Continuing the P3/Canon discussion

[Bright Shield]

Finally got back to my PC.

A one version of a game isn't necessarily perfect just because it's canon. That makes it canon, not perfect. The main story is just one part of the game. My point still stands, P3FES it still not perfect.

I never called it perfect. No game is perfect. I'm a much bigger fan of P4 anyway.

Oh yeah, i forgot to mention earlier that it also has gameplay improvements.
Of course, P3P isn't perfect either, as it lacks The Answer and it also has poorer graphics.

The battle system is better in P3P. However, exploration has been dumbed down to visual novel style, and the cutscenes were removed and reduced to stills. Not being able to really walk around was a major turn off.

Well, personally, I don't think that The Answer is written as well as the rest of the game is.

I don't disagree.

Also, you don't actually need The Answer to understand the plot of Persona 3, the game stands on its own.

True, however you need it to understand a few things in P4:Arena. Remember that this whole thing is coming from the mindset of the TC having already played P3:FES. Now I see where this misunderstanding is coming from.

Remember, I said that P3P is the best PSP game. However, if you've already played FES then there is no real reason to get P3P(since you've already experienced all the canon plot points, including the Answer which leads into P4:Arena). P3P is only for new comers, or people that completely love P3 and want to try out a different fantasy scenario(with all of the major plot points in tact). That's how I saw it at least, and all I was getting at.

Is it worth giving up on the superior writing of the Female Main Character's Social Links? Purely subjective.

I gotta disagree with this. The Sun social link is by far the deepest and most thought provoking social link in P3, and it was around long before the female MC. Besides, the main characters get developed well enough in the story. I'd rather get to learn the NPCs in social links.

It's hardly easy if you aren't following a guide, as a single incorrect answer can still completely screw it up. Also, in the original Persona 3, before FES came out, you had absolutely zero lapse time in your schedule to max every Social Link. It was fan obsession and calculation that even determined it was possible, it wasn't built that way (which is also why the max Social Link Fusion items would carry over to the next game, because you weren't supposed to be able to get them all at once). You needed to follow an extremely set schedule, and answer every question absolutely correctly. When FES rolled around, ATLUS took note of those fans, and the number of people who wanted to complete all the Social Links in a single story, and added in more spare time, and a reward for getting them all (Orpheus Telos).

Ah yes, you are correct. It's been so long since I've played the original that I had forgotten.

There is no canon in these stories except what you want. If you choose to let the world end, there's your canon. If you choose to whore the male Main Character out to every potential romance, there's your canon. If you choose to not romance anyone, that's acceptable canon too. If you choose to not defeat Elizabeth or even open the Monad depths, that can be canon as well. Play a complete loner and never expand a Social Link beyond the ones the game forces on you. Perfectly acceptable canon.

Only Atlus decides canon, not us fans. Besides, by that logic, no game has a canon story. In Super Mario Bros. I can jump in a hole, and allow Bowser to keep Peach forever. Canon-wise Mario saves her though.

Yes.

Nice, a fellow fan of all the games. That makes me, you, and NeoCracker. Anyone else?

How'd you like the P2 duology?

Also, it's more like adding a chapter *after* disc 3 of FF7 in a later edition of the game, not cutting the existing game off at disc 2.

I'll concede this. You are right Mirage.

[Mirage]

Finally got back to my PC.

A one version of a game isn't necessarily perfect just because it's canon. That makes it canon, not perfect. The main story is just one part of the game. My point still stands, P3FES it still not perfect.

I never called it perfect. No game is perfect. I'm a much bigger fan of P4 anyway.

Oh yeah, i forgot to mention earlier that it also has gameplay improvements.
Of course, P3P isn't perfect either, as it lacks The Answer and it also has poorer graphics.

The battle system is better in P3P. However, exploration has been dumbed down to visual novel style, and the cutscenes were removed and reduced to stills. Not being able to really walk around was a major turn off.

Yeah, you didn't say it was perfect, I just mentioned that to let the OP know that all versions have their drawbacks. My point was just that if there was a version of P3 with the FES stuff, female main character, the gameplay improvements of P3P and none of the grpahical downgrades, that would be much closer to a perfect P3 version than any of the versions that currently are available.

Of course, some of the graphical downgrades in P3P are probably because of performance concerns. While the PSP could easily have been able to display all the slink scenes and exploration in 3D like on the PS2, using 2D graphics saves a lot of processing power, which in turn saves a lot of battery. I think the changes were mainly to improve battery life, which is kind of understandable. The lack of anime cutscenes is probably because they didn't have the time/money to redo them entirely with a female instead of a male in them.

I really hope they add the option to choose between a male and a female main character in P5, though. It adds replay value, and it's interesting to see different perspectives.

Just for the record, I haven't played most SMT games, but I plan on at least completing all of the persona games in time. I have all the pre-PS2 ones on my PSP, so it's just a matter of time. All depends on how much idle time I get at work . I might dive into other SMT games, but I haven't got much experience with them. I played SMT3 Nocturne or whatever, but that's it.

[NeoCracker]

If you have a DS, I highly recomend Devil Survivor 2 if you ever get the chance, but that's another topic.

I never bothered with P3P because it lacked the Answer, so I can't really say I'm the best judge here. But Aegis being my favorite character from P3, I am hugely biased here as well.

And yeah, Male Protaganist is most definately canon, though really that's kind if irrelevant to the quality of one over the other.

[Mirage]

I'm planning on getting a 3DS, but I'm annoyed that there won't be any SMT4 for me if i get one that is european.

[Mo-Nercy]

The only version of P3 I've played is P3P and I still thought it was awesome.

[Skyblade]

Finally got back to my PC.

A one version of a game isn't necessarily perfect just because it's canon. That makes it canon, not perfect. The main story is just one part of the game. My point still stands, P3FES it still not perfect.

I never called it perfect. No game is perfect. I'm a much bigger fan of P4 anyway.

No, you called it the "definitive" version.

Definitive:
most reliable or complete, as of a text, author, criticism, study, or the like:

Which, since it lacks all the content for the female main character, is quite debatable. There's probably more content in the female version than there is in The Answer.

Oh yeah, i forgot to mention earlier that it also has gameplay improvements.
Of course, P3P isn't perfect either, as it lacks The Answer and it also has poorer graphics.

The battle system is better in P3P. However, exploration has been dumbed down to visual novel style, and the cutscenes were removed and reduced to stills. Not being able to really walk around was a major turn off.

I don't remember exploration ever being big in Persona 3, in any version. It's not really an exploration based game.

Also, while I miss some of the cutscenes, I find P3P's presentation of a couple of them (such as the main character's Awakening) superior.

Also, you don't actually need The Answer to understand the plot of Persona 3, the game stands on its own.

True, however you need it to understand a few things in P4:Arena. Remember that this whole thing is coming from the mindset of the TC having already played P3:FES. Now I see where this misunderstanding is coming from.

Remember, I said that P3P is the best PSP game. However, if you've already played FES then there is no real reason to get P3P(since you've already experienced all the canon plot points, including the Answer which leads into P4:Arena). P3P is only for new comers, or people that completely love P3 and want to try out a different fantasy scenario(with all of the major plot points in tact). That's how I saw it at least, and all I was getting at.

If you've already played FES, then you are better off playing P3P, because it will give you the new Social Links.

Also, I never realized that TC had already played Persona 3. Why would you not want to play the game again, especially with new Social Links?

Is it worth giving up on the superior writing of the Female Main Character's Social Links? Purely subjective.

I gotta disagree with this. The Sun social link is by far the deepest and most thought provoking social link in P3, and it was around long before the female MC. Besides, the main characters get developed well enough in the story. I'd rather get to learn the NPCs in social links.

You'd really rather have the Gourmet King than a Social Link with Shinjiro? I don't think we're ever going to agree on this subject.

As I said, it's purely subjective. There is no "right" answer. In my mind, the value of the extra Social Links is far greater than that of The Answer.

There is no canon in these stories except what you want. If you choose to let the world end, there's your canon. If you choose to whore the male Main Character out to every potential romance, there's your canon. If you choose to not romance anyone, that's acceptable canon too. If you choose to not defeat Elizabeth or even open the Monad depths, that can be canon as well. Play a complete loner and never expand a Social Link beyond the ones the game forces on you. Perfectly acceptable canon.

Only Atlus decides canon, not us fans. Besides, by that logic, no game has a canon story. In Super Mario Bros. I can jump in a hole, and allow Bowser to keep Peach forever. Canon-wise Mario saves her though.

Gaming is based around interactivity. Especially when games start designing themselves for interactive storytelling there is no canon. There, in fact, cannot be a canon story in a game based around an interactive storytelling experience. And, yeah, if you chose to kill Mario as a story element, I would be willing to consider than canon (it would certainly make more sense than her getting captured 15,000 times).

No every game features an interactive story even in potential, however. Go play Beyond Two Souls if you want an example for that. You can literally do nothing and the story won't change.

The story of a game does not belong to the writer. Games are interactive. Without the player, there is no story. Heck, the entire point of the Shin Megami Tensei series is the power of free will to decide on a path for yourself regardless of whatever options you may be presented with. Way to miss all that by locking yourself down to the exact story that the game designers list as the "True" ending and following it blindly.

Yes.

Nice, a fellow fan of all the games. That makes me, you, and NeoCracker. Anyone else?

How'd you like the P2 duology?

I liked it fairly well. It was certainly better than any of the Shin Megami Tensei games. I don't like it nearly as well as Persona 3 or Persona 4 though.

[Bright Shield]

Yeah, you didn't say it was perfect, I just mentioned that to let the OP know that all versions have their drawbacks. My point was just that if there was a version of P3 with the FES stuff, female main character, the gameplay improvements of P3P and none of the grpahical downgrades, that would be much closer to a perfect P3 version than any of the versions that currently are available.

I can agree to that.

I really hope they add the option to choose between a male and a female main character in P5, though. It adds replay value, and it's interesting to see different perspectives.

Personally, I'd want 1 set main character, and I'd like him/her to speak as well.

If you have a DS, I highly recomend Devil Survivor 2 if you ever get the chance, but that's another topic.

Seconded.

No, you called it the "definitive" version.

Definitive:
most reliable or complete, as of a text, author, criticism, study, or the like:

Which, since it lacks all the content for the female main character, is quite debatable. There's probably more content in the female version than there is in The Answer.

It is the MOST complete version, since it's the only one to contain The Answer. The Female Protagonist is a fantasy scenario that has no place in the canon/official P3 continuity. While The Answer is canon/official. So lacking the Female Protagonist is not as crucial as lacking The Answer. FES is the only version to contain the entire P3 story which leads into P4:Arena, thus making it the most complete.

Why would you not want to play the game again, especially with new Social Links?

Depends on how big of a fan you are.

You'd really rather have the Gourmet King than a Social Link with Shinjiro? I don't think we're ever going to agree on this subject.

Shinjiro is my favorite character, so I might be biased for him. If I could pick and choose, I'd gladly get rid of some of the party member social links in favor of NPCs though.

As I said, it's purely subjective. There is no "right" answer. In my mind, the value of the extra Social Links is far greater than that of The Answer.

Quality isn't the issue here.

There is no canon in these stories except what you want. If you choose to let the world end, there's your canon. If you choose to whore the male Main Character out to every potential romance, there's your canon. If you choose to not romance anyone, that's acceptable canon too. If you choose to not defeat Elizabeth or even open the Monad depths, that can be canon as well. Play a complete loner and never expand a Social Link beyond the ones the game forces on you. Perfectly acceptable canon. Only Atlus decides canon, not us fans. Besides, by that logic, no game has a canon story. In Super Mario Bros. I can jump in a hole, and allow Bowser to keep Peach forever. Canon-wise Mario saves her though.


Gaming is based around interactivity. Especially when games start designing themselves for interactive storytelling there is no canon. There, in fact, cannot be a canon story in a game based around an interactive storytelling experience. And, yeah, if you chose to kill Mario as a story element, I would be willing to consider than canon (it would certainly make more sense than her getting captured 15,000 times).

No every game features an interactive story even in potential, however. Go play Beyond Two Souls if you want an example for that. You can literally do nothing and the story won't change.

This is where you are 100% wrong. Canon = the official version. Considering that Atlus made both The Answer and Male MC canon, then that is the true canon. I can make Mario die in the first level of Mario 1, but canon-wise he's conquered that and every other adventure he's ever been on. What makes sense to you or me is irrelevant. All that matters is what the creators dictate to be canon.

canon: Another word for official. Used quite often in fan fiction to differentiate between the official storyline in which the fan fiction is based on.

To claim that the version that Atlus is following in the sequels isn't official, is rather silly. Atlus has chosen that male MC and The Answer are canon. Whether or not you like it, makes no difference.

I do feel your pain though. I despise the FFVII Compilation, but I have to admit that it is canon. Even if it makes me sad...

The story of a game does not belong to the writer. Games are interactive. Without the player, there is no story. Heck, the entire point of the Shin Megami Tensei series is the power of free will to decide on a path for yourself regardless of whatever options you may be presented with. Way to miss all that by locking yourself down to the exact story that the game designers list as the "True" ending and following it blindly.

I missed nothing. I still get all endings, just to see them. Doesn't change the fact that once Atlus reveals an official version, that ending becomes the true canon.

I liked it fairly well. It was certainly better than any of the Shin Megami Tensei games. I don't like it nearly as well as Persona 3 or Persona 4 though.

I definitely preferred Devil Survivor 2 and DS: Overclocked to P2 though. Catherine as well, but I don't think that game counts as MegaTen. The story is good in P2, but the dungeons are just plain annoying.

[Skyblade]

No, you called it the "definitive" version.

Definitive:
most reliable or complete, as of a text, author, criticism, study, or the like:

Which, since it lacks all the content for the female main character, is quite debatable. There's probably more content in the female version than there is in The Answer.

It is the MOST complete version, since it's the only one to contain The Answer. The Female Protagonist is a fantasy scenario that has no place in the canon/official P3 continuity. While The Answer is canon/official. So lacking the Female Protagonist is not as crucial as lacking The Answer. FES is the only version to contain the entire P3 story which leads into P4:Arena, thus making it the most complete.

Again, claiming that Female Protagonist is not as crucial as The Answer is purely opinion. In my mind, the "more" complete version is the version with the Female Main Character. I gain a lot more content, and lose some lower quality content. While we're at it, you should realize that the definitive version of the game usually features the best combat and gameplay, in which case P3P still beats out FES.

You'd really rather have the Gourmet King than a Social Link with Shinjiro? I don't think we're ever going to agree on this subject.

Shinjiro is my favorite character, so I might be biased for him. If I could pick and choose, I'd gladly get rid of some of the party member social links in favor of NPCs though.

Which ones would you choose given the options? The ones which were replaced for party members were Star (which became Akihiko), Justice (Ken Amada), Magician (Junpei), and Moon (Akihiko).

As I said, it's purely subjective. There is no "right" answer. In my mind, the value of the extra Social Links is far greater than that of The Answer.

Quality isn't the issue here.

Ok, so what is the issue? For a definitive version, the "most" complete would be the one with the most content. So, it's P3P.

There is no canon in these stories except what you want. If you choose to let the world end, there's your canon. If you choose to whore the male Main Character out to every potential romance, there's your canon. If you choose to not romance anyone, that's acceptable canon too. If you choose to not defeat Elizabeth or even open the Monad depths, that can be canon as well. Play a complete loner and never expand a Social Link beyond the ones the game forces on you. Perfectly acceptable canon. Only Atlus decides canon, not us fans. Besides, by that logic, no game has a canon story. In Super Mario Bros. I can jump in a hole, and allow Bowser to keep Peach forever. Canon-wise Mario saves her though.


Gaming is based around interactivity. Especially when games start designing themselves for interactive storytelling there is no canon. There, in fact, cannot be a canon story in a game based around an interactive storytelling experience. And, yeah, if you chose to kill Mario as a story element, I would be willing to consider than canon (it would certainly make more sense than her getting captured 15,000 times).

No every game features an interactive story even in potential, however. Go play Beyond Two Souls if you want an example for that. You can literally do nothing and the story won't change.

This is where you are 100% wrong. Canon = the official version. Considering that Atlus made both The Answer and Male MC canon, then that is the true canon. I can make Mario die in the first level of Mario 1, but canon-wise he's conquered that and every other adventure he's ever been on. What makes sense to you or me is irrelevant. All that matters is what the creators dictate to be canon.

canon: Another word for official. Used quite often in fan fiction to differentiate between the official storyline in which the fan fiction is based on.

To claim that the version that Atlus is following in the sequels isn't official, is rather silly. Atlus has chosen that male MC and The Answer are canon. Whether or not you like it, makes no difference.

I do feel your pain though. I despise the FFVII Compilation, but I have to admit that it is canon. Even if it makes me sad...

If ATLUS ever actually declared that a particular story was canon, yes, it would be canon. But they didn't. They chose a single path to use for the follow up games, but that's not the same thing. It's like arguing that in Mass Effect, the canon story is that Wrex dies, because that's what happens when you start up Mass Effect 2 with a new game.

ATLUS has never declared an official version of their stories for the most part. Other companies have. Nintendo, for example, made a declaration that Link's name is officially Link, regardless of what players named him themselves. That is a canon statement.

In Persona 4 Arena, none of your choices from Persona 3 or Persona 4 matter. Is that ATLUS saying that none of them occurred in the canon story? No. That is ATLUS trying to accommodate a huge variety of choices and options for their fans without using save file importing, or wasting hundreds of hours on voice acting and dialogue for each permutation of the situation. It's why they try to be as vague as possible on any issue in which player choice was a factor, because ATLUS believes in interactive storytelling, and that player choice matters.

The story of a game does not belong to the writer. Games are interactive. Without the player, there is no story. Heck, the entire point of the Shin Megami Tensei series is the power of free will to decide on a path for yourself regardless of whatever options you may be presented with. Way to miss all that by locking yourself down to the exact story that the game designers list as the "True" ending and following it blindly.

I missed nothing. I still get all endings, just to see them. Doesn't change the fact that once Atlus reveals an official version, that ending becomes the true canon.

ATLUS hasn't revealed an official version of most of the stories. The closest they've gotten is in writing the neutral path as the "True" ending in most of the Shin Megami Tensei games. They needed to choose a path going forward to minimize expenditure of resources and keep their writing focused. That is not the same thing.

I liked it fairly well. It was certainly better than any of the Shin Megami Tensei games. I don't like it nearly as well as Persona 3 or Persona 4 though.

I definitely preferred Devil Survivor 2 and DS: Overclocked to P2 though. Catherine as well, but I don't think that game counts as MegaTen. The story is good in P2, but the dungeons are just plain annoying.

I have Catherine, but I haven't played it yet. Catherine is in canon with Persona, though. Did you know that? Another way in which P3P is more "definitive" than FES.

[Mirage]

Yeah, you didn't say it was perfect, I just mentioned that to let the OP know that all versions have their drawbacks. My point was just that if there was a version of P3 with the FES stuff, female main character, the gameplay improvements of P3P and none of the grpahical downgrades, that would be much closer to a perfect P3 version than any of the versions that currently are available.

I can agree to that.

I really hope they add the option to choose between a male and a female main character in P5, though. It adds replay value, and it's interesting to see different perspectives.

Personally, I'd want 1 set main character, and I'd like him/her to speak as well.

Canon-wise it doesn't really matter if you can select between male or female if the main story of the game plays out the exact same for both. At the same time, it brings more replay value, and an option for people to choose a gender that they might more easily identify with. After all, there is quite a bit of female gamers in the world these days, and while I'm sure not all of them care if they control a male or a female, I am sure that a lot of them would like to at least have the option in a world where they most of the time have no choice but to play a guy.

[Bright Shield]

Again, claiming that Female Protagonist is not as crucial as The Answer is purely opinion. In my mind, the "more" complete version is the version with the Female Main Character. I gain a lot more content, and lose some lower quality content.

That's because you are refusing to acknowledge that the Female storyline is irrelevant to the overall Persona continuity. With the male protagonist you get The Journey, The Answer, P4: Arena, P4: The Ulimax Ultra Suplex Hold, and possibly even Persona Q(if this game is revealed to be canon). With the Female MC, you just get The Journey...

While we're at it, you should realize that the definitive version of the game usually features the best combat and gameplay, in which case P3P still beats out FES.

Combat-wise yes, but everything else was dumbed down.

Which ones would you choose given the options? The ones which were replaced for party members were Star (which became Akihiko), Justice (Ken Amada), Magician (Junpei), and Moon (Akihiko).

I hate Akihiko with a passion, so I definitely don't want a social link with him. Ditto for Ken, and I'm indifferent towards Junpei. I'd keep Shinjiro's, since he's awesome and well deserving of a social link.

Heck, I'd take away Mitsuru's social link as well; since I hate her guts too. lol

Ok, so what is the issue? For a definitive version, the "most" complete would be the one with the most content. So, it's P3P.

Is the Female MC really more content when you think about it though? The story is nearly the exact same thing, save for a few events and a few new social links. That is not more content than The Answer offers.

Not to mention all the content you get once you factor in that the Male MC's path leads into all the spin-offs/sequels.

If ATLUS ever actually declared that a particular story was canon, yes, it would be canon. But they didn't. They chose a single path to use for the follow up games, but that's not the same thing.

They used the Male MC in the sequels. That alone makes him canon. It's exactly the same thing. The male MC's path is what is being used in the official sequels. Therefore, the Male MC is the official/canon protagonist. Doesn't get any more simple than that.

It's like arguing that in Mass Effect, the canon story is that Wrex dies, because that's what happens when you start up Mass Effect 2 with a new game.

Not the same thing at all. Mass Effect lets you transfer over your choices, and adjusts the story accordingly. If they make a Mass Effect 4 and it follows a certain Mass Effect 3 ending no matter what, then that particular ending was canon.

ATLUS has never declared an official version of their stories for the most part.

Don't need to, when the sequels are following a certain path.

In Persona 4 Arena, none of your choices from Persona 3 or Persona 4 matter.

Your choices do not, however the MC is clearly stated to be a "him". So it was officially revealed that male MC is canon. Not only that, but you see the male MC's picture in the credits.

ATLUS hasn't revealed an official version of most of the stories.

Indeed, but when they do, that is the canon path. Just as the "True Ending" of P4 is canon, and the "Fight Nyx" ending of P3 is canon.

The closest they've gotten is in writing the neutral path as the "True" ending in most of the Shin Megami Tensei games. They needed to choose a path going forward to minimize expenditure of resources and keep their writing focused. That is not the same thing.

The reasoning behind the choice doesn't matter. It's still canon, no matter Atlus' reasoning for following a particular ending.

I have Catherine, but I haven't played it yet.

Best puzzle game ever. Oh, and it hasn't been revealed, but I'd bet you anything that the "True Katherine Ending" is the canon path. =P

Catherine is in canon with Persona, though. Did you know that? Another way in which P3P is more "definitive" than FES.

A random Vincent cameo hardly proves your point.

Canon-wise it doesn't really matter if you can select between male or female if the main story of the game plays out the exact same for both. At the same time, it brings more replay value, and an option for people to choose a gender that they might more easily identify with. After all, there is quite a bit of female gamers in the world these days, and while I'm sure not all of them care if they control a male or a female, I am sure that a lot of them would like to at least have the option in a world where they most of the time have no choice but to play a guy.

If that alone can stop someone from enjoying a game, then they were never interested in it to begin with. To be honest, that sounds more like a feminist agenda than anything.

[NeoCracker]

Okay, not the topic at hand, but how can you list off hating all those characters and not mention Yukari? The worst party maember in any persona game, and the second worse in any Shin Megami Tensai game?

[Bright Shield]

I actually love Yukari, since she shares my hatred for Mitsuru for most of the game.

[NeoCracker]

All she does all game is complain about your choices and make bitchy comments about Mitsuru. XD

She was like the prototype for Yoohoo in the First Devil Survivor.


Edit: Oh right, and she coined the term 'stupei'. So you can chalk her up as stupid as well.

[Bright Shield]

All she does all game is complain about your choices and make bitchy comments about Mitsuru. XD

Yeah, the complaining is annoying. However, I'm fine with her Mitsuru bashing. I hate her guts.

She was like the prototype for Yoohoo in the First Devil Survivor.

I didn't really mind Yuzu so much either, lol.

Edit: Oh right, and she coined the term 'stupei'. So you can chalk her up as stupid as well.

Not really a Junpei fan either, and he usually deserves the abuse.

[NeoCracker]

Like him or not, the insult itself sounds like something a third grader would say.