looks like Xenosaga was originally supposed to have three two game arcs instead of six one game arcs.

    Maybe they should have just made Xenosaga for the PS1. PS1 games were still being sold on shelves around that time and it wouldn't of been nearly as expensive for them to make and they would have financially been able to keep their original plans for the series.

  15. #45

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    The Xenosaga Topic of 2013 is dangerously close to dying before 2013.

    Let me inject some life into the game via my obnoxious opinions.

    I liked Shion in Episode 1. I felt she was an interesting female lead and all the cryptic foreshadowing of her past really intrigued me.

    True, that backstory turned out to be quite good in 3 but Shion also completely collapsed into a co-dependent blob of unlikability.

    And just look what they did to her design!


    Shion actually had a sort of sensible outfit for the first game when you compare it to most JRPGs. By 3 though she's opted to wear shorts with no zipper so you can see her panties.

    And where is her ass? She had a really big one in the first game. I'm sorry to be crude but I like what I like.

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