Continuing the P3/Canon discussion

[Mirage]

Well, I have P3FES and P3P and I enjoy both games. I think there's not too few that feel the same as I do. That said, I didn't pay for P3P so it can't not be worth it when the cost was 0. I think I would have bought it if I had no other choice, though.

[Skyblade]

Also, your point wasn't that there was a single timeline that ATLUS was following, but rather that anything that wasn't being directly carried over or expanded upon in later games wasn't worth playing.

Not worth buying P3P if you've already played through FES. That was my point.

It isn't a point you've made well. Heck, part of the reason they built the Female Main Character was to supply a new and different experience to people who already played Persona 3 and FES.

That because in Persona 4 Arena and Persona Q, the main character of Persona 3 is male, the female main character story doesn't count. Similarly, I guess, Marie's story in Persona 4 Golden doesn't matter, since she wasn't mentioned, nor were any of the events in her story.

Marie is in Persona Q, so she is most likely canon.

And what about the other new features, like the third tier Personas for the Investigation Team? Again, in Persona 4 Arena, they're still using the First Tier Personas, so I guess the others are non-canon, and therefore not worth it.

I guess we can assume that Yu didn't max the Social Links with any of the Investigation Team, since none of them had their final Personas in Persona 4 Arena (even Teddy, who you have to max to beat the game).

I believe that Atlus has stated this was a design choice rather than a plot element.

The fact that the Persona 3 protagonist was restricted to the male main character was also a design choice. It was due to a lack of ability/resources to completely rewrite the story going forward for both the male and female main character. They had to choose a single path going forward, they needed some way to refer to the character, but it wasn't meant to declare that the female main character was not a part of the story.

Exactly the same way in which the inability to adjust Persona 4 Arena's story to take into account seven different romance options, so they chose a path to go forward as a design decision, rather than a plot one.

I guess that Yu didn't romance anyone, since there is no romantic indications given in any of his interactions in Persona 4 Arena.

Nothing is said either way. It's left up in the air.

And if they could have left the male/female up in the air, they would've. But they really couldn't.

You (Bright Shield, that is) seem to be extremely focused on what is canon and not, and it seems to me that you think the only content in a game that matters is the content that later ends up canon (but excuse me if I mistaken about this).

Not saying that at all. I get every possible outcome, so I can see everything. I was saying that I don't think P3P is worth it if someone has already completed FES. This is due to P3P missing a chunk of the canon story, and replacing it with a filler scenario. Not worth it to me.

So you'd rather see an inferior chunk of writing that you've already seen before than see a new (and entirely in-canon) take on the story that you haven't seen, and that has superior writing?

[Bright Shield]

It isn't a point you've made well. Heck, part of the reason they built the Female Main Character was to supply a new and different experience to people who already played Persona 3 and FES.

I can say the same to you. The female MC adds a few new dialogue options, and social links. Not worth the price, by any means. You can easily just watch the new content on Youtube. It's literally less than an hour's worth of content. There's no real reason to play the game again for that, unless you are a hardcore fan.

And what about the other new features, like the third tier Personas for the Investigation Team? Again, in Persona 4 Arena, they're still using the First Tier Personas, so I guess the others are non-canon, and therefore not worth it.

You missed what I said. Atlus has stated it was a style choice only. I can probably find the interview if I look for it, but it'll be a pain...

The fact that the Persona 3 protagonist was restricted to the male main character was also a design choice. It was due to a lack of ability/resources to completely rewrite the story going forward for both the male and female main character. They had to choose a single path going forward, they needed some way to refer to the character, but it wasn't meant to declare that the female main character was not a part of the story.

You can't make that assumption, without an official statement backing it up. Not to mention that it would have been all too easy for Atlus to be vague about this in Arena. All they had to do was say "guest", instead of "him", and not show the Male MC in the flipping credits... lol.

And if they could have left the male/female up in the air, they would've. But they really couldn't.

Of course they could have. It would have been all too easy. Like I said, just use "guest" instead of "him". And don't show the male mc in the credits.



So you'd rather see an

inferior chunk of writing that you've already seen before than see a new (and entirely in-canon) take on the story that you haven't seen, and that has superior writing?

You're exaggerating again. I'd rather get hours of canon story and actual GAMEPLAY, than a fantasy scenario(which by the way is only marginally different than the male path). Superior writing? lol, not at all, that's subjective. The male mc story is the true canon version. Just accept it. You're the only one denying it. At this point you sound like a female MC fanboy, lol.

[Skyblade]

It isn't a point you've made well. Heck, part of the reason they built the Female Main Character was to supply a new and different experience to people who already played Persona 3 and FES.

I can say the same to you. The female MC adds a few new dialogue options, and social links. Not worth the price, by any means. You can easily just watch the new content on Youtube. It's literally less than an hour's worth of content. There's no real reason to play the game again for that, unless you are a hardcore fan.

You do realize that Social Links are about half the gameplay of the Persona games, right?

Oh, that's right, you don't. You don't realize that there are choices to make in them or different paths to take with them, because you are completely obsessed with everything only having a single valid path, and eliminating all choice in the game's story.

And what about the other new features, like the third tier Personas for the Investigation Team? Again, in Persona 4 Arena, they're still using the First Tier Personas, so I guess the others are non-canon, and therefore not worth it.

You missed what I said. Atlus has stated it was a style choice only. I can probably find the interview if I look for it, but it'll be a pain...

The fact that the Persona 3 protagonist was restricted to the male main character was also a design choice. It was due to a lack of ability/resources to completely rewrite the story going forward for both the male and female main character. They had to choose a single path going forward, they needed some way to refer to the character, but it wasn't meant to declare that the female main character was not a part of the story.

You can't make that assumption, without an official statement backing it up. Not to mention that it would have been all too easy for Atlus to be vague about this in Arena. All they had to do was say "guest", instead of "him", and not show the Male MC in the flipping credits... lol.

And if they could have left the male/female up in the air, they would've. But they really couldn't.

Of course they could have. It would have been all too easy. Like I said, just use "guest" instead of "him". And don't show the male mc in the credits.

I do remember hearing a statement about it somewhere, though I can't find it now. Perhaps more interesting, however, is that Persona 4 Golden changed the reference to the main character of Persona 3 from a specifically male reference, to a general term in the Japanese version (even if the localization team missed this change).

Also, Arc Systems started development on Persona 4 Arena before the release of Persona 3 Portable, so...

So you'd rather see an inferior chunk of writing that you've already seen before than see a new (and entirely in-canon) take on the story that you haven't seen, and that has superior writing?

You're exaggerating again. I'd rather get hours of canon story and actual GAMEPLAY, than a fantasy scenario(which by the way is only marginally different than the male path). Superior writing? lol, not at all, that's subjective. The male mc story is the true canon version. Just accept it. You're the only one denying it. At this point you sound like a female MC fanboy, lol.

"Canon".

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

And you're starting to sound like a dismissive, argumentative brat who falls back on mocking tones and mindless repetition when the discussion doesn't go his way.

You can just watch all the Social Links on YouTube, why even bother playing the game? Heck, you can watch The Answer's "new content" there. Although you'll probably have to find a Let's Play, because no one figures that the combat is worth recording on its own, except for the Erebus fight.

Also, as long as I'm here:

Well, personally, I don't think that The Answer is written as well as the rest of the game is.

I don't disagree.

Writing quality may be subjective, but that doesn't mean that everyone can't agree that The Answer's writing was inferior, even you. And, yeah, most people who've played it would agree that Shinjiro's Social Link beats the Gourmet King's hands down, and that this trend continues for all of the Female Main character's Social Links. The ones that were rewritten were among the worst in Persona 3.

Also, I'm not exactly a Female Main Character fan boy. As I said, my personal story is the male main character's. But I am a massive fan of interactive storytelling (as is ATLUS), and I feel that restricting your story out of some fear that you aren't following the "official" story is outright STUPID. The choices and options are there for a reason. Your story is your own.

[Bright Shield]

You do realize that Social Links are about half the gameplay of the Persona games, right?

Oh, that's right, you don't. You don't realize that there are choices to make in them or different paths to take with them, because you are completely obsessed with everything only having a single valid path, and eliminating all choice in the game's story.

There are tons of choices. Only some of them can be official though. End of story.

The fact that the Persona 3 protagonist was restricted to the male main character was also a design choice. It was due to a lack of ability/resources to completely rewrite the story going forward for both the male and female main character. They had to choose a single path going forward, they needed some way to refer to the character, but it wasn't meant to declare that the female main character was not a part of the story.

Like I said, using the word "guest" would have sufficed.

I do remember hearing a statement about it somewhere, though I can't find it now. Perhaps more interesting, however, is that Persona 4 Golden changed the reference to the main character of Persona 3 from a specifically male reference, to a general term in the Japanese version (even if the localization team missed this change).

Indeed, that is a point in your favor. However, Arena blatantly showing the male MC, along with only the male MC appearing in Persona Q brings us back to square one.

Also, Arc Systems started development on Persona 4 Arena before the release of Persona 3 Portable, so...

The writer was the same for both games though, and he clearly had the Female MC's route all done by then.

"Canon".

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

And I think you're too stubborn to admit what it means. =P

And you're starting to sound like a dismissive, argumentative brat who falls back on mocking tones and mindless repetition when the discussion doesn't go his way.

lol, this is hilarious coming from you. You are arguing merely for the sake of arguing at this point.

You can just watch all the Social Links on YouTube, why even bother playing the game?

Worst argument ever. P3P is almost the exact same game as P3 story-wise. Save for a few new dialogue choices, and new social links. That hardly warrants playing through the entire thing again, unless you are already a huge fan. There's maybe an hour's worth of new content... at the very most...

Heck, you can watch The Answer's "new content" there. Although you'll probably have to find a Let's Play, because no one figures that the combat is worth recording on its own, except for the Erebus fight.

The Answer offers many hours of actual gameplay, and Persona 3 is you know... a game. Not the same as minimal dialogue differences and a few new scenes to watch.

Writing quality may be subjective, but that doesn't mean that everyone can't agree that The Answer's writing was inferior, even you.

Well of course it's inferior to the main story, lol. That's not even a fair comparison. It's not badly written by any means though.

And, yeah, most people who've played it would agree that Shinjiro's Social Link beats the Gourmet King's hands down, and that this trend continues for all of the Female Main character's Social Links. The ones that were rewritten were among the worst in Persona 3.

You keep using the Gourmet King as an example. Like I said, The Sun is the best, deepest, and most thought provoking social link in P3, and it's an NPC social link.

Also, I'm not exactly a Female Main Character fan boy. As I said, my personal story is the male main character's. But I am a massive fan of interactive storytelling (as is ATLUS), and I feel that restricting your story out of some fear that you aren't following the "official" story is outright STUPID. The choices and options are there for a reason. Your story is your own.

I bolded it for you this time. Yes, YOUR story is your own. The official story is dictated by Atlus though. That's what I'm trying to get through to you.

[Bright Shield]

There is some good news for me at least. Persona Q was confirmed to be canon, thus confirming Female MC as non canon(this should have been obvious Skyblade). I just love being right. =P

[Skyblade]

There is some good news for me at least. Persona Q was confirmed to be canon, thus confirming Female MC as non canon(this should have been obvious Skyblade). I just love being right. =P

Yet you still don't understand what the word "canon" means.

[Wolf Kanno]

Technically the Amala Network from SMTIII means she can be canon since Persona is still connected to the SMT Timeline.

[Bright Shield]

Yet you still don't understand what the word "canon" means.

I'm afraid that's you my friend. The very fact that you think there can be "multiple canons" confirms that.

Technically the Amala Network from SMTIII means she can be canon since Persona is still connected to the SMT Timeline.

Yes, this means that she can exist in some sort of alternate universe. However, I've made it insanely clear to Skyblade(in a different topic) that I'm referring to the time line that Atlus is following. Female MC does not exist in the official Persona continuity. Thus she is non canon to the over arching story. Atlus has opted to stick with the male MC.

[Skyblade]

Canonicity is merely a term used to represent veracity with respect to author's intentions for the material. Female Main Character was put in specifically to provide another facet to the story. In other words, specifically to expand the "canon" material.

There is not "multiple canons". Canon is an inclusive term of everything that the writers believe contributes to the overall universe they are building.

Non-canon includes things like the Chie beef bowl brawl with Akihiko or Yukiko's lunch box obsession. Things never developed to be an actual part of the world, but just for fun.

[Bright Shield]

I'm referring specifically to the Persona 3 continuity. In which, the female MC does not exist. Her timeline ends after P3P. The male protagonist's path is what leads into all the sequels. Thus he is the only one that is canon to the current timeline.

Persona Q is confirmed canon, and there is no female MC. The plot involves time travel and memory loss to tie into the Persona continuity, but it still connects directly to both P3 and P4.

SomeoneI know posted a timeline chart to reflect this.


Timeline 1 aka the Short One


Persona 1: Snow Queen Quest followed by SEBEC quest (1996) --> Persona 2: Innocent Sin (1999)...end of timeline (Innocent Sin is still canon, but it's story is what basically created Timeline's 2 and 3)



Timeline 2 aka the(mostly) Non-Canon One


Persona 1: Snow Queen Quest followed by SEBEC quest (1996) --> Persona 2: Eternal Punishment --> Persona 3 Portable FeMC Route (2009-2010) --> Persona: Trinity Soul (2019)...end of timeline.



Timeline 3 aka the Official One


Persona 1: Snow Queen Quest followed by SEBEC quest (1996) --> Persona 2: Eternal Punishment (1999) --> Persona 3 FES 04/06 - 09/20 (2009) --> Persona Q --> Persona 3 FES 09/21 - 3/05 (2009-2010) --> Persona 3 FES: The Answer (2010) --> Persona 4 Golden 04/11-10/29 (2011) --> Persona Q --> Persona 4 Golden 10/30-03/21 (2011-2012) --> Persona 4 Arena (2012) --> Persona 4 Arena Ultimax (2012) --> Persona 4 Golden Epilogue (Summer 2012) --> Persona 4: Dancing All Night --> Persona 5?


I'm saying that female MC is non canon to timeline 3, and she isn't. Also since Q involves time travel it exists in the timeline twice. You'll see when you play it.

[Shauna]

Okay, I've merged this conversation in with the other thread you made to discuss this exact thing. I'll ask that you don't derail every Persona thread that comes about with this discussion.

[Bright Shield]

Okay, I've merged this conversation in with the other thread you made to discuss this exact thing. I'll ask that you don't derail every Persona thread that comes about with this discussion.

Thanks. And yeah, my bad. I only brought it up since Persona Q was just confirmed as canon.

[Wolf Kanno]

I'm afraid I have to go along with Skyblade on this about your misinterpretation of "canon". See, FemMC is canon cause she is confirmed to exist though not necessarily in the main timeline. For her to be non-canon, Atlus would have to basically say "Oh, P3P? Yeah that didn't happen." which as far as I know they have only said this about Persona Trinity and possibly the Naoto Side Story Manga since P4 Golden and the P4 Arena series has made it incompatible with P4's timeline without basically saying some of those events changed.

She has also been featured in more than just P3P as she has her own series of Drama CDs and her story is part of the P3 Stage Play in Japan which tells both characters story. She may not necessarily appear in an future Persona projects but its not the same as saying she's non-canon. I mean the Amala Network and SMTIV pretty much establish that all endings in the SMT universe (SMT, Persona, Devil Summoner, etc...) are actually canon despite the fact that SMT2 continues from SMT1's Neutral ending. It's kind of Atlus' Author's Saving Throw to validate player choice. I think you're simply confusing canon with continuity. She can exist in the canon, and not be part of the main continuity.

A case in point is that Innocent Sin is canon, there is no and ifs or buts about it because Eternal Punishment can't happen without it. Especially since Tatsuya, who plays an integral part of it all, is from the IS Timeline. The other issue is that while Philemon and some shout outs prove that Persona 3 and 4 are connected to the earlier installments, there is no evidence to suggest that they are part of the same timeline, for all we know, P3 could come from a third timeline, possibly one where IS ended with the party actually stopping Nyarlarthotep as opposed to what really happened. Hell they could even come from a timeline where P1 and P2 didn't happen but the characters from those timelines still exist in the P3 timeline, it still wouldn't mean they are non-canon.

To bring this back to the greater issue, the Persona franchise itself is from a split timeline from SMT where the events of SMT if... happened instead of the events of SMT1, the entire Persona and non-Raidou Devil Summoners all exist in this split off universe which itself has multiple timelines from crazy trout like letting a god reset the world cause your party blew it. They are all still technically part of the same SMT Multiverse, hell the SMT line of games themselves are all canon despite three of the games dealing with different scenarios of the same deal. This is because all the games are in different timelines yet they still keep pushing forward an overall story because the figures who can freely traverse the multiverse can see all the different worlds and respond to them. In a similar manner, Philemon and Nyalarthotep can do this as well since they are Persona's equivalents of gods and confirmed that IS and EP both happened despite taking place in two different timelines. The issue here is that the Persona universe and SMT universe confirm the existence of a multiverse with different timelines and worlds. Just because the main continuity chooses to follow one timeline doesn't mean the others are non-canon, it just means its easier to follow that one (especially since its the one that brought in all the fans and is more recognizable) and also that Atlus doesn't really give a smurf about this trout like its nerdy fanbase does. I doubt we'll ever see a real Persona timeline cause I feel the design team doesn't feel its important. Then again, I could be wrong who knows?

[Bright Shield]

I'm talking about canon to the current timeline. While Q has established beyond a shadow of a doubt, that she doesn't exist at all in the continuity. Hence why she is non canon to the overall story. She only exists in P3P.

This debate started in a different topic when I said that there's no point to buying P3P if you've already played FES, since P3P removes The Answer(which is integral to the continuity). The debate led to Skyblade eventually stating that the Female MC might be the official path for all we know. I posted this new info on PQ to show once and for all that female MC does not exist in the Persona canon(continuity-wise). Thus you get a lot more bang for your buck with FES.

P3P has two scenarios that are mostly the same with a few different social links.

FES gets two vastly different scenarios. All together it's the Journey(along with anime movies), the Answer, Arena, Ultimax, and Persona Q.

That's what I was getting at. FES is the most complete version of P3, and the one that you need to play in order to understand the full story. P3P was for fans that wanted to experience a fun alternate scenario. Which will most likely never be referenced in any of the games.