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FF12 is my waifu.
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Vaan was a pointless non-entity as far as the story was concerned. Cut him from the game, you lose nothing, and he is the only character about whom you can say that.Originally Posted by Shin Gouken
Also, he participated in the "I'm Captain Basch" event, which is the most nonsensical, badly written thing in a Final Fantasy game, and makes the laughing scene from X look absolutely brilliant.
On a personal note, I found certain scenes with him in it even more painful than the worst of Tidus's scenes.
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No, you couldn't cut Vaan from the game and expect it to play out the same. Vaan's development is crucial because it directly affects Ashes development. If he was unable to overcome his own desire for revenge, he would not have been able to help Ashe overcome hers.Vaan was a pointless non-entity as far as the story was concerned. Cut him from the game, you lose nothing, and he is the only character about whom you can say that.
Also, he participated in the "I'm Captain Basch" event, which is the most nonsensical, badly written thing in a Final Fantasy game, and makes the laughing scene from X look absolutely brilliant.
On a personal note, I found certain scenes with him in it even more painful than the worst of Tidus's scenes.
Tidus on the otherhand could easily be removed from FFX with zero consequences. Should he have not existed, Auron would still have guarded Yuna following his promise to Braska. He would still have lead them off the track to train against harder foes, he would still of witheld information from them so it could have a bigger emotional impact when the party found out, and he would still have given his warcry and lead the party against Yunalesca. Auron blames Yunalesca for the death of his two best friends, and after failing to get his revenge once before and being killed for his troubles, he comes back with a team of powerful guardians and tells them now is the time to fight... his plan from the beginning. Tidus doesn't change any of this.
The laughing scene is a million times worse than the "I'm Basch Fon Ronsenburg" scene. I can only assume you're trolling when you say such things.
Vaan gets exactly one outburst (when he's confronted by the man he believes to be his brothers murderer), he matures pretty fast after that, as a result of learning of the horrors in the world and being an active part in trying to free Dalmasca from the Empire. Tidus keeps up his tantrum throwing for most of the game and he almost never has a reason like Vaan does for his one and only outburst.
If you want to hate on Vaan, i hope you'll be mature enough to talk about it in detail, unless you just hate him because he has painted abs, in which case i'd just be wasting my time talking to you.
Considering Auron's dedication to his friends, I'd say if Yuna had decided to use the Final Aeon, he wouldn't have stopped her, because he swore to protect her no matter what. And without the efforts of Tidus and Rikku, I doubt Yuna would've swayed from her path. She might've even married Seymour willingly. If you're gonna credit Vaan for bringing Ashe away from her misled path, give Tidus some credit for doing the same for Yuna. And quite frankly, I doubt Rikku would've ever joined the pilgrimage had it not been for Tidus.
Really? You know, if you hate the laughing scene, fine, I can't change that. But at least accept that others may feel the same way about the whole Basch Fon Ronsenburg scenario.The laughing scene is a million times worse than the "I'm Basch Fon Ronsenburg" scene. I can only assume you're trolling when you say such things.
I'll give you that Vaan has that one outburst, at least up until Pharos. And yet, I don't know what you're talking about with the whole Tidus keeps up his tantrum throwing. Please elaborate.Vaan gets exactly one outburst (when he's confronted by the man he believes to be his brothers murderer), he matures pretty fast after that, as a result of learning of the horrors in the world and being an active part in trying to free Dalmasca from the Empire. Tidus keeps up his tantrum throwing for most of the game and he almost never has a reason like Vaan does for his one and only outburst.
Perhaps. On the other hand, he did desire revenge enough to try and kill Yunalesca once already and ended up with even more reason to want to kill her. I personally doubt he would sit and watch Yuna fall to the same fate as his two best friends. If this were true, he might have told Yuna of the Final Aeon before reaching Zanarkand.Considering Auron's dedication to his friends, I'd say if Yuna had decided to use the Final Aeon, he wouldn't have stopped her, because he swore to protect her no matter what.
This is never implied. Yuna was always prepared to sacrafice herself for the calm but never, not once was it ever implied that she would sacrafice anyone else too.And without the efforts of Tidus and Rikku, I doubt Yuna would've swayed from her path.
This is about as silly as saying "Ba'Gamnan wouldn't have captured and held Penelo hostage if Vaan wasn't in FFXII". Side villians themselves are only there to keep interesting things happening when the main plot takes a break.She might've even married Seymour willingly.
I get that this was supposed to be his purpose but it's poorly executed. Tidus constantly tries to force on us that this is "his" story. Why are we reducing his role to influencing other characters if this is his story? The developers would have us believe that Tidus is the main character but you're now saying that he was there as an influence to Yuna. That would make him a side character at best.If you're gonna credit Vaan for bringing Ashe away from her misled path, give Tidus some credit for doing the same for Yuna.
Again, you're saying Tidus is essential to the plot just because he fights in a random boss battle. Even if this wasn't a rather silly defense, i doubt the Al Bhed would have sent Rikku on her own and even if they did, she could have tried to flee rather than face it herself.And quite frankly, I doubt Rikku would've ever joined the pilgrimage had it not been for Tidus.
I'm sure others will feel the same about the Basch Fon Ronsenburg scene as i feel about the laughing scene, but it doesn't change the fact that the laughing scene is far worse. Just type "Tidus" into google and "Tidus laugh" comes up in the list of popular searches. The laughing scene is infamous for its ability to grind at peoples sanity, the Basch Fon Ronsenburg is more of a minor annoyance at best.Really? You know, if you hate the laughing scene, fine, I can't change that. But at least accept that others may feel the same way about the whole Basch Fon Ronsenburg scenario.
Vaan doesn't have an "outburst" in the Pharos. His second and last outburst was in the Bahamut and is smurfin awesome because he runs at Vayne and guts him with a sword ^_^I'll give you that Vaan has that one outburst, at least up until Pharos. And yet, I don't know what you're talking about with the whole Tidus keeps up his tantrum throwing. Please elaborate.
Tidus' outbursts are more child like. Example, when he sees Auron in Luca ("This is all your fault, everything, EVERYTHING!"), disobeying the temple precepts ("Like i care" - like a child disobeying his parents <_<), unable to comprehend simple things ("If you want everything you'll end up ith nothing", "But i WANT everything"), general outbursts ("I'm gunna KILL that Seymour"), and possibly the only one i'd say is justified (Lulu, how could you, HOW COULD YOU) but this one is waaaay too late in the game to still be having outbursts.
You can justify his outbursts and childlike behaviour but that won't make them any less annoying and it only makes it worse when only the one character is having outbursts while everyone keeps their cool. Tidus is a moron, he has the emotional level of a child and has trouble controlling himself. He's not a suitable protagonist for an RPG, he's barely a suitable protagonist for a saturday morning cartoon... or a pornographic movie. He belongs with the support cast and his doses should be minimal
I was going to write a long reply until I came to this part...
...and realized the folly. Obviously I can justify them - and obviously I can't do any more than that. You're bothered by Tidus' attitude - I'm not. I always try to see the reason and purpose behind someone's actions, both real people and RPG characters, and as such, I had no problem with Tidus. Characters/People don't always have to be badass, be positive, be able to pull through any situation without going down, understand everything instantly, etc. And over the course of the game, Tidus matures a lot as he begins to understand and feel for the people of Spira.
One thing though. I feel that Tidus, on a protagonist level, does his job very, very well. The world of Spira is expansive, complicated and has various cultures, precepts, customs and the like. And all of it must somehow be conveyed to the player. Enter Tidus, someone just like the player, who has no idea of anything about Spira. Through him, we get to see all sides of Spira. NPCs explain things to him, and as such, to us. And just like the player, Tidus develops some "outsider-perspectives": Are the Al Bhed really bad people? Should the teachings of Yevon really be as highly regarded as they are? All these kinds of questions that a Spiran normally wouldn't ever think about (see Tidus and Yuna's conversation on Mi'ihen Highroad). All the while still not being a blank slate, but his own personality with his own backstory and impressions. Even if most of the storyline isn't centered around him, he does a wonderful job as a protagonist. That is Tidus.
I felt his scenes with Ashe were awkward, unnecessary, and didn't actually change much about her character.
No, you couldn't have. Auron is too conservative, probably because he was raised in Spira. Tidus is the character who causes Yuna to question her beliefs and ideals. She wouldn't have overthrown the yoke without him, because she never would have asked any of the questions which eventually caused her to rebel.Tidus on the otherhand could easily be removed from FFX with zero consequences. Should he have not existed, Auron would still have guarded Yuna following his promise to Braska. He would still have lead them off the track to train against harder foes, he would still of witheld information from them so it could have a bigger emotional impact when the party found out, and he would still have given his warcry and lead the party against Yunalesca. Auron blames Yunalesca for the death of his two best friends, and after failing to get his revenge once before and being killed for his troubles, he comes back with a team of powerful guardians and tells them now is the time to fight... his plan from the beginning. Tidus doesn't change any of this.
Also, when I said that Vaan was the only character who could be removed without affecting the story, I was referring to FFXII's characters (though I respect your right to make a similar accusation about X). Removing anyone else, even Penelo, would have changed the plot (due to her ties to Larsa). But Vaan does nothing.
The laughing scene, while incredibly awkward, makes sense, which is FAR more than you can say about the "I'm Captain Basch" scene.The laughing scene is a million times worse than the "I'm Basch Fon Ronsenburg" scene. I can only assume you're trolling when you say such things.
I've posted it before, but I'll go ahead and give my defense of the laughing scene.
The "I'm Captain Basch" scene, in addition to be horribly acted, makes no sense whatsoever.They're two teenagers stuck in very uncomfortable positions. Tidus, facing the reality that he'd never make it back to his home, and Yuna, facing her death when she summons the Final Aeon. Each is contemplating the end of all they've known, and neither really knows that the other is in the same situation at this point. The scene is uncomfortable and full of nervous energy, and the laugh is their way of releasing it. It sounds forced and unnatural because it was, and it was supposed to be. I thought it was quite well executed and fit perfectly with the characters and the situations they were in. And then we get to everyone else staring at them and calling them nuts, and that fit too. This sort of thing is one of the things I like about X's characters, and, while the scene may be awkward as hell, I wouldn't want it removed.
I hate him because he's a bland character who doesn't seem to develop naturally. You say he "matures pretty fast", but that's not necessarily a good thing. Tidus's whining served a point. His story was about him growing up, accepting the world and its problems. Vaan's "development" usually feels forced and unnatural. During the handful of scenes where he actually addresses his issues, it never feels like he's coming to terms with things, but rather that acceptance of the issues is just being magically fed into him. It's a problem he doesn't whine, because he has a lot of reason too. A character who has held on to those issues for that long should not get over things as quickly as he did.Vaan gets exactly one outburst (when he's confronted by the man he believes to be his brothers murderer), he matures pretty fast after that, as a result of learning of the horrors in the world and being an active part in trying to free Dalmasca from the Empire. Tidus keeps up his tantrum throwing for most of the game and he almost never has a reason like Vaan does for his one and only outburst.
If you want to hate on Vaan, i hope you'll be mature enough to talk about it in detail, unless you just hate him because he has painted abs, in which case i'd just be wasting my time talking to you.
Partially this is due to FFXII's game design. There's never a scene where a character walks away from the party and takes time to think. We never see Vaan actually process or work through any of his issues. FFVII, FFVIII, FFIX, FFX... In each of these games we get points where the party just thinks, about their situations. It never happens here.
Also, Ivalice's massive scope actually hurts the game here. It's so large, and so open, that scenes which show development are few and far between. When you spend three hours between one scene and another, it's hard for them to feel joined.
Although, looking back at it, it has some merit, at the time I played it, I loathed this speech. It seemed to come from nowhere, it wrapped up too much too fast, and it felt unnatural. His free admissions didn't seem to fit his development at that point.Vaan: How can he protect anything when he's dead? Was it different for Prince Rasler? Did that make sense? Hating the Empire, getting revenge.It's all I ever thought about. But I never did anything about it. I mean, I realized there was nothing I could do. It made me feel hollow, alone. And then I'd miss my brother. I'd say stuff like "I'm gonna be a sky pirate"... or some other stupid thing. Just anything to keep my mind off it. I was just - I was running away. I needed to get away from his death. That's why I followed you. Know what? I'm through with it. I'm through running. I'm ready to find my purpose. To find some real answers - some reasons. If I stick with you, I think I will.
Last edited by Skyblade; 09-23-2013 at 06:14 AM.
I understand this. I don't need every character in every RPG to be the epitome of cool. I'm one of the few people who stand up for Vaan! And, you know, Spiderman was a nerd, Frodo Baggins was a simple hobbit of the shire and even John Conner was a mouthy brat in T2. Not only do characters not always have to be cool and badass but simply being cool and badass does not instantly make you a good character. Neo from the Matrix movies is a terribly dull and uninteresting character despite being tradionally "cool".Characters/People don't always have to be badass, be positive, be able to pull through any situation without going down, understand everything instantly, etc.
I fully agree that Tidus does his job well at being ignorant of Spiras culture which helps the player to learn their new surrounding naturally through Tidus. But he doesn't need to be stupid to be ignorant. He doesn't need to be bad at conducting his behaviour in a new place to make him stand out as an outsider.One thing though. I feel that Tidus, on a protagonist level, does his job very, very well.
And if this works as a valid defense for Tidus, it should also be true for Vaan. We view the world through Vaans eyes. We watch things happen as he does. Everything we learn to understand about Ivalice is what Vaan learns too because we are sharing the same experience. The devs even constantly remind you of this by having Vaan try to be involved in a scene and being told to "not interupt" as if to say "You're not actually involved, sit there and watch". Vaan does his intended job well.
@the above poster
I'm rushed for time so can't reply right this second, but since you've made the effort for a detailed post, I will reply when I have a few minutes spare to do so
I'd like to make a further defense for Tidus. Yes, he is an annoying and whiny character. The thing is, that makes him a good character.
Tidus is a privileged youth. He grew up with the fame of his father, and later his own talents, which basically got him anything he wanted in society. He had tons of issues with his family, sure, but that's about it. What's more, he came from Zanarkand, which is already practically a utopia where everything is done for you and given for you (at least, in comparison to Spira).
This boy is then thrust into Spira, a world of despair and hostility, and everything begins to go wrong. His world shatters. Everything he was used to, everything he took for granted, even about the way people think and act, is gone. Not only is he a clueless newcomer who needs to be introduced to everything in the society, he is also someone from a completely different cultural mindset. He goes from being a penthouse dwelling celebrity to, essentially, a nobody commoner in a completely different world.
Not only is it necessary that he is introduced to the new world (which also serves to introduce it to the player), he has to adapt to it as well. And that adaptation would not be either easy or quick. Tidus's whining makes sense. The character is used to being privileged and entitled. He acts like a baby because he is, in essence, a baby. He never grew up, because he never had to, and, indeed, never really could. Zanarkand was such a bubble of perfection that growth and development in it were pretty much impossible. Remember what Auron said "Life outside the dream world may be harsh, but it is at least life". Tidus is having to respond and develop to this new world coming from a background which had, really, no hardship.
And Tidus does develop. It happens over the course of most of the game, sure, but even then, the game takes place over a relatively short period of time (seriously, a few months, tops, right?). His development, and even whining, while admittedly annoying, are still good characterization. It matches the characters experiences and personality at the time. Tidus's development is natural and steady, and his reaction to the bombshells dropped on him are all strong and well written.
Just because something is annoying or sounds ridiculous doesn't mean that it's bad characterization.
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I possibly need to both eloborate and better articulate my argument concerning Tidus because your response doesn't really address my problems and appears to be defending Tidus about claims I havn't made.
I didn't say Tidus was a bad character or that he doesn't get any development. Characters like Tidus exist and aren't anywhere near as hated and his development is something only an idiot would deny. My issue with him is that he's a bad protagonist. Sure, he relays information to the player well enough, but that doesn't excuse the irritating character traits that plague you for the entire game. In fact, Jecht was in pretty much the same position as Tidus but Jecht didn't whine or throw tantrums. Jecht matured by the end of his journey too and let's face it, he was a far more entertaining character.
It takes a little more than development to make a character good. You can tack on development to anyone and use it to justify them as a character. Look at Jack Sparrow. He has carried 4 movies but has zero development. You really know nothing about him but he's an entertaining character that people enjoy watching. If you're going to be spending 50+ hours with someone, don't give them every annoying trait you can think of. Make them intersting, entertaining and most important; likable. Then you can give them development.
You can't go to a FF board without seeing Tidus hate topics. This is because his character traits are universally accepted as being annoying traits. You never see an "I hate Yuna" or an "I hate Balthier" topic. That's because they aren't annoying. We could debate Balthiers development and ties to the plot (which is minimal at best - and this coming from a FFXII fan) but he's a well loved character because he's interesting and likable. A protagonist (especially in a role playing game) should be somebody you want to be (as in role play) Why SE would choose to give their lead these universally agreed annoying character traits instead of giving us a character with more likable traits is beyond me. Tidus deserves the hate he receives because of what he is, regardless of how justified his actions might be or how well he's developed.
EDIT: Regarding your previous post.
Your denial of Vaan's influence on Ashe is a little bit funny. No offence. That's because this is his major role in the story (The same as Basch, Penelo, Balthier and Frans roles actually). You'll notice that Ashe has a major scene with each main character that addresses an issue that would affect her decision regarding the Sun Cryst. Her scene with Balthier on the Phon Coast for example has very little with giving Balthier further development. It's there to have an impact on Ashe. Balthier is trying to steer her off the path of being driven and corrupted by the desire for power ("Ever lusting for power, is that how you see me?") He's had first hand experience with his father and is trying to stop her from following the same path. Her scene with Basch addresses the horrors of war, and bearing the burden of shame when failing to protect her people even when she has the opportunity to do so. She would never had destroyed the Sun Cryst (leaving herself powerless, unable to get revenge, unable to stop the empire and unable to free her people) without the lessons she learns from her companions.
If the point of Tidus's whining and tantrums was to influence Yuna, it genuinly makes me very sad that they couldn't find a better way to achieve it. Personally, I don't see Tidus's involvement myself. Yuna comes to many realizations about the corrupt organization of Yu Yevon and goes behind everyones back when dealing with Seymour (Because they would try and stop her which only shows that she's prepared to do the "right" thing always.) Rikku does her part in influencing Yuna and Auron leads them into battle with Yunalesca which has nothing to do with Tidus. But regardless, I don't have a problem with Tidus's involvement in the plot. Only that an argument can be made to extract him with minimal changes to the outcome.
Good job justifying the laughing scene. Again. with all these complex thoughts and emotions regarding their fate, you'd think the devs could do a better job in portraying it onscreen. I get the purpose behind it but it really doesn't achieve what you think it does. You've tacked all this on to an otherwise silly scene that could have portrayed their emotions far more effectively another way.
As for Vaan. He's not a sports star with an alcoholic father and a lifestyle where everything is handed to him. He's an orphan that has already had to learn to take care of himself. That's why he doesn't whine. And he's watching refugess being slaughtered and accompanying someone who intends to destroy the empire and hundreds of thousands of people. Of course he matures quickly. It isn't unnatural for such real issues to have a major impact on your thoughts and feelings. If anything, it's unnatural that it took Tidus so long to mature even when watching Sin decimate entire villages.
Last edited by Shin Gouken; 09-24-2013 at 08:28 AM.
Yuna is totally annoying.
I can see your point here, but I do disagree with it, just on personal levels and values.
A protagonist should be someone you want to be, yes. But, more than that, it should be someone you can relate to. Someone you can see yourself as.
Tidus works here because of his annoyances. Take a moment to think for a minute. How would you actually act if you were thrust into Spira? How quickly would you relate to a world filled to the brim with despair? How accepting would you be of your new circumstances? If you met Auron, how forgiving of him would you be for bringing you there, stealing your friends and life from you?
Tidus behaves in a way that I think a lot of us would if we were thrust into the position. There are a few facepalm moments (his blind idiocy on things like Macarena Temple or the "crews-of-what now?" being the worst), but on the whole, I think his story is one that you can relate to, because you can understand his feelings. Sure, looking at it from the outside, you can also bring up the bad points (bad, not unrealistic) of his character. You can point out when he's being stupid, when he's failing to accept something or figure something out. But looking at things from the outside is sometimes a little too objective. If you try to relate to him, to immerse yourself in that character, a lot of those moments make sense. They're understandable, and I can even empathize with them.
When Tidus throws his hissy fit at Auron, sure, it's awkward, whiny, and childish. So what? Think about it. If your hometown was attacked by a monster and in the middle of it all your best friend came and threw you into Spira, how would you act when you saw him again?
I like Tidus as a character because I find him realistically portrayed, well written, and well developed. I can relate to him because his circumstances and reactions are well crafted. And I can admire him because he does grow up and become a hero. That is what I look for in a protagonist.
While that's great, it still doesn't address Vaan's contribution to her decision. If he did have a similar scene, what did it teach her?Your denial of Vaan's influence on Ashe is a little bit funny. No offence. That's because this is his major role in the story (The same as Basch, Penelo, Balthier and Frans roles actually). You'll notice that Ashe has a major scene with each main character that addresses an issue that would affect her decision regarding the Sun Cryst. Her scene with Balthier on the Phon Coast for example has very little with giving Balthier further development. It's there to have an impact on Ashe. Balthier is trying to steer her off the path of being driven and corrupted by the desire for power ("Ever lusting for power, is that how you see me?") He's had first hand experience with his father and is trying to stop her from following the same path. Her scene with Basch addresses the horrors of war, and bearing the burden of shame when failing to protect her people even when she has the opportunity to do so. She would never had destroyed the Sun Cryst (leaving herself powerless, unable to get revenge, unable to stop the empire and unable to free her people) without the lessons she learns from her companions.
It wasn't his whining and tantrums. It was his nature and personality.If the point of Tidus's whining and tantrums was to influence Yuna, it genuinly makes me very sad that they couldn't find a better way to achieve it. Personally, I don't see Tidus's involvement myself. Yuna comes to many realizations about the corrupt organization of Yu Yevon and goes behind everyones back when dealing with Seymour (Because they would try and stop her which only shows that she's prepared to do the "right" thing always.) Rikku does her part in influencing Yuna and Auron leads them into battle with Yunalesca which has nothing to do with Tidus. But regardless, I don't have a problem with Tidus's involvement in the plot. Only that an argument can be made to extract him with minimal changes to the outcome.
Everyone in Spira is consumed by despair. The entire world is built on the premise that the spiral never changes. People die, Sin always comes back, summoners die, machina are bad, etcetera. Tidus, by his very nature of never being exposed to any of this, never accepts any of it. Every time he asks her "what's wrong with machina" or why is some ritual performed, it makes her question the world's circumstances. Each time he just cheerfully assumes that Yuna's going to be fine after the journey, it makes her question her own mortality and path. These questions are what drive and change her.
His whining and tantrums are just his own coping mechanisms for getting thrust into a psychotic world filled with despair and actually having to grow up.
I think the devs did do a good job of portraying it on screen. Mostly because of Wakka. It's the end of that scene that really captures its purpose. The two step back from their little scene and the rest of the party sees the. With a look of united "WTF was that?". And Wakka then says his line of "we just thought you'd gone a little crazy". And the entire scene suddenly makes sense. It was an awkward scene. It didn't fit in with regular behavior or actions. And no one tries to treat it as though it did.Good job justifying the laughing scene. Again. with all these complex thoughts and emotions regarding their fate, you'd think the devs could do a better job in portraying it onscreen. I get the purpose behind it but it really doesn't achieve what you think it does. You've tacked all this on to an otherwise silly scene that could have portrayed their emotions far more effectively another way.
The only real problem is that on a first time play through, we don't yet know that Yuna is in the same sort of situation, and needs the same sort of stress abandonment as Tidus. As soon as we get that clue, the entire scene makes sense.
If Vaan showed any of those thoughts or feelings that were developing in him, I might be fine with it. Again, at what part in the story does Vaan actually think about or come to terms with anything? He goes straight from witnessing these things to suddenly having these huge insights into character, with no actual development explaining any of it. By the time he discusses his problems with anyone, he's already worked through them, and I find that incredibly unrealistic.As for Vaan. He's not a sports star with an alcoholic father and a lifestyle where everything is handed to him. He's an orphan that has already had to learn to take care of himself. That's why he doesn't whine. And he's watching refugess being slaughtered and accompanying someone who intends to destroy the empire and hundreds of thousands of people. Of course he matures quickly. It isn't unnatural for such real issues to have a major impact on your thoughts and feelings. If anything, it's unnatural that it took Tidus so long to mature even when watching Sin decimate entire villages.
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A famous sports star isn't the best choice of character if you want them to be relatable. I wonder how many people playing FFX are rich and famous or showboating numbskulls.A protagonist should be someone you want to be, yes. But, more than that, it should be someone you can relate to. Someone you can see yourself as.
As i said, you don't need to be stupid to be ignorant. And again, Jecht is ignorant of Spira and is capable of showing his emotions without it being whiny or child like.
I've had this discussion before and the answer might surprise you. This is roughly the kind of tone you would see if i had just met Auron under the same circumstance as Tidus -Tidus works here because of his annoyances. Take a moment to think for a minute. How would you actually act if you were thrust into Spira? How quickly would you relate to a world filled to the brim with despair? How accepting would you be of your new circumstances? If you met Auron, how forgiving of him would you be for bringing you there, stealing your friends and life from you?
"Auron! Wtf man? You've got some explaining to do. Well come on, spit it out, i want answers. You realize this is all your fault?"
It's more or less the same point Tidus wishes to make, but where i'm showing impatience and anger, Tidus is throwing himself at Auron in a hissy fit. When my own personal reaction is more dignified than the protagonists, why would i want to role play as the protagonist? Let's try another one...
Temple Bloke - "Our precepts must be obeyed"
Me - "Obey this" *grabs crotch*
Hmm, not in Final Fantasy perhaps =P
Perhaps this is the problem. People have difficulty immersing themselves into Tidus's character because he's not very likable. I personally have difficulty immersing myself into a character i don't like. But i also have difficulty pretending to be a character that makes it look like i have a better chance of saving the world myself. I want to be Auron, or Jecht, hell, even Wakka.If you try to relate to him, to immerse yourself in that character, a lot of those moments make sense. They're understandable, and I can even empathize with them.
Hmm. I don't know any adults who throw tantrums like Tidus does. Can we be honest for a second here... his actions are what you would expect from a child. Adults can control their behaviour in public even in a place they are unfamiliar with... in fact more so in a place they are unfamiliar with. What if the punishment for entering the forbidden place in the temple was death. Short game. Tidus doesn't know where he is and has already been abducted by the Al Bhed at that point. There's being stupid and then there's Tidus.I like Tidus as a character because I find him realistically portrayed, well written, and well developed. I can relate to him because his circumstances and reactions are well crafted. And I can admire him because he does grow up and become a hero. That is what I look for in a protagonist.
Gabranth: You claim no need of power? What of your broken Kingdoms shame? The dead demand justice!While that's great, it still doesn't address Vaan's contribution to her decision. If he did have a similar scene, what did it teach her?
Vaan: You're wrong. I can't help my brother now. He's gone. He's dead.
Ashe: Even with power we cannot change what has passed. What is done is done.
Vaan helps her overcome her own desire for revenge by overcoming his. Vaan overcomes his desire for revenge when he realizes that there's a war coming and people are dying. The real world hits him hard and revenge is the last thing on his mind. Gabranth shows up and Ashe drops the Sword of Kings and raises the Treaty Blade ready to fight Gabranth. But Vaan, despite being confronted with his brothers killer, does not fight.
If you watch the scene at the Pharos, after this line...
Gabranth: No, we cannot escape the past, this man is living proof. What is your past, daughter of Dalmasca? Did you not swear revenge? Do the dead not demand it!
Ashe looks at Vaan. She holds his gaze for a full 18 seconds without a single line of dialogue. She swore revenge and is being prodded by Gabranth to take it. But it is Vaan that holds her back.
Makes sense. My only problem with it is that i simply don't buy that Auron would have stood and watched as Braskas daughter and Jechts son fell to the same fate as their parents. Auron died trying to avenge his friends. He blames Yunalesca and tried to kill her once already. He lead them into battle with her fully intending to kill her. And again, why in hell would he have witheld all this information? Was it because he didn't want to interfere with her choice? Or more likley, if she had found out before, she'd never of made it to Zanarkand.Everyone in Spira is consumed by despair. The entire world is built on the premise that the spiral never changes. People die, Sin always comes back, summoners die, machina are bad, etcetera. Tidus, by his very nature of never being exposed to any of this, never accepts any of it. Every time he asks her "what's wrong with machina" or why is some ritual performed, it makes her question the world's circumstances. Each time he just cheerfully assumes that Yuna's going to be fine after the journey, it makes her question her own mortality and path. These questions are what drive and change her.
Pretending to laugh to reflect on darker emotions is a fine idea, it's the execution that robs that scene of any impact it was intended to make. It doesn't sound like forced laughter, it sounds like someone is falling down a very large set of stairs - "Ah ah ah ah ah ah ah". <_< You know it's true.I think the devs did do a good job of portraying it on screen.
Right, because people don't work through their problems in their heads. Nope, everything must be resolved by talking about it to people and then, and only then will your problems magically be resolved. Do you honestly think that spending some time in a dungeon, being attacked by headhunters and being held prisoner on a warship had no impact on him just because he didn't have a heart to heart with Penelo or Balthier about it? This isn't Vaans story and we therefore don't get a long detailed path of development layed out for us. His character learns and he changes. We can see it happen (iirc other characters point this out but i'm drawing a blank on specifics). It sounds very much like you want Vaans development (the way it is executed i mean) to mimic Tidus's. It doesn't. If that hurts the story for you and prevents you from understanding Vaan, perhaps you'd be suited with a book rather than an RPG. You experience everything Vaan experiences so you should automatically have an idea of how he's feeling.
Hmm, now it's my turn to put you in Vaans shoes. (You cruelly made me do it for Tidus =p) Your parents are dead and the only thing you have left in the world is your brother. He goes to war and is killed. You can't understand why he would go to war when their is no chance he could possibly win and you can't ask him because he's dead. You want to make the people responsible suffer but are powerless to do so. So instead, you distract yourself with dreams of being free. Your chosen path leads you to being hunted by the headhunters, being thrown in a dungeon, being caught by the empire, watching your trusted allies betray you, watching the empire slaughter dozens of refugees, witnessing the destructive force of nethicite etc. Tell me... is revenge still the most important thing to you? If it is, perhaps this is your problem
What the smurf, guys. xD
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