Xeno Debate: Gears Vs. Saga

[Forsaken Lover]

I'll never understand how you can place Xenosaga so high and Xenogears so low. Yes, Saga did several things better than Gears and I appreciate those improvements. The most major one of course is keeping all the cast relevant and not letting them just drop off into obscurity. (that was a bad habit of Gears) By and large it also has better dungeons but that's just because XG's dungeons were among the worst in history. There are also other things here and there that I prefer about Saga.

But really, pros don't place it levels and levels above Gears. You praise Xenosaga for having an unrivaled villain lineup and I agree that its cast of baddies was superb. But I cannot see how Xenogears shined any less brightly in that department.
Wilhelm vs. Krelian also isn't a very fair comparison though Wilhelm is a much better character.

And while Xenogears did neglect a lot of its main cast, when they were in focus they tended to be very interesting and awesome. Who can ever forget Maria rushing out to fight her father? Rico's subplot with being the son of the Kaiser was also pretty neat. (if only it went somewhere...)
I would also argue that, apart from Fei and Elly, both Citan and Bart maintained a great deal of importance throughout the plot.

And there's probably more but I'm more than I realized so i can't focus properly. Point is that I'm just baffled by how you can love Saga so much while not liking Gears. To me, they're both so similar that I can't imagine liking one and not the other. I feel the same way when people bitch about Xenosaga being a major letdown compared to Xenogears.

[NeoCracker]

I'll never understand how you can place Xenosaga so high and Xenogears so low.

The most major one of course is keeping all the cast relevant and not letting them just drop off into obscurity. (that was a bad habit of Gears) By and large it also has better dungeons but that's just because XG's dungeons were among the worst in history.

Wilhelm vs. Krelian also isn't a very fair comparison though Wilhelm is a much better character.

Rico's subplot with being the son of the Kaiser was also pretty neat. (if only it went somewhere...)

...Yeah, you kind of listed a pretty damn solid foundation as to just why I love Saga so much more then Gears for me in this post.

There is also the lack of an entire disk that does nothing but monologue to you. That's a bit plus in Xeno's favor. (Though to be fair, twice Saga did something similar where Shion in Episode 2 talked about the war between Federation and Immigrant fleet, and talking about how she came to join Scientia. However the description was far less boring, and didn't go on for anywhere near as long as Xenogears did.)

Also, the Characters are pretty much universally better. Fei and Citan being an exception to this. Fei is easilly a better lead then Shion, and Citan in terms of quality is on par with the Saga cast. Though I guess I could do a Character Vs. Character comparison, though It might be hard to be fair considering Xeno got 3 games to flesh out it's cast.

[Forsaken Lover]

Really? Out of the Gears party you think only Citan was written as well as the Saga cast?
An interesting choice... He's not one of my favorites but I suppose after Fei and Elly he gets the most consistent screentime and development. The mystry of what the heck was going on with him was also a big part of the story for at least half of the game.

I have no doubt that, pound-for-pound, the Xenosaga party would beat the Xenogears party in terms of character and writing. Each Xenosaga game, with the massive exception of EPII, did a fabulous job of making it "an ensemble story". Shion was undoubtedly the lead but none of the others felt superfluous and they all had their own little arcs to wrap up. I mean, just look at the fantastic closure Episode 3 gave us. Whether it was the URTVs and Yuriev, Ziggy and Voyager or Jin and Pellegri/Margulis, everyone had a wonderful and satisfying end. Can't really say the same for Rico or frickin' Chu-Chu or even Bart.
MOMO kinda just faded into the background though... Her "closure' was her finally meeting and talking to Joachim but even then that didn't feel special enough. At least to me.

But even if a lot of teh party fell flat, I think Fei and Elly can stand up to anyone on the Saga team. I might not like the crap with Krelian but the rest of the ending in Xenogears is pure magic to me. For 10,000 years Fei and Elly have loved and lost one another due to various nefarious machinations. However love has won out and they have conquered every single obstacle in their path. Their love will finally not only blossom, but continue to bloom for years to come.

Of course you don't like their love story so bleh. :/

And I think the area in which the two games are closest when it comes to characters is their respective villain rosters. I can honestly not say which group of antagonists I love more. Yes Wilhelm beats Krelian but Xenogears has Grahf and Miang and Id and Ramsus. Ramsus maybe lost all his threat potential early on but he was still a very powerful character for me. I don't think anyone in either series suffered as much as he did and I certainly didn't sympathize with anyone else as much as I did with him.

At the same time Xenosaga has a plethora of both deep and just lovably hateable villains too. Yuriev's my personal favorite there but Margulis is a close second.

[NeoCracker]

Fei and Citan I said.

As much as Gears pissed me off, there isn't much doubt to me that Fei is one of, if not the, best written main character in a video game.

Perhaps I'll go for a comparison of villains instead of heroes then. Maybe I'll just drop off the fairness and do the heroes too.

Well, on it I Shall get!

Edit: And believe it or not, Jin and Citan will not be up for comparison with each other. ;P

[Bolivar]

Yeah my mind was blown when Neo, after all the smug trolling the likes of me could only aspire of one day emulating, revealed that not only had he played Xenosaga first, but held them so dear. I really don't see how you could laud one and lambast the other, unless you were prejudiced by the love gears gets at the expense of saga.

[NeoCracker]

Or, you know, I could just have taste.

[Bolivar]

As much as I enjoy Xenogears' story and music, I really can't fault you there.

[Forsaken Lover]

Will the character comparisons be done in their own thread? I gotta keep an eye out for that.

[NeoCracker]

I'll just post it here. It is, after all, a defense of game positioning on my list.

Krellian Vs. Wilhelm
This one was easy to pick, each person being their respective games main antagonist. Though as easy as it was to pick this, it was easy to determine Wilhelm was the better villain. To start with, I’ll bring up why Krellian fails for me. Krellian is arrogent as all hell and to arguably hypocritical due to his comments on the Ministry extending their life by going computer on everyone. When we learn of him and Lacan, he starts showing some clear signs of jealousy for Lacan being chosen over him by Elly. He has some pretty clear motivations set up by this, at least in part manipulated by Miang to fulfil the goal of Deus and what not. Yet no, at the very end we get that stupid smurfing line of no one having more love then Krellian. There was no set up for this, just something pulled out of the ass. Maybe the set up was cut at some point, who knows.

Wilhelm, on the other hand, is set up from the get go. You may not fully understand why he says some of the things he does, such as ‘His will shines with a wonderous light. It’s a shame he plays such a small part.’ He shows much more appreciation and love of the world, and in the end his entire plan was to save the world from an inevitable destruction. There is no hatred, and no animosity from Wilhelm. It’s also bizarre that he seems genuinely happy when he fails. He really is one of, if not the, most unique villain I have ever seen in a game.

Gharf Vs. Albedo
Some may be wondering why this was the pair chosen to face off. The reason is kind of simple, in each of their respective games, they serve the same purpose. To approach your characters when things are going wrong and poke them until the get pissy. And I would say, they both perform these roles amazingly well.

Yes, they both have a lot more going for them then that, but at it’s purest that is their role in the plot. In addition, both are essential part of one of the party members. Gharf to Fei, Albedo to Jr. However they differ massively once past their similar role in stories, but in terms of how they interact with and get on with their connected selves, it’s got to go to Albedo with me. While Gharf does his ‘I’m consumed by my hatred and grief’ schtick well, as a villain that’s about all there is to him. Even though he had a very well done back story on how he became Gharf, once in villain form he didn’t seem to offer much more then his role at Poking Fei, and after Krellian got rolling Gharf didn’t feel like he was much more then Krellian’s underling and an obstacle in your way. Hell, none of Fei’s Growth as a character much involves Gharf, it’s much more tied into his dealings with ID and Elly.

Compare that with Albedo. His interactions with Jr. are absolutely phenomenal. When Jr. get’s angry, things feel a lot more personal and big then when Fei get’s pushed around by Gharf. More so Albedo is doing a lot more then just pushing Jr.'s buttons, he’s actively going around and getting trout done. In terms of personality, presence, and history Albedo pretty much out classes Gharf in every way.


Gazel Ministry Vs. Dmitri Yuriev
This is the best comparison I could create, as Gears doesn’t really have a person like Dmitri, a third party villain basically. However, since in the end he was manipulated to do think our main villain could not without him, he’s similar to the Ministry for being used by Krellian in a similar way.

Yuriev wins out over the ministry for me on the basis the Ministry didn’t really feel like they were necessary. We already had Cain who was preventing the use of the key, while the Ministry were the ones who could actually use it. Considering how Krellian had entirely puppeteer ed the council anyway, they felt rather superfluous and used as little more then a few bits of plot reveal.

And, for anyone who has played Saga, do I even need to describe why Dmitri is so great? He has a wonderful way of just speaking to everyone like they are so far beneath him. He is sly, vicious, and cruel all in the name of his goals. And I love how he openly accepts that what drives him is his fear. Not often is there a villain who so welcomes that kind of emotion, and he uses it to drive him towards his desire to overcome it. Not to mention the way he ties in with Jr. and Albedo.

Margulas Vs. Kaharn
Just to clarify, this parrying is made because they both are the Lacky’s of the actual bad guys, and both of them are pretty much ignorant of whats really going on and are just being used buy the higher ups. Hell, even their endings are pretty much the same. Even after they realize they have been cast off, they hold on to their stubborn pride and face off against the heroes one last time.

The difference comes in that as a character, Margulas just stands tall and is full of conviction. He feels like he has a purpose for fighting, a reason he is so invested in all he does and a powerful drive and will to get his motivation from. Hell, the guy is imposing as all hell.

Compare that with to Kaharn, who more often then not just feels incompetent, and when compared to the likes of Margulas lacks any real threat, and even more so lacks the drive and presence. He was little more then an easy puppet to push around to Krellians ends, and when he was cast off you just end up feeling ‘meh’ cause it was going to happen anyway.

Margulas, on the other hand, when you realize he’s just being used, it doesn’t take long before you start feeling bad for the guy. You watch as he begins to realize he’s been lied to, and you see is composure crumble more and more each time Heinline has him give up on one of the relics of Ormus. All up until his resolve is finally gone, and he goes out for the only thing left, his fight with Jin.


T-elos Vs. Miang
Again for the sake of those who have played neither, both characters kind of work as the ‘evil’ counterpart to someone. In both cases, I use the word ‘evil’ loosely. Now, I’ll admit that I’m not to big a fan of Miang, but she has a pretty interesting reason for doing what she does, and she is pretty damn good at being conniving.

Though even though I don’t like her that much, she does make for a better villain then T-Elos. T-elos is just kind of their to me, and really only has one note she hits whenever she’s on scream, “I’ll defeat you to become real”. Mind you, she does it well, but really she’s more just a piece of a puzzle crafted by Wilhelm, regardless of how awesome here fights with KOS-MOS look.

Kevin Winnicot Vs. ID
Alright, this pairing happens both are integrall to the main character’s Psyche in one way or another. Kevin being the one who was Shion’s lover and developer of KOS-MOS, his role in the plot is second only to Wilhelm. He spends a good portion of the final game after his reveal trying to coax Shion over to him in order to his side.

ID issn’t so much important to Fei’s Psyche as he is part of it, being another personality of Fei. Not really on the side of the rest of the villains, his importance to their plan as well as the shear force of will he exerts is commendable. Formed from all the bad memories and hatred and frustrations of Fei, he refuses to be forgotten or denied his existence.

While I like Kevin and all, ID wins this one. Were as Gahrf felt underwhelming after Krellians entrance, and Krellian himself falling flat with a badly handled motivation, ID’s entrance, growth and Conclusion were outstanding. I was a bit sad that when Fei managed to reconcile his different personalities that they never really seemed to shine through and Fei continued to be exactly as he was before that, the arc of ID was none the less terrific. One of the things the game concluded wonderfully.

[Wolf Kanno]

I don't really agree with these pairings... Wilhelm should be paired with Miang and Krelian should be paired with Yuriev because their natures and circumstances in the game are far more similar. Minag and Wilhelm are constructs created to live for countless years and manipulate human history to achieve an overall goal, whereas Yuriev and Krelian are people who become aware of each of their games grand conspiracies and try to manipulate it for their own good.

There are no good counterpoints for the Gazel Ministry, T-Elos, or several other villain crews. You would run into the same issue with the heroes since Xenogears main playable cast is larger than Saga's.

[NeoCracker]

You make a valid enough point. I think my pairings are pretty solid though, but that makes sense. Also, After my brief list here, I'll be fair and bring up two issues with Saga I didn't touch on before, having just finished off Episode 3.

As far as gears, I just ignored Esmarelda and Pupu for my comparisons, that I have yet to write mind you, might not since I pretty much will just re-tread descriptions from my BoF2 comparisons.

Here were the pairings anyway.

Fei Vs. Shion -Main Characters obviously. Point to Fei on this one.

Rico Vs. Ziggy - Both are kind of the protective brutes of the group, and both kind of get shafted. However Ziggy does have Pied Piper, and even with a lack of focus he feels like his story is complete by the end, even if we don't get it all. Point Ziggy.

Chaos Vs. Citan -Both serve as this party figure that knows a lot more then the party, and is there to help guide them along quitely. This is a smurfing hard one for me and I can't really decide who I enjoy more. I will note Citan is more consistently active then Chaos though.

Elly Vs. KOS-MOS - They both serve as some form of key to get things going and that is necessary to the villains plan. At it's most basic form they share similar roles. The big draw on Elly, character wise, is the lovestory though. And, as I said before, I don't really like the pre-destined thing. Past that she's alright as a character, but nothing amazing. KOS-MOS's growing emotions and interactions had me far more invested. Point goes to Mary.

Bart Vs. Jin - Oh yeah, this is the pairing I go with. The reason I didn't pair Jin and Citan is Jin didn't really have the same kind of connection to the villains Citan did, and his Role is quite a bit different. This was chosen because both seem to be actively trying to hold up and support our lead and keep their head straight and on track. The difference being is Jin is troubled by his inability to do that. While I'd say Bart has the more compelling story and History, Jin wins this one because he's simply the better character. Point Jin.

Jr. Vs. Billy - Jr. and Billy both have a connection with one of the antagonists fronts, and their roles are to reveal to you the player some of the back workings of these things. You really don't get much of a feel for the Church of gears though, especially compared to U-TIC and Yuriev. And, even judging by Jr.'s story in any one of the games, ignoring the others, there is a lot more interest there for Jr. then Billy. Point Rubedo.

MOMO vs. Maria - This was chosen cause I had no other people left. Off the top of my head I can't think of any real direct comparison. By now you know my feelings on the uselessness of Maria though, so I'll save the trouble and give the point to MOMO, even if she is mostly irrelevent in game 3.

And now the points on Xenosaga to bring up.

I really don't understand your comments before on needing the Datalog to follow the story. Everything you need to know is presented, except for one detail. And I do admit this is a big one. That Wilhelm has succeeded at the Eternal Occurance in the past, and that since U-DU is unnaffected by it, his consciousness continues to evolve, which alters the events slightly. Though we already know of Chaos's ability to interfere, it is a rather important detail to leave out. Without the Data logs it seems as though this is the first time Wilhelm's attempted this.

The other is probably the games biggest problem on a hole. And that problem is Allen. Not so much as the character himself, but after three games they do a terrible job at establishing a relationship between him and Shion, as his unfelt emotions are pretty much just there for laughs. It really pulls down the Scene with Shion and Kevin near the end. Especially since we already have Jin there, and the rest of the party. Reasonably Allen need not be involved, especially considering the comedic nature of his role up until now anyway.

More so, his presence damages what they tried to do with Shion. Here story only makes sense if she were to feel isolated from everyone, the whole no one understands her feelings thing. The problem is allen has always been there, even before the game started, and he's still here. At no point does Shion ever feel alone or misunderstood, but just comes off a bit whiny. I feel had Allen not been there, and it was simply Jin and everyone who convinced her to come back, it would have played out a lot better.

Also, unrelated note, even though Shion is certainly the main character, I'd never call her the leader. Since joining the group, Jr. clearly has that role locked down. They constantly defer to him when they need direction, and he pretty much calls the shots. Also, I don't think a single character get's more time devouted to them then Jr. Game 2 was like, 70% his story, the entire Dmitri and Albedo bits from game 3, and episode 1's involvement in U-Tic and more Albedo.

[Madame Adequate]

miang should be paired with extremely strict bondage in my dungeon

[Forsaken Lover]

Those are some interesting matchups....

Miang and Wilhelm really do have more in common than Miang/T-elos or Wilhelm/Krelian though. They're both the impartial god-beings who have manipulated all of humanity to a specific point for a specific rason Neither of them is particularly "villainous" insofar as they don't seem to really take any sadistic pleasure in what they do. They'll do horrific things like break fetus Ramsus' mind before he's even born or have billions killed off during wars and experiments but that's just a means to an end. They're both just constructs living for a singular purpose.

Miang is certainly more hate-able though as she dirties her hands more personally. Wilhelm pretty much ruined Shion's life too but his direct involvement was minimal while Miang was the cause for Ramsus' and Fei's and Elly's and God knows how many othr peoples' suffering.

Comparing Grahf and Al is interesting but I found him more similar to Yuriev. Grahf is my favorite baddie from Gears and Dmitri is my favorite villain from Saga. While Grahf and Al have a more sympathetic backstory in common, a guy I know likened Grahf and Yuriev in this way:

Although there is no relation between the two characters, they are both capable of transferring their own mind to others due to having come into contact with a wave-type existence. Both are 'major antagonists' who each express an extreme and destructive solution to the main theme in their respective story arc. Both characters are in part allusions to the Devil.

Margulis vs. Ramsus is an interesting one. I can't fault your parallels except in regards to the fact I think Ramsus pretty much stopped being a "straight up villain" somewhere along the storyline. He was just too pathetic (in an obviously intentional way) while Margulis remained a credible threat in his own right all the way up to his death. I also felt very bad for Margulis when he learned his entire life was devoted to a phony belief and cause but I don't think that alone really puts him on the same level as Ramsus who had the crappiest life in a game where everyone had a pretty crappy life.\

While we're on the topic of Ramsua and Miang though, I have to praise one piece of Xenogears' storytelling that I have appreciated ever since my first playthrough 8 or so years ago.

Here comes big bad blond dude with a sword. He's the commander of the most powerful military force on the planet. He's strong, dignified and has quite the impressive introduction. We're looking at Big Bad material here.
Oh and look there, who's that by his side? It's his assistant hunny. I guess she's cute and a nice side antagonist.

BZZZZZZZZTTTTTTTTTTT! WRONG.

Our awesome sword-wielding leader is a pitiful shell who everyone kicks around and his unassuming sidekick is the most diabolical force on the face of the planet.

It's like if Pellegri turned out to be Wilhelm.

Speaking of which, surprised you didn't compare Pellegri and the Elements or the other Testaments. Pellegri and Dominia are pretty much straight up clones ya know. Pellegri is way less of a C-word though.
I frickin' hate Dominia. Bitch, bitch, bitch.

I'll address the rest of your stuff later.

[NeoCracker]

I tried to compare based on the roles they filled plot wise, and similarities in arcs. There's too much different to be 100% accurate in the pairings though. Both Margulas and Ramsus fulfilled practically the same role plot wise, and had similar arcs, I don't really think there was a better comparison that could have been made.

And I still think Krellian and Windhelm are easilly comparable. Miang may have been the one who corrupted Krellian to do what he did, but in the end it was still Krellian's planning, schemes, and motivation. The parrallell's between Miang and Wilhelm end with 'they were both god-like beings created to do stuff'.

And Ramsus may have had the crappiest life, but that doesn't really amount to much when I couldn't bring myself to care. He was an unlikable, unrelateable, non threatening, and unsympathetic. Just bad things happening to a guy arent' enough to make me care. Margulas may not have had as troutty a lot in life compared to Ramsus, but what he had was a lot of depth and personality as a character.

[Forsaken Lover]

To each their own my friend. I wasn't nearly as apathetic to Ramsus as you were it seems.

On the heroes comparison, your singling out of Allen being a problem with Shion's characterization is certainly an interesting and original critique that I've never read before. In a way it reminds me of a guy who was Let's Playing the XS trilogy on SomethingAwful and he absolutely hated hion from day one. At the start of Episode 3 he loved to point out how Shion and Miyuki are supposed to be great friends but he'd say this every time Shion was bitching at her. (which was a lot) '

Miyuki is kind of retarded though so I didn't see the problem but it kinda fits with what you said. Shion pulls the "nobody understands me" card a lot in 3 and yet she's had people there with her a lot of the time. I suppose you could say just because they've been there doesn't mean they can really understand. I mean, look at everything that happened to Lil' Shion at the end of Disk 1. Her friend is eaten and her parents were brutally murdered. And then her boyfriend got murdered by their robotic lovechild. Even if you did have friends they might not be able to really comprehend how much your life sucks.

Other than that I don't really have any strong thoughts on your hero comparison. I only really liked Fei and Elly from Gears and Shion and Ziggy from Saga. You were more or less fair from what I can see.

Pied Piper was awesome. I'd rather have played that than Episode II.

I hope you're proud of yourself, Cracker. I WAS going to replay FFIX for the first time in like seven years. But now this topic necessitates I play Xenogears again as it's been over a year since I did so.