Final Fantasy Sexism Part II: The Early Years of Gender Roles

[NeoCracker]

I would say being Protective of them. Mind you, these guys should know by now how useful the ladies are, I mean for smurf sakes Rydia summons god like beings to aid them.

But yeah, a bit sexist either way there.

[Mirage]

I'm going to take your challenge Lez and find the last time a male needed to be rescued in a Final Fantasy game.

I'll be back.

you might have to define exactly, what you mean as off top of my head these could fit:
Strago WOR FF6
not physically but you have to rescue cloud from his melt down in 7
Laguna in FF8
in FFX tidus is rescued in the opening scene by auron & then 15mins later by Rikku
in FFX-2, the party rescues numerous men (i.e. the chocobo idiot, kamarhi)

Well god damn you, I wanted to do this myself .

Maybe I can find more instances though. However, many of these examples are from after the era this article covers.

In FF5, I am pretty sure you have to save Cid and his grandson Mid several times. I also think both the main character dude and the two girls in the party gets mind controlled by Siren, and the only reason Galuf can make them snap out of it is because he is amnesiac and doesn't recognize the fake images Siren conjures up to control them with.

I'm also not entirely sure, but I can't remember Krile needing any saving in FF5 either.

Maybe my memory fails me, but I can't think of a whole lot of woman-saving in that game. Lenna gets saved once at the beginning of the game, and I think she and Bartz gets stuck in the antlion cave in world three, where Faris ends up saving them both.

At the end of the game, you also end up with three times as many females in your party as males. It might be interesting to note that the previous generation of heroes in FF5 (the warriors of dawn) were all men, but your party, who represents the new generation (the warriors of light), are mostly women.

All in all, I think FF5 does a pretty darned good job. It is probably among the best for gender equality at the time it was released.


As for FF6 and Terra and Setzer. Both suffers a kind of a mental breakdown. Even if it might be "stereotypical", Terra is the only one of those two who turns that into something constructive. Setzer is the one who got the short straw here. He ends up an ex-gambler dude who is stuck drinking his sorrows away at a bar, while Terra actually does something good for the world, even when things were looking as grim as they were. It definitely sounds like she's the mentally strongest of the two.

[Raistlin]

Oh boy, here we go. First off, thanks for all the feedback!

Low strength, yes, but keep in mind that Terra can equip heavy armors, swords, and shields. Those are Knight equips. Not weak little magic user equips. So she’s statistically more magical than physical? Well yeah, she’s half Esper. It makes sense. If she were a man, it would be the same.

Yeah, FFVI's actual damage output is more based on equipment than the strength stat, making most of the party fairly useful. But, given the context of the game, don't you think it's at least notable that the Super Soldier Terra has a lower strength stat than the human males? Again, it's not something that's terrible by itself, but together with other things shows that the writers made some of these decisions based on gender stereotypes.

Here’s the thing. You chose strength as a primary basis for the sexism in the game...

I did not intend to. Obviously most women in real life are less physically strong than most men (though also most men can't blow things up with magic, so games are fully capable of changing things around in this respect). How physically-oriented a female character is can be one factor to consider, along with everything else.

And I fully admit that FFVI is a significant improvement overall. Note that I did not need to do much analysis to point out how Rosa, for example, is based on sexist tropes. And then look at how deep I had to delve into Terra's and Celes's characters and psychology to point out problems with them (and really the subject warrants going deeper, but I was constrained by space).

Faris is a great female character, is completely atypical, and a good example of a non-sexist girl character in the FF universe. The fact that she has to act like a man has nothing to do with her as a character and everything to do with the world she lives in. Do you fault homosexuals who feel they need to act heterosexual around their families because their families won’t accept them otherwise? The Faris story recognizes that the world forces people into gender roles. It’s really no different whatsoever than what you’re doing now in writing about sexism. You’re pointing out sexism in a video game, which reflects on the sexism in society. The Faris character points out sexism in the FFIV world, which reflects on sexism in society.

This is a reasonably debatable point, but I did not see Faris as a criticism of sexism. To put a comparison in here that I mentioned earlier, Game of Thrones's Arya and Brienne are clearly critiques of a sexist, male-dominated culture. I did not get that same message from Faris, though admittedly it's been a while since I saved the game. Instead, the choice to make Faris that way seems to emphasize that male-dominated roles, such as pirates, are male-dominated.

And, like Faris, despite being a physical fighter, Celes’s appearance and attire are still distinctly feminine, unlike more modern and consistent mold-breakers like Game of Thrones’s Brienne.

Sooo, strong women have to be ugly brutes? How is this a superior way of looking at things? [/quote]

I did not say that, and at this retort seems very pedantic. My comment was focused on her entire appearance, including her attire, and how she carried herself. Obviously it's unlikely that main characters are going to be made ugly, but there are plenty of non-ugly ways for a woman too look and dress and act that aren't stereotypically feminine. Some of the later games actually do a good job with this, but I won't spoil my future articles.

Celes does have to be rescued, I’ll grant that (as does Terra and Relm both) although I don’t think it quite fully fits the “damsel in distress” mold. She’s not whiny about it. She remains tough throughout and doesn’t break. She’s not in that position because she’s weak. Quite the opposite actually, it’s because she’s defiant, her own person.

Celes does not fit the damsel in distress model. It's just somewhat notable, in the overall picture, that the writers chose the woman to need rescuing.

And Terra’s not the only character in FF with emotional issues. Cyan is at least as emotionally dependant and unstable as Terra, if not more so. Sabin’s a peppy overly-zealous character, and the game even hints at Relm and Sabin having very similar playful peppy personalities. Shadow is the silent, brooding type, but there’s no connection there to gender, it’s because of his past. He wasn’t always that way, but became so because of his history. Edgar’s a philanderer, but the game makes fun of him for it. It’s not shown to be positive, it’s not sensationalized.

For example, it would be blind and hypocritical to see Locke’s nurturing devotion to Rachel in a different way than Terra’s nurturing devotion to the children of Mobliz, or Celes’ nurturing devotion to Cid. And what does Terra figure out in the end? That she has to FIGHT for the kids. That she can kick Phunbaba’s ass.

Because FFVI is a well-written game, pretty much all of the characters have some sort of issue. But the type of emotional issues Terra has, especially how she expresses it, is a sexist stereotype. Taking care of and nurturing children is one of the classic gender roles for women.

Again, it's not obnoxiously sexist by itself -- but it's notable that, out of all the characters in FFVI, a woman was chosen for that part. You seem to be viewing these characters in a vacuum instead of in the context of the series, which may be part of your trouble in understanding what I'm trying to say.

It’s too easy sometimes to blame things on gender. Let’s play FFVI shuffle for a moment. Gau’s a boy, but if he were a girl exactly the same in every way to the male version, we’d complain about her being half-naked and sexualized, or that she’s crazy and annoying. If Shadow were a woman, we’d call her a bitch for acting the same way Shadow does now as a man. If Edgar were a female version of himself, his philandering would be whoring. AND CLAIM ALL THE WHILE THAT THESE ARE ALL EXAMPLES OF SEXISM. When they’re clearly not. No matter what a female character does, no matter how she acts or dresses, there will be ways to declaim aspects of her character as sexist.

This is a good point, though I disagree that most of those characters would be sexist as women (and I have not even used such arguments like those against other women characters, though I will note that Lightning was often derided, and not by feminists, for being "bitchy"), which is why I think it's important to view these examples of sexism in the aggregate instead of in isolation. Viewed as a whole, it's easier to see how some sexist tropes are repeatedly used.

However, as an actual response, FF VI actually leaves the most emotional based arc, at least prior to the child thing in WoR, belonged to Locke. Hell, pretty much all of his actions are a result of his emotianal attachment to Rachel. So not only were his actions very Emotional in nature, he was able to even overcome his grief and move on, regardless of all his efforts inevitably proving worthless after all these years. So he is both emotional in action, and possess a great amount of emotional strength.

As I said to choinos, pretty much every well-developed character ever has some emotional issues. Locke was a good example of a non-stereotypical male character, although love has always been a common motivator for men (otherwise there would be no damsel in distress trope). My point was not that Terra and Celes has emotional issues by itself, but the sort of situations those issues put themselves in are stereotypically feminine. Terra is an easier example of this, where she regains her will to fight by love of children whom she had been taking care of.

I agree with you that FFVI was an improvement overall.

What are your opinions on Cecil telling Rosa and Rydia to get off the Airship before the final battle ? Being protective of them ? Or just females = weak ?

By itself, it's easily justified by Cecil being protective. But it does clearly fit the gender role stereotype of men protecting women, especially given the context of the rest of the game.

All in all, I think FF5 does a pretty darned good job. It is probably among the best for gender equality at the time it was released.

Considering the games that came before it, that's probably true. Not that that's saying much.

As for FF6 and Terra and Setzer. Both suffers a kind of a mental breakdown. Even if it might be "stereotypical", Terra is the only one of those two who turns that into something constructive. Setzer is the one who got the short straw here. He ends up an ex-gambler dude who is stuck drinking his sorrows away at a bar, while Terra actually does something good for the world, even when things were looking as grim as they were. It definitely sounds like she's the mentally strongest of the two.

See my responses to choinos and NeoCracker on this subject.

[Mirage]

All in all, I think FF5 does a pretty darned good job. It is probably among the best for gender equality at the time it was released.

Considering the games that came before it, that's probably true. Not that that's saying much.

Actually, I think it is saying quite a bit. These types of changes often tend to come slowly and steadily, and FF5 did kind of progress at a faster rate than what had been seen before. I think the influence and importance of females improved a substantial amount from 4 to 5, and I really don't think any more than one out of the three females exhibit a significant amount of traditional stereotypes, and when she does, isn't exactly a very important part of the story either.

Neither of the princesses of Tycoon are the type who is content with a typical princess-role. They are both adventurous, resourceful and pretty physically capable, One of them is even the boss of a dozen pirates, and I think it is safe to say that pirates aren't the easiest bunch to boss around in the world.

Oh yeah, none of them are really love interests for the males in the party either. I mean obviously Galuf and Bartz thought Faris was pretty, but it stopped at that.

Now that I think about it, I should replay the game with these things in mind, and see if my memories of the game are in line with reality. I feel pretty sure that they are, but who knows?

As for FF6 and Terra and Setzer. Both suffers a kind of a mental breakdown. Even if it might be "stereotypical", Terra is the only one of those two who turns that into something constructive. Setzer is the one who got the short straw here. He ends up an ex-gambler dude who is stuck drinking his sorrows away at a bar, while Terra actually does something good for the world, even when things were looking as grim as they were. It definitely sounds like she's the mentally strongest of the two.

See my responses to choinos and NeoCracker on this subject.

Yes, I was gonna type it out yesterday but it was too late, then I didn't really bother reading every new reply before I wrote it today.

[Raistlin]

Oh, my comment before was a dig at the pre-FFV games, not at FFV itself. I meant to say that it wasn't saying much to be any sort of improvement on them.

[Mirage]

Oh, all right then.

Then we can all agree that FF5 is a wonderful game and there is nothing wrong with it.

[Dr. rydrum2112]

I'm going to take your challenge Lez and find the last time a male needed to be rescued in a Final Fantasy game.

I'll be back.

you might have to define exactly, what you mean as off top of my head these could fit:
Strago WOR FF6
not physically but you have to rescue cloud from his melt down in 7
Laguna in FF8
in FFX tidus is rescued in the opening scene by auron & then 15mins later by Rikku
in FFX-2, the party rescues numerous men (i.e. the chocobo idiot, kamarhi)

Well god damn you, I wanted to do this myself .

Maybe I can find more instances though. However, many of these examples are from after the era this article covers.

In FF5, I am pretty sure you have to save Cid and his grandson Mid several times. I also think both the main character dude and the two girls in the party gets mind controlled by Siren, and the only reason Galuf can make them snap out of it is because he is amnesiac and doesn't recognize the fake images Siren conjures up to control them with.

I'm also not entirely sure, but I can't remember Krile needing any saving in FF5 either.

Maybe my memory fails me, but I can't think of a whole lot of woman-saving in that game. Lenna gets saved once at the beginning of the game, and I think she and Bartz gets stuck in the antlion cave in world three, where Faris ends up saving them both.

At the end of the game, you also end up with three times as many females in your party as males. It might be interesting to note that the previous generation of heroes in FF5 (the warriors of dawn) were all men, but your party, who represents the new generation (the warriors of light), are mostly women.

All in all, I think FF5 does a pretty darned good job. It is probably among the best for gender equality at the time it was released.

Well I have to be honest- the earliest FF I've played is 6. So I don't know if there are ones prior, so I am glad you can still contribute there. But as I said- the ones I mentioned, might not even count as a "true rescue" in the sense that Lez meant it.

[Dr. rydrum2112]

Here is an interesting thought, I think if you look hard enough you will find something that happened or a trait in any character than can be viewed as stereotypical. As you say, you had to look deep to find one for Terra & Celes- would that be true of every character?

For instance in my own opinion, I would've said Terra is a good example of not sexist (minus the nude morph look) where as Yuna is. Then I guess for me a non-sexist character would qualify if: I have to look hard to come up with an example of the bias. And clearly that means at some level they are probable still sexist, reflecting my first point?

Does anyone have an exemplar of a "truly" non-sexist character? (Does one even exist? how bad is that...)

[Raistlin]

That is a good question, ryd. And yes, actually, I would say that there are examples of characters that I wouldn't consider sexist. In another game with other characters, I think even Rosa could be considered non-sexist. That is because there would be a variety of other characters, and that one character just happened to be a woman who happened to fall into some common stereotypes. There are always going to be those characters just based on pure happenstance; someone has to be the weak healer, the person in need of rescue, or many other common fantasy tropes. My only problem with some of the earlier FF games is that when female characters are limited to those roles and personalities, not based on happenstance, but because they are women. And that seems to be the inescapable conclusion for most of these games when you look at the series as a whole.

For example, and I don't want to get ahead of myself here, but I don't see much all that sexist about Vanille from FFXIII, who is a cheery, physically-weak healer that fits a lot of the gender-based stereotypes I've discussed so far -- for reasons I'll get into in Part IV.

[chionos]

Oops, forgot to toe the line.

I agree with everything you said, Raist, and not a single thing was incorrect or misleading.