The greatest games - A Personal list of Neocracker~

[NeoCracker]

Rather curious If I'll have the care left to argue with Wolf by the time he gets back to this though.

[Scotty_ffgamer]

I would like to say that I do actually Dirge of Cerberus. By no means should it be #1 on anyone's list, but I thought it was a lot of fun. That is all I can really ask from a game. VII doesn't have as much nostalgic value to me as other people though, and so it doesn't really bother me that some of these games don't measure up to VII.

[NeoCracker]

Honestly I never even played Dirge.

[Skyblade]

I'm still not sure about Persona 4 being above Persona 3. While the game is phenomenal, especially in P4Golden, it misses a couple of things that I absolutely love about P3.

Perhaps most important to me is the scale of the conflict. One of the important foci of the series is the war, the battle of the nature of man, the conflict between Nyarlathotep and Philemon, and all they represent. And, as the reference drawn from Lovecraft's works might suggest, the scale of this conflict is immense. And Persona 4 fails to capture that.

In Persona 3, the characters are fighting a battle that is only a fragment of a much larger war, and even then, they are in over their head. They're struggling to hold on, and continue to do so even as they face forces beyond comprehension, forces so primal that they merely exist and cannot be destroyed or stopped.

This conflict exists in Persona 4, but the characters are never a part of it. They are secluded, living in their own little world. They know the monsters exist, but they never realize what they're a part of. Persona 4 has a very human story. The conflicts, growths, interactions, and victories are almost all on a simple, human scale. It's a good story, but limited.

Persona 4's characters grow and live on their own terms, at their own pace. Everything about it is natural. Take the Ultimate Persona events. They are a result of each character coming to terms with their selves and their flaws in their own time. Now look at Persona 3's. Each character's change is forced upon them, wrought by the conflict they partake in. The characters don't grow up naturally, they are forced to grow, in order to try to meet the impossible challenges faced upon them.

The events of Persona 3, even the mere knowledge of the events, changes the lives of the characters immensely. When Mitsuru sees Shadows attacking her father and Awakens to her Persona, her life is shattered forever. And this Awakening continues with each character. After their victory in Persona 3, where did they go? They establish a taskforce to fight a war that they know is nowhere near done. What does the Investigation Team do? Go back to life as usual, going to school and continuing with their jobs.

The Investigation Team never undergoes the Awakening that SEES does in Persona 3. They never realize the scale of what they have tapped into, the scope of the war. Part of what I love about Persona 4 Arena is that this moment seems to finally come in that story, when the forces manipulating Labrys, and the power and scope of SEES's abilities clue them in that there is much more going on than they previously thought, and that they can't ignore it.

But in Persona 4, that aspect of it is missing. Even when they face the final conflicts, and start to uncover the nature of the mysteries that have beset them, they never discover that conflict, and I feel the story suffers for it.




While I'm at it, I'd like to mention that I think Persona 3 has a better choice of atmosphere. Though it ties in with the conflict troubles mentioned above, its near perfect balancing of hope and despair make it one of the best themed works I've ever encountered.


Oh, and while Persona 4 has Naoto, who's awesome, Persona 3 has Aigis, who's even more awesome.




Also, NeoCracker, I think you missed the point of the Video Game world. (SPOILER)The characters not picking up that Mitsuo wasn't the real killer wasn't a setup for Naoto to seem extremely intelligent. It wasn't a setup for the characters at all. It was a setup for the players. It was meant to be a blatantly obvious red herring, to get people thinking that the fakeouts were finished with, and make the real red herring, Namatame, harder to figure out. They did sell it a little too much, but that was part of the objective, they wanted everyone to figure out it wasn't Mitsuo.



Oh, and Dirge of Cerberus is an okay game. It has some huge problems, with both lore and gameplay, but it is still a fun game. Nowhere near the top of any list though.

[NeoCracker]

The problem with pretty much all of your criticisms is they are purely subjective, and more have to do with what kind of story you prefer rather then any problem on the part of P4 in particular.

And change was forced upon the PC's of P4, they were dragged against thier will (A couple exceptions of course) when forced to accept different parts of themselves. The following step isn't forced upon them, but I kind of like that about it. While the realization was forced, it was soley their decision to act upon it. There was no obligation on thier part, just a desire to move forward.

And trust me, I didn't miss the point. There were a lot of points to it, and it doesn't change the fact they way they went about it was to make the PC's hold one of the biggest idiot balls I have ever seen. (SPOILER)A red herring doesn't work when the player knows it's blatantly not the case. All it does is serve to frustrate the player at the PC's blatent stupidity. And yes, it was in part to sell Naoto's intelligence. It showed her able to figure out something the PC's were completely unable too. Though regardless, all objectives were achievable without them being morons.

[Skyblade]

Ah, don't worry, I was just gushing a bit. It's just why I can't rate P4 over P3.

You did cover pretty much everything that isn't subjective though. P4 did a lot more things technically better. Except for physical attacks (which I just don't get, what was wrong with 3 types?).

[Ultima Shadow]

"Ohhh... Persona 4 was the number one
favourite? I could never have guessed!"

"Indeed. What an unexpected revelation!"












"Oh give Neo a break. It's not
like everyone knew about it.

While Persona 4 might not be my personal number 1 game, it still comes pretty close to that and is most certainly in my top 5. People who hasn't played it, are missing out on a real masterpiece.

The Xenosaga series, save Xenosaga 2, would also have a pretty similar placement. Despite many things going different than planned for the series, it turned out as one of the best and most memorable RPG series I've ever played.

[Loony BoB]

I put together a top 100 of my own recently. It's really tricky once you get to around #10 onwards, at least for me. And for the last ten it was definitely a case of "best of the rest", where I tried to remember how much fun I had playing different games when I was around eight. Trying to figure out which I enjoyed most out of Crystal Caves, Commander Keen and so on. xD

[Rostum]

I put together a top 100 of my own recently. It's really tricky once you get to around #10 onwards, at least for me. And for the last ten it was definitely a case of "best of the rest", where I tried to remember how much fun I had playing different games when I was around eight. Trying to figure out which I enjoyed most out of Crystal Caves, Commander Keen and so on. xD

You've played 100 games?! This'll be interesting.

[Loony BoB]

I put together a top 100 of my own recently. It's really tricky once you get to around #10 onwards, at least for me. And for the last ten it was definitely a case of "best of the rest", where I tried to remember how much fun I had playing different games when I was around eight. Trying to figure out which I enjoyed most out of Crystal Caves, Commander Keen and so on. xD

You've played 100 games?! This'll be interesting.

I've been playing video games since I was about four or five. I've probably played, at a rough estimate, around 200-300 games... I guess? Maybe more. Hard to say because of how easy it was to get shareware games back in the day.

[Ultima Shadow]

You plan to make a thread like this as well? Looking forward to seeing how many of your top 100 that Neo has never played in that case.

[Loony BoB]

I don't know if I will, really. But it's nice to know that I can if I can be arsed... xD I want to finish playing FFIX first, since I think it will make the list.

[Slothy]

I've been playing video games since I was about four or five. I've probably played, at a rough estimate, around 200-300 games... I guess? Maybe more. Hard to say because of how easy it was to get shareware games back in the day.

Is that all?

[Loony BoB]

Well, I got to something like 220 when trying to list all the games I'd played so I could start ordering them. But listing all the games I've played is really tricky when there is no way for me to get the list together outside of my own memory. I haven't played as many games in recent years as I did when I was a kid - I simply can't afford it, nor do I have the time to invest in so many games when so many of them demand such a large amount of time (FFXIV, Football Manager series, Dwarf Fortress, etc) if you want to get the full 'feel' of them.

[Wolf Kanno]

[QUOTE=NeoCracker;3237122]12. Breath of Fire 2 (SNES)

I'm going to give it to nostalgia for this being ranked so high cause there is no way this game was better than BoFIII-V. Better than BoF1? Hell yeah, an ingenious and overlooked 16-bit classic? I'll certainly agree it was ahead of its time in its thinking (execution is another story) but no way I can agree this is better than BoFIII.

Onto your post.

Ryu Vs. Fei - Okay I will start by saying Ryu was handled wonderfully for a silent character. You got a real feel for the guys personality and strength. But, in the end, I’m giving this to Xenogears. Fei was handled marvelously, and my dislike for the game won’t take away from the fact he was one of the best written leads of any RPG. Even if he was kind of an idiot.

I can't really disagree with anything said here except that this was never a fair comparison because of the way both games were written. Xenogears is Fei"s story and he's a central figure the game focuses on whereas Ryu is a silent protagonist who is suppose to represent the player. What I will say is that Ryu in BoFII shows that a silent protagonist doesn't have to be void of personality and in truth all of the Ryu's in BoF possess unique qualities that make them interesting and feel less like player characters and more like an entity you interact with the world through. Very few games do this well and I will commend Capcom for that.

Rand Vs. Bart - This pair was picked because both characters have the most arcs in the game devoted to their story. There’s the initial arc, an arc that shows up around the middle, and then a finish at the end. In terms of devoted time, they probably have the most of any side character in their respective games, and is one of the better handled ones in each as well.

However, this one goes to Rand for me. The reason being is by the end of Bart’s arc, I didn’t feel I really learned more about what kind of person he was. All of his motivations pretty much made sense by the end of his first arc of story. Rand seems to both grow more as a character, and become more complex as time goes on with his arc, as well as a much more emotional ending at the Church of St. Eva.

I will disagree largely because I can't even remember what Rand's story even was, largely because it was never important to the main quest whereas Bart's story is important and has far reaching effects. I like Rand, but his story never really impressed me and I even had to look it up because I don't remember much of it. I would have paired Bart up with Sten personally because to me, Rand doesn't have much to say or do with the world or story whereas Bart's conflict largely helps get Fei involved with what going on in the world and it ultimately leads to revelations about the war 500 years ago and Shevat. Rand... is just running away from his mum. To me this isn't even a contest. Bart is a better character and his story is far more important to to the overall plot. Rand's story is a diversion on the way to the big bad, Bart's story is part of the plot of the actual game because it affects so many people and is tied to many events.

Nina Vs. Elly: I’ll start by saying Elly had some good arcs and premises with her character, and for the most part it was very well handled. That was, until, Disk two happened. We never get to see how she rose to be the hope of all those people, we are just told ‘it totally happened’. That seemed to be the big pay off her arc was building towards, and it’s another thing the games unfortunate cut’s dropped.

I am not going to disagree here. I agree that Elly's story never quite reaches a satisfying conclusion and I feel her story arc being cut was a bigger blow than having Rico's story ignored, but also because Nina from BoFII is debatably one of the most well developed in the series except for BoFV's and her story is pretty emotional. Elly is certainly a better written character and I feel she is a bit more multidimensional than Nina but this is an issue of technology rather that writing skill.

Bow Vs. Billy: This was paired because the plight of both characters served more to expose the problems that were plaguing the world around you. Billy’s exposed the church, Bow’s exposed there was even something going on at all.

Just in terms of how well that was executed, it goes to Bow. I love how his opening bit started so much more, and grew from that, even if he wasn’t really involved. Billy’s did an alright job, but when you learn the church on a whole is a front, it’s pretty much immediately destroyed by Solaris.

In terms of pay off, you have Bow finishing his work with Trout, the story that got him into the mess in the first place, and then rejoining the group now that he realizes the extent of the problem. Comparably Billy was firing his dad. Now, this could have been a close call, except for once again Xenogears kills the moment. When it starts setting in that the attack should actually have killed Billy’s dad, he just walks in and goes, ‘oh I’m fine, I fixed that quirk a while ago.’ The game litterly goes, ‘He’s dead......NOT!’ in the span of 1-2 minutes.

Point for this one goes to Bow.

I disagree largely because Bow isn't really a part of any of it. He starts you on the quest and then plays nursemaid for your town until you finally prove his innocence whereas Billy's story is actually about him growing as a character, exploring the Ethos organization, introducing the Wells and dealing with his conflict with his father. While I agree the final segment is really silly on Xenogears part and anti-climatic, Bow is just a non-entity for most of the game and once he joins he contributes nothing. Not only that but despite its painful execution, there is a real sense of character development with Billy whereas Bow is largely an asshole in the beginning and then a silent asshole afterwards so I completely disagree because Bow's story arc is more about the overall story than who he is and he doesn't really come away from it all any different from how it started, just being a trouble maker that Ryu has to bail out. The gnarm of Jesiah's supposed sacrifice just didn't bother me, but Bow was always a user and I could care less about saving him.

Sparr Vs. Esmarelda: Both of these characters have pretty short arcs, Esmeralda more so then Sparr. This pair was chosen both for this, and the purpose they serve. Not really to expose the problem, but the source causing the Problem. Sparr the Demon sucking life and his origins, and Esmarelda the Nano-Tech that the villain was going to use.

The thing is, assuming Krellian never handed Esmeralda over to you, which wasn’t necessary, what changes? You learn about the machines from Gaspard anyway. Your character already had flashbacks to previous lives, so Esmeralda wasn’t necessary for that. Her inclusion in the story is completely pointless.

Compared to Sparr, while minimal, at least feels relevant to reveal something about the plot. So This goes to Spar.

I disagree because Esmerelda is central to Kim's story, while she certainly has her plot significance about nano-machines, her personal story is really about exploring Kim's past and I like the idea of Fei's past incarnations having physical effects in the present timeline. Esmerelda was great because through her, we got to explore the themes a couple who can't have a child and the moral issue of science being used for good or evil depending on the person with Kim creating Esmerelda, not just as a surrogate daughter, but also as the hope to restore the fledgling human race from its own self destruction and instead we watch Elly and Kim gun down by a government hoping to use her for war purposes. Sparr? involves an obnoxious quest, and you get to talk to a tree who tells you exactly what you already had been figuring out from every badguy you bitch slapped to get to this point. Sparr is kind of a redundant character and I actually like the guy cause he was an interesting concept but dude, seriously, he is a powerful fighter and can communicate with nature and the crutch of his arc is me rescuing him from a traveling circus... I'll take the nano-colony surrogate child who is created to save mankind thank you very much.

Jean Vs. Rico: While I like Jean, Rico is the better character. That being said, I give this one to BoF as well, for actually Resolving the Jean story. And it was fairly funny.

I'd say this is a draw, Rico certainyl got shafted but the game gave you enough info to figure out what was goign on. Jean and his entire story arc was just silly and redundant, feeling more like a sidequest than something relevant to the story and at least Rico is decent in combat whereas Jean has to make use of the game mechanics to make him good and said system is better served n a character who is already good to begin with like Katt or Nina. I dread Jean's story arc because its mostly silly nonsense that does little to really expand the plot.

Katt Vs. Maria: Okay, as a character I love Katt, and her introduction was handled wonderfully, but her arc later was pretty damn lame and badly handled. Maria had a decent intro arc, but for her that was it. So for both quantity of story, and quality of at least the initial arc, Katt wins.

Though even if Maria had more, one thing murdered her arc for me. That thing was Pupu. She’s scared to go out and face the man before her, even though she is the only one who can, and what happens? The comic side relief bunny grows to giant robot size and starts fighting.

Any drama was shot the smurf down.

Katt's story arc is short simple and says little about her as a character. Maria's story arc actually watches her grow into a character and features one of the game's really cool sequences and nice giant robot shout outs. I also don't mind the Chu-Chu thing because A) PuPu never bothered me,and B) I really like the symbolism of a guy arguing that man machine interface is the future evolution of all species get the smackdown from a "low-level" lifeform like Chu-Chu. Chu-Chu is a silly character but I honestly felt the sequence was handles better and once again like the Billy arc, I'm going to point out that Xenogears is better because Maria's arc actually involves her growing as a character whereas Katt's arc is an excuse plot to explian why she's there and she has no real character growth in it. Katt gets saved from a underhanded deal. Maria finally confronts her past concerning her father and the horrific revelation of Siezben's connection to the Wells and Solaris. Once again her story arc not only advances her as a character but explains more about the story overall.

Citan Vs. Sten: Okay, I like Sten and while his intro to the party was bad, his actual arc at highland was very well done and great. But this just isn’t smurfing fair. Citan’s a smurfing boss.

This one isn't much of a contest, I never liked Sten and I actually don't care for the Highland story arc but I'll agree it was handled pretty well. Citan is just a great character and its hard to really make a comparison with anyone from BoFII. Not a fair mash-up.

Overall, my issue with BoFII's "character arcs" in comparison to Xenogears is that Xenogears arc have the added benefit of actually moving the main storyline along and revealing more about the world whereas BoFII's are mostly isolated incidents that often have little bearing on the story. My one issue with BoFII's story was always the fact that the game really liked to derail you from the overall objective for long character arcs like Sten and Jean's. The issue here is that I could remove most of BoFII's cast and it would not dramatically effect the game whereas the character arcs in Xenogears are tied to the plot and world so removing them would greatly damage Xenogears narrative. So to me, this is no real contest.

I do disagree with P4 but I'll get to that later.