Exactly! Thank you!Originally Posted by Quinter Wonderland
Anyone who says "GO NCR!" like some sort of derranged cheerleader (oh and by the way Huxley, to pre-empt, I know you only support the NCR because of you had a crush on Tandi when you were a lad. DON'T DENY IT) did not deserve to play a game as wonderful as New Vegas.
Try again.I want to know why the NCR are good, not why the others are trout.
Also, House is no less of a tyrant than the corrupt-as-smurf NCR, and independent Vegas is not unstable if you don't smurf up and take out the undesirables like the Fiends and Powder Gangers.and that's all I wanted!
ps: bitter springs was totally genocide.
Edit: They make the citizen's lives better by subjecting them to endless wars and campaigns? The NCR is stretched to breaking point domestically because of their jaunt into the Mojave, the people are suffering while the government fights in some far off desert... heh hello Iraq war allegoryAnd as for making the people's lives better... the people don't smurfing want the NCR there. Why do you think they all resist the NCR? The Khans, The Kings, The Followers of the Apocalypse, The Brotherhood of Steel, The Families... they all want the NCR to piss off and for good reason. You talk to random civilians in Goodsprings, Primm or Freeside and they'll tell you they don't want that trout.
Exactly! Thank you!
Anyone who says "GO NCR!" like some sort of derranged cheerleader (oh and by the way Huxley, to pre-empt, I know you only support the NCR because of you had a crush on Tandi when you were a lad. DON'T DENY IT) did not deserve to play a game as wonderful as New Vegas.
(SPOILER)Patrolling the Mojave almost makes you wish for a nuclear winter.
I support the NCR because in the hellhole that is the Wasteland a society whose worst traits are corruption and overextension, and a single massacre which everyone thinks was bulltrout and is deeply ashamed of, AND where you're freely allowed to say "That's some bulltrout right there" "What are we doing in the Mojave in the first place", and "President Kimball is an idiot" is a pretty goddamn nice society. Meanwhile Nipton, Nelson, the million other places the Legion has massacred. Also, you know what the NCR did with Bitter Springs after taking it? They turned it into a refugee camp and are doing their best to keep alive all the people who are fleeing Caesar's Legion. On which note, despite people in the Mojave grumbling when the NCR moves in, they don't embark en masse in an exodus to escape them. Funny thing. Are the NCR perfect? smurf no. Are they the best option? smurf yes.
But oooh no apparently a bit of hypocrisy is worse than being a cultlike, rigidly hierarchical empire built solely on the backs of slave labor. A society where Bitter Springs would be condemned because some of the Khans survived, where women are treated somewhere between slaves and cattle, where winning a fight justifies crucifying your enemies. I appreciate that men and women might as a matter of necessity have different roles but on the other hand the NCR (Or Followers of the Apocalypse, BoS, Khans, Families, or various tribes) have not needed to institutionalize rape-slavery to survive. So um yeah that's sort of contravened by the facts pretty thoroughly
Oh as for hypocrisy, at least the NCR don't propagandize medicine as bad and then go right ahead and use it in secret to save their leader!
Last edited by Madame Adequate; 03-02-2013 at 04:35 AM.
I keep seeing NCR and thinking that you people are talking about me.
Why can nobody say anything nice about the NCR without having to talk trout about the Legion? Particularly when they're only two of four choices.The game is not about NCR v Legion. I don't get why you people can't seem to grasp that. It's not black and white. I don't choose either because they're both abysmal. It's the same choice: Join us or die.
Seeing as you all insist on bringing it back down to that level, I'm game. You know what? Yeah. Yeah, I'd rather be stabbed in the front by the Legion than in the back by the NCR. Would genuinely rather live under the Legion than NCR. Citizens in Legion controlled areas (yeah they don't enslave everyone like the NCR propaganda machine claims, who knew?) are actually much better off than the citizens of the NCR. Actual law and order is maintained - you wouldn't catch the likes of the Fiends existing on Legion territory. I mean hey, seeing as we're all so keen on "NCR are bad but not as bad as the Legion!" as our crutch, well, live by the sword, die by the sword: As bad as the Legion may be, I think we can all agree the Fiends are a whole 'nother level. The trout that happens to NCR citizens at the Fiends' hands doesn't happen in the Legion controlled lands. Oh, and they use resources of those they conquer to fuel their war effort rather than making the folks back home suffer. I mean hey, bad, but not as bad, right...?
As for Bitter Springs, oh no, the poor innocent NCR feel oh-so bad about the massacre. Well I guess that makes it okay to invade somebody else's land, smash the smurf out of them when they resist and then murder retreating women and children. Maybe your really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking. (WESLEY MOORE MOTHERsmurfER YEEHAW) Mr. Caesar feels bad about slavery and that'll absolve him of that too.
Oh, and as for refugee camp, ho ho ho. I think not. As you may remember, the Khans are allied with Caesar's Legion. If you convince them to break this alliance and team up with the NCR, and you help NCR win, let's find out what happens to them.welp thanks for that NCR you clearly feel very guilty about your genocide.After the Second Battle of Hoover Dam, the Great Khans returned for a time to Red Rock Canyon. The NCR's pressing need to expand proved greater than its promise of amnesty, and before long the government decided the Khans had to go. The surviving Great Khans were relocated to an isolated, barren reservation, well north of NCR trade routes
But hey the Khans deserve it, right? The NCR aren't quite done there, oh no. They also drive the Followers out, they abandon Primm to get smurfed over if you asked them to help it (and the NCR lose, of course
also lmao sarah "I knew you'd jump in and save us" xD That's what the people of Primm said to the NCR when they were too weak to fight their own battles. I am the Courier and I will save you all. No Gods, No Masters, smurf the NCR, smurf the Legion.
You make some good points, Psy, but if you will please recall what the NCR has for their emblem?
two
headed
mothersmurfing
BEAR
...yes but... but you see... I mean when you... notwithstanding... if you take it in isolation you could... I mean... well...
Well that's me defeated. O, I die, Horatio.
Independent is for edgy teenagers who are still angry that their parents made them go to church as a kid
And for people who actually want to improve the world and the lives of the citizens therein.
Oh god you all are so goddamn WRONG. We need a new thread for this so MILF and I can school you on proper New Vegas ideological discussion.
School me? What are you talking about? I've consistently destroyed all of NCR fanboys in this thread - you included - and you just keep repeating the same weak points over and over again. Maybe you're going for the NCR strategy of superiority of numbers hoping that'll see your weak ideology to victory. Well, not in my General Gaming Mojave, champ.
I'm not even going to acknowledge your new thread. I just read it and you straight up said "The NCR provide safety, security and freedom from genocide" and it's like... really? Really? Get out of here xD You're not saying any of those things with a straight face. That is a troll and I'm not going to bother rebutting it. That is not an actual thing that you or anyone with an IQ over 80 who has played this game thinks.
Face it, Psychotic. You're just one of those guys that just entered High School Government and decided to pick the most outlandish and irredeemable political system just so when sane-minded people object to your outrageous "stance", you can up and call them hypocrites living in a hopelessly and irreparably flawed society, making yourself feel more important.
And you know what? I can say this as a citizen in the NCR and not be crucified. Hell, I can personally tell Kimball to suck it and not have anyone really bat an eye. NCR has committed some terrible atrocities, many unforgivable. But at the very least, they are the exception and not the rule. As power-hungry and imperialist as they are, NCR is a society that can have its corrupt leaders more or less easily be voted out off office if people take notice and object. Which they do. Caesar's Legion may not be hypocritical, but if that's really something you feel should determine whether or not to support a government in such an extreme and inhospitable environment, then I shiver to think what one would tolerate from the government. Oh wait.
NCR is flawed. Very much so, no one is arguing that. NCR has ulterior motives, no one is arguing that either. What we are arguing is that attempting to find a perfect society in the ashes of an empire that in itself was imperfect is foolish. NCR, with all of its problems, still has a portion of the population who supports liberty, freedom, and peace, and does their best to uphold those as ideals. And while the NCR does things to (rightfully) piss people off, the difference is in the NCR you, as a citizen, can do something about it.
Every crime committed by NCR is something could either be avoided or punished by the population. In the end, that's what democracy is. Caesar's Legion is not like that. You shut up and bend over for Caesar, o r you're punished. There is an established social order that is never, ever infringed upon. The Legion is a society of absolutism and stagnancy. That is oppression.
It's a shame that there isn't a faction in Fallout that is just a bunch of sentient floppy penises walking about, because that's what all of you are. Dear me this thread is dire. xD
Ad hominem.Face it, Psychotic. You're just one of those guys that just entered High School Government and decided to pick the most outlandish and irredeemable political system just so when sane-minded people object to your outrageous "stance", you can up and call them hypocrites living in a hopelessly and irreparably flawed society, making yourself feel more important.Incorrect. Legion forces crucify NCR citizens all the time.And you know what? I can say this as a citizen in the NCR and not be crucified.Why don't you try murdering him and see if anyone bats an eye? I mean, there may be no dogpiling but there'll be a smurf ton of face shooting.Hell, I can personally tell Kimball to suck it and not have anyone really bat an eye.Yup.NCR has committed some terrible atrocities, many unforgivable.Yes.As power-hungry and imperialist as they are, NCR is a society that can have its corrupt leadersCorrect!Caesar's Legion may not be hypocriticalThey are indeed terrible, well spoken Laddy.NCR is flawed. Very much so, no one is arguing that. NCR has ulterior motives, no one is arguing that either.
Well, it kind of is. Legion citizens suffer a smurfton less crime. In fact, NONE AT ALL! What an outcome!Every crime committed by NCR is something could either be avoided or punished by the population. In the end, that's what democracy is. Caesar's Legion is not like that.So, uh... let's say there's a group of people called the Fate Barns. And they don't want to have the NCR on their land. So they have a choice of shutting up and bending over to the NCR, or not doing so. And let's say they do not do so... they don't get punished.... WITH A MASSAAAAAACRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEE?You shut up and bend over for Caesar, o r you're punished. There is an established social order that is never, ever infringed upon.Well given the rate at which it's growing it's hardly stagnant...The Legion is a society of absolutism and stagnancy. That is oppression.
Joshua Sawyer:
What Caesar gave to those tribes was order, discipline, an end to internecine tribal violence (eventually), common language, and a common culture that was not rooted in any of their parent cultures.
He says that when the Legion dominates NCR, it will be akin to the rise of the Roman Empire following the republic. The Legion will become, if not a "peace" force, a domestic army instead of a roving war band, and the NCR's corruption will be swept away along with the government.
Arcade isn't exaggerating when he suggests that Caesar views the Colorado River as his Rubicon. e: It's true that Caesar doesn't say anything explicitly about the role of women, but Caesar's view of women is different from most of the legionaries. As I wrote above, the Legion is at war, and he views the use of women for military purposes as a bad strategic choice when he could be using them to create more legionaries.
In Caesar's view, NCR's problems have to do with the corruption of its government and what he sees as inherent flaws in NCR's republican system. All of the strategies he uses to assemble the Legion and march on NCR are means to an end, not social end goals themselves.
Caesar sees NCR as Rome and his role in reforming it as Julius Caesar's role in reforming the republic (by turning it into a dictatorship). When Julius Caesar crossed the Rubicon and returned to Rome, his legion didn't rape and enslave their way through the city. However, rape and enslavement were common in outer territories of the Roman Empire and were regularly used as tools of intimidation and labor.
oh and
The additional Legion locations would have had more traveling non-Legion residents of Legion territories. The Fort and Cottonwood Cove made sense as heavy military outposts where the vast majority of the population consisted of soldiers and slaves. The other locations would have had more "civilians". It's not accurate to think of them as citizens of the Legion (the Legion is purely military), but as non-tribal people who live in areas under Legion control.
While Caesar intentionally enslaves NCR and Mojave residents in the war zone, most of the enslavement that happens in the east happens to tribals. As Raul indicates, there are non-tribal communities that came under Legion control a long time ago. The additional locations would have shown what life is like for those people.
The general tone would have been what you would expect from life under a stable military dictatorship facing no internal resistance: the majority of people enjoy safe and productive lives (more than they had prior to the Legion's arrival) but have no freedoms, rights, or say in what happens in their communities. Water and power flow consistently, food is adequate, travel is safe, and occasionally someone steps afoul of a legionary and gets his or her head cut off. If the Legion tells someone to do something, they only ask once -- even if that means an entire community has to pick up and move fifty miles away. Corruption within the Legion is rare and Caesar deals with it harshly (even by Legion standards).
In short, residents of Legion territories aren't really citizens and they aren't slaves, but they're also not free. People who keep their mouths shut, go about their business, and nod at the rare requests the Legion makes of them -- they can live very well. Many of them don't care at all that they don't have a say in what happens around them (mostly because they felt they never had a say in it before the Legion came, anyway).
for good measure
In Caesar's mind, this California Empire would have the infrastructure, knowledge, technology, and some culture from the NCR with the discipline, integrity, efficiency, and security of the Legion.
but no
good vs evil
and FREEEEEEDOM!!!! (hint: Freedom to get smurfing murdered by Fiends/Raiders/Powder Gangers/Corrupt NCR Troops/Feral Ghouls/Super Mutants and all the other things the NCR are too weak to deal with)
because democracy is way more important than living in peace and stability. AMURRRRCA says so. Hell let's ask what the peoples of Afghanistan and Iraq think about that! i mean hey ho I may live in a war torn trouthole and poverty and in constant fear of my life, but on the plus side I can call the our troutty leaders who got me into this troutty situation dorks! AHHRRRRRRRR HAAAAAAAAA ANERRRRRICAAAA COME ON AGAIN TO SAVE THE MOTHERsmurfING DAY YEAH
and all that
NOW WRITE ABOUT MR HOUSE JEEZ LOUISE
this thread is more heated than 95% of the discussion in EoEO
I'm not sure how to respond
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