That's the main point this game is making, in my opinion. In war, even if the cause is noble, a lot of people taking part in it will do so for bad reasons. And while she's a sadist and he's very violent, Holly and Barras do have a softer, more honorable side, which can best be seen in worlds 3 and 4. Ominas also gets to show a more human side there. All these characters are pretty layered, even if they do reprehensible things. That's what makes this the most interesting to me, to be honest.
I'll add in Kyoko to the list of good guys. Sure, she's an Assassin, but apparently she felt bad about her actions, considering it a personal failing that she couldn't save the Fire Vestal, as well as accepting her death as justice for her actions.
And that is important. You may have to do evil things for a good reason. That's what the entire Eisengard arc is about. Fighting a war, and the utter evils of warfare, while also showing that doing nothing would be worse. That entire story is about Agnes coming to the realization that sometimes war needs to be fought, and even someone dedicated to a peaceful life needs to help where she can.
As Kamiizumi says, the wind vestal is, in a way, the same as the Grand Marshall. Both hold true to their mission and ideals and fight for them.
The difference is in the mission and ideals each character holds. Smurf, man, look at the sort of people who become officers, even high commanders, of your forces. Look at what your mission actually is, or what it entails.
I don't care how good your intentions are, when you need to institutionalize the rape of an entire nation, you are not the good guys (no, I still haven't beaten it, so please don't detail an explanation if the game gives one, but I fail to see how that can ever be ok).
When Qada is the least sadistic of your healers, you are not the good guys. Qada was a completely amoral scientist, but was doing things for experimentation or victory. Holly breaks people's minds for fun, and Victor enjoys people being hurt, as long as he can keep Victoria ok.
When even your "noble" officers are slaughtering non-combatants in the street without qualms, you are not the good guys.
And when individuals who delight in causing pain, murdering people outright, torturing their coworkers, and who lack even a facade of empathy can rise to be your lieutenants and closest advisors, you are not the good guy.
Good intentions only go so far. Eternia is frelled up from top to bottom.
Also, characters in other worlds would be an alternative version. They are not the same individual, and thus their rationale cannot be proof of what the original believes, anymore than that holds true for the Star Trek characters from the "evil" dimension (for example).
The problem I have isn't that a lot of them take part for bad reasons, it's that most of them do. And worse yet, there really is no reason to allow these bad things to happen. How does Ominous torching civilian homes help matters any? What good does sending people like Victoria out, who has shown an inablility to not kill people she isn't suppose to be killing out serve? Most of these horrible things that are happening don't serve the Braev's purpose in the slightest, yet still he just lets them happen.
For Braev, the end justifies the means. And that is the main problem here. He orders killing innocent Crystalists, even if they pose no threat, if that's what it takes to stop the religion from spreading. I never said they were the good guys - this game really gets morally gray. While Braev is ruthless, his motives are understandable, and though that makes us see him as human, it doesn't make his acts and commands any less reprehensible. The other world versions are the same characters, to me, just molded slightly differently by the circumstances. Plus, those stories do give more insight into their entire characters. Take Mephilia. It later turns out she was a psychotic nihilist due to the loss of her lover. In world 4 she's stable, as she has the drive to come to terms with his death.
Also, can we talk about one more thing? Am I the only one who saw the Ringabel reveal from miles away?
...That he came from another world, or that he was Dim? Cause I don't think there was any foreshadowing to multiple worlds, unless I missed it entirely. I didn't see that one coming, no. Only the Airy twist.
And yeah, I disagree that it is morally grey in the slightest. THe ends may justify the means, but the problem is the means that are employed half the time don't aid him towards his end. There is no grey area here, what he is doing and allowing to be done is down right wrong. Allowing bad things to happen in the name of the greater good only works when they are necessary for your goal, or at the very least help it.
This was probably more bad writing on the part of the designers then their intent, or at least that's my guess. Mind you, there is still plenty of the game that is written well, but that is just a weak spot of writing for me.
But he believes what he is doing is right and, to some degree, it is. He wants the Orthodoxy to fall for his own personal vindictive reasons, but he also knows what will happen if the Crystals get awoken, so he sees this as a means of preventing that. But, like I said, though killing innocent believers will at one point put an end to the religion, it is an extremely heinous act. I think it's gray, even if a very dark shade, because, ultimately, he believes he's doing the world good and, to a certain degree, one might argue that he is, considering that if the party wasn't there, awakening the Crystals would have been much worse than letting them stay dark.
And yes, I meant Dim. The voice sounded familiar, and that moment when he first appears on the Eschalot and Ringabel oh-so-conveniently has to go belowdecks. That was a dead giveaway for me.
If the characters are forged through different circumstances, how are they the same characters? If one Mephilia is an insane sadist, and the other is a strong, driven woman, how can you say they are the same person. They may have started from the same point, but they grew up into different results. And our world has to deal with its own people. The fact that we may all be nicer people in another dimension doesn't excuse someone from being a sadistic mass murderer in this one.
Also, it's really sounding more and more to me like the writing fell apart just so that Square could make religion the nemesis. Again. The story may do a good job of setting up the Anti-Crystalists as sympathetic villains, but as soon as you try to make them not villains, it becomes an epic failure.
It actually doesn't set up religion as a nemesis. The only nemesis is Airy, and she's more a false prophet than anything else. It just makes you question your motives a bit, which I find pretty clever. The Anti-Crystalists are not made to be completely sympathetic, but human. The church is corrupt, but the religion isn't wrong. I love it.
Then wiping Crystalists off the map is not an acceptable course of action, which both of you made it out to be.Originally Posted by The White Wizard of Fynn
Also, I got the Dim thing the first time I read through the journal (which took a bit, I wasn't aware of how the multi-page entries worked at first, and only read the first page of each). It's incredibly obvious that it is Dim's journal, which makes Ringabel's identity extremely suspect.
Ooh, so is Dark Knight Ringabel just literally Dim?
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No, I never said it is. I mean, from the point of view of Braev, who thinks ending Crystalism will save the world, it is. I said it twice already, I think, that I consider that reprehensible, but Braev's reasoning is also justified. The way he goes about it is all kinds of wrong, however. Ending the religion may not be the only way to "save" the world, but it is the best in the eyes of Braev, especially considering his personal vendetta. So once again, let me stress, I think Braev was wrong for killing innocent Crystalists, but he considered it the best course of action for saving the world.
And the game never really says Crystalists are wrong. It says the Orthodoxy is corrupt, true, but not awakening the Crystals still has great global consequences. So both sides are right to some degree. The problem is that neither wants to listen and see the bigger picture.
Also, Skyblade, what are you doing here if you haven't finished the game yet?You'll ruin all the fun for yourself.
I opened the forum up this morning while half asleep, thought I was in the Lightning Returns forum, checked out an ending thread, and was spoiled before I realized my mistake (when NeoCracker basically opened the thread with the line "Airy is the villain"). The damage is done.No, I never said it is. I mean, from the point of view of Braev, who thinks ending Crystalism will save the world, it is. I said it twice already, I think, that I consider that reprehensible, but Braev's reasoning is also justified. The way he goes about it is all kinds of wrong, however. Ending the religion may not be the only way to "save" the world, but it is the best in the eyes of Braev, especially considering his personal vendetta. So once again, let me stress, I think Braev was wrong for killing innocent Crystalists, but he considered it the best course of action for saving the world.
And the game never really says Crystalists are wrong. It says the Orthodoxy is corrupt, true, but not awakening the Crystals still has great global consequences. So both sides are right to some degree. The problem is that neither wants to listen and see the bigger picture.
Also, Skyblade, what are you doing here if you haven't finished the game yet?
Neither wants to listen? When did the Eternians ever try to talk or explain anything?
For that matter, if Airy is the primary villain, how is the Orthodoxy corrupt, when the Orthodoxy has no connection to Airy (since even devout Crystalists, or even Olivia, the other Vestal, don't recognize Airy)?
She says she's a Cryst-Fairy and the scriptures tell Crystalists to follow the guidance of Cryst-Fairies. Like I said, she's a false prophet. She has nothing to do with the Orthodoxy, she just makes the religion look evil, which it isn't.
For the corrupt church, just do the vampire castle quest. I know a lot of things you already have spoiled for yourself, but the story there is really interesting, so I'll just leave it unspoiled for you.
I don't know, it would be hard pressed to beat the sheer awesomeness of Kyoko's quest (even if I did call that one really early). I wonder what job I'll get. Can't get a Vampire Hunter job, because there are no whips in the game (nor characters named Belmont).
But I think I got my main complaints addressed, so I'll be back later. I have to go kill Victor and Victoria.
It's almost best to see Crytalism Vs. Anti-Crystalism as some thing that happened, but really isn't a problem anymore. The Crystalism Eternia is against isn't really what Agnes is part of, they just assume she is at first.
...There are some odd issues with this plot all is said and done.
I was looking through Ringabel's diary/ journal thing and saw a picture of Dim holding a young boy's hand. So had to assume that Dim/ Ringabel, or that they were brothers, related, or something.
I opened the forum up this morning while half asleep, thought I was in the Lightning Returns forum, checked out an ending thread, and was spoiled before I realized my mistake (when NeoCracker basically opened the thread with the line "Airy is the villain"). The damage is done.
Sorry ;A;
Should of waited a bit longer to do this, but was just so annoyed with how good the game was, and then dropped everything to basically try and make the game longer.
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