Rise of Mana

[Skyblade]

Stirring the pot here, but I've heard the touch screen controls make Death Peak entirely unbeatable in the android version of CT.

An acquaintance of mine couldn't get past the section where you have to catch the rat to move forward. I did it for her, and that was using a stylus designed specially for iphones, it was near impossible using finger controls to make sharps turns and keep up with the rat. Not to mention you have to mash a while running, so I had one hand to hold the phone, one hand to move the stylus, and she was mashing the screen to press a.

And Death Peak is even worse. You need the precision running at two point (the initial climb while hiding behind the tree, and the windy ledge that can push you to the bottom). I think that Jowy's right. I don't think Death Peak is possible with the touch controls. Apparently some people have claimed to do it, but many others have mentioned losing hours to the shoddy controls.

[Rostum]

I'm not. I've played Secret of Mana, Final Fantasy Dimensions, and Chrono Trigger. They all have poor controls.

So basically... You've played some ports that weren't designed for touch controls in the first place, and are judging everything on that when Square have produced quite a number of good original IP games for iOS/Android. Keep grasping at straws to be hateful man.

[Del Murder]

What are the good original games that you speak of?

[Dalkaen]

It's unfortunate that this is the turn the Mana series is taking, but if I'm being honest there hasn't been a great entry into the series in years. It's doubtful that trend would change, regardless of the platform.

[Skyblade]

I'm not. I've played Secret of Mana, Final Fantasy Dimensions, and Chrono Trigger. They all have poor controls.

So basically... You've played some ports that weren't designed for touch controls in the first place, and are judging everything on that when Square have produced quite a number of good original IP games for iOS/Android. Keep grasping at straws to be hateful man.

Well, I played The World Ends With You as well. On the DS (since we've been talking about iOS games, I was unsure if it had an iOS port. I can't see how it could work, what with losing the dual screen features, losing the stylus, and having your hands cover ninety percent of the action, but Square has done crazier things). Designed for touch controls. Honestly, I wasn't too impressed. You control the upper screen character completely with the buttons, and I didn't see why the same controls couldn't have worked for the character you control. You could have streamlined out one screen to DPad, one to buttons, and it would have worked great. Yeah, you'd lose the ability to move your character, but there is almost no tactical depth there anyway. The World Ends With You was probably the best touch-control-only games I've played, but it still didn't do enough to justify it as a control scheme, because it didn't do anything that I could do with buttons (and, honestly, couldn't do easier, as the repeated swiping did get repetitive and tiring far more quickly than button presses).

Also, YOU were the one who brought up Chrono Trigger in defense of touch controls. If Chrono Trigger is one of the better jobs they've done implementing touch controls, I think my point is proven. If not, maybe you shouldn't have brought it up and should have instead listed some games that actually use the features well.

If there are good games that use touch controls, I'm willing to try them. But I've played a lot, and a lot of games designed for touch controls by other companies, and I have never seen value to them as a primary control scheme.

It's unfortunate that this is the turn the Mana series is taking, but if I'm being honest there hasn't been a great entry into the series in years. It's doubtful that trend would change, regardless of the platform.

Sword of Mana was alright, but I agree. Even fewer good games that have actually been released over here. I'll just try to enjoy Secret of Mana and pray it gets rereleased for the 3DS (alongside other SNES titles like Illusion of Gaia, Super Mario RPG, and Super Metroid).

[Dalkaen]

It's unfortunate that this is the turn the Mana series is taking, but if I'm being honest there hasn't been a great entry into the series in years. It's doubtful that trend would change, regardless of the platform.

Sword of Mana was alright, but I agree. Even fewer good games that have actually been released over here. I'll just try to enjoy Secret of Mana and pray it gets rereleased for the 3DS (alongside other SNES titles like Illusion of Gaia, Super Mario RPG, and Super Metroid).

Have you played Seiken Densetsu 3? I definitely preferred it to SoM for a lot of reasons. I recently played SoM and SD3 with a co-op partner back to back and we spent a lot more time on SD3.

[Rostum]

What are the good original games that you speak of?

The Chaos Ring series is quite nice, and has quite a number of entries in it. But other than that, I have seen no issues with the FFIII and FFIV ports (they are DS ports, not SNES ports).

Well, I played The World Ends With You as well.

It's all assumptions here. "I don't see how it could work on iOS" is not an argument that holds solid ground.

Also, YOU were the one who brought up Chrono Trigger in defense of touch controls. If Chrono Trigger is one of the better jobs they've done implementing touch controls, I think my point is proven. If not, maybe you shouldn't have brought it up and should have instead listed some games that actually use the features well.

Well I had only played a little bit of it, so that's a misjudgment on my part - so yes I shouldn't have brought it up, and no it doesn't prove your point at all. It does not reflect the quality of other games.

So basically, again, you've played a couple of bad ports (of SNES games that were never intended for small touch screens) and have decided to judge everything based on that?

[starlet]

IM ALL FOR THIS, only because mobile ports are my only gaming option right now T.T I've been playing Chrono Trigger on my phone and I will say mobile controls are a PITA. Not impossible, but Death Peak and that part with the rat on the planks part were difficult and took a few tries. If I'm still mobile dependent I may give this one a try.

[Endless]

More videos: Gameplay, touch controls, G550 controller.

Nintendolife's review.

It's out on the iTunes Japan store, requires ios 7.0.

[Skyblade]

Well, I played The World Ends With You as well.

It's all assumptions here. "I don't see how it could work on iOS" is not an argument that holds solid ground.

True, but "it would work better without touch controls" is one which does, but which you just chose to ignore.

Also, YOU were the one who brought up Chrono Trigger in defense of touch controls. If Chrono Trigger is one of the better jobs they've done implementing touch controls, I think my point is proven. If not, maybe you shouldn't have brought it up and should have instead listed some games that actually use the features well.

Well I had only played a little bit of it, so that's a misjudgment on my part - so yes I shouldn't have brought it up, and no it doesn't prove your point at all. It does not reflect the quality of other games.

So basically, again, you've played a couple of bad ports (of SNES games that were never intended for small touch screens) and have decided to judge everything based on that?

How nice of you to ignore the game we discussed in the earlier part of the quote, The World Ends With You. Or, for that matter, any of the hundreds of other touchscreen games I've played that were made by companies besides Square, including a lot of generally well received titles like Angry Birds or Temple Run. Or, for that matter, the Legend of Zelda games for the DS, which were designed specifically for touch controls, and only touch controls, and suck because of it.

[Botchmun]

Square Enix is in a weird place, with games you want on Virtual Console or full blown PC release being released as mobile games. I wish I could play Devil's Advocate but I don't know all the factors regarding this new Mana title being a cellphone game rather than a proper release. Someone nuke me 'til I think that way well now did I just say that out loud?

Best way I can look at this game; as a reminder that Secret of Mana doesn't really require nostalgia goggles, talk to that one buddy of yours with a still-working SNES, go to your local pawn store, or dig out that CD of emulated games that I know you have lying around, and Play some Secret of Mana (Or Seineken Densetsu 3 if you have the translation patch)

[KentaRawr!]

I actually didn't really like Secret of Mana much. I loved Final Fantasy Adventure and Seiken Densetsu 3, but Secret of Mana wasn't all that fun to me for some reason. I'll try it again eventually, though.

And Legend of Mana has stolen much more of my time than I'd like to admit.

Edit: Oh yeah, Rise of Mana. Well, it looks neato, I guess!

[WildRaubtier]

How nice of you to ignore the game we discussed in the earlier part of the quote, The World Ends With You. Or, for that matter, any of the hundreds of other touchscreen games I've played that were made by companies besides Square, including a lot of generally well received titles like Angry Birds or Temple Run. Or, for that matter, the Legend of Zelda games for the DS, which were designed specifically for touch controls, and only touch controls, and suck because of it.

Your argument falls flat due to the simple fact that The World End With You is one of the greatest games S-E has produced, and is one of the best DS games. The controls worked well, especially considering what they were trying to do.

Basically, you seem to have a vendetta against touch controls, possibly look past that?

[KentaRawr!]

Well, I played The World Ends With You as well.

It's all assumptions here. "I don't see how it could work on iOS" is not an argument that holds solid ground.

True, but "it would work better without touch controls" is one which does, but which you just chose to ignore.

Also, YOU were the one who brought up Chrono Trigger in defense of touch controls. If Chrono Trigger is one of the better jobs they've done implementing touch controls, I think my point is proven. If not, maybe you shouldn't have brought it up and should have instead listed some games that actually use the features well.

Well I had only played a little bit of it, so that's a misjudgment on my part - so yes I shouldn't have brought it up, and no it doesn't prove your point at all. It does not reflect the quality of other games.

So basically, again, you've played a couple of bad ports (of SNES games that were never intended for small touch screens) and have decided to judge everything based on that?

How nice of you to ignore the game we discussed in the earlier part of the quote, The World Ends With You. Or, for that matter, any of the hundreds of other touchscreen games I've played that were made by companies besides Square, including a lot of generally well received titles like Angry Birds or Temple Run. Or, for that matter, the Legend of Zelda games for the DS, which were designed specifically for touch controls, and only touch controls, and suck because of it.

Worth mentioning is that Spirit Tracks is among the best games in the Zelda series. But I might be alone in that one.

[Skyblade]

How nice of you to ignore the game we discussed in the earlier part of the quote, The World Ends With You. Or, for that matter, any of the hundreds of other touchscreen games I've played that were made by companies besides Square, including a lot of generally well received titles like Angry Birds or Temple Run. Or, for that matter, the Legend of Zelda games for the DS, which were designed specifically for touch controls, and only touch controls, and suck because of it.

Your argument falls flat due to the simple fact that The World End With You is one of the greatest games S-E has produced, and is one of the best DS games. The controls worked well, especially considering what they were trying to do.

Basically, you seem to have a vendetta against touch controls, possibly look past that?

I never said that the controls don't work well. I in fact mentioned that they were among the best (if not the best) touch controls in any game I have ever seen.

That said, I also pointed out that they do almost nothing that the buttons couldn't do equally well (we know this, because buttons control the top screen character, and offer essentially identical functionality). I also note that, though the controls work well, the swipes and presses can be tiring over long periods of time. A lot of people will say that this is mitigated by the game being on a portable/mobile device, and thus designed for relatively shorter, pick-up-and-play sessions, but it is still a valid point.

My vendetta against touch controls is merely that I have seen woefully few games execute them well. The lack of feedback and precision hurts them almost universally. The World Ends With You is the best game I have played which uses touch controls. However, while it's controls are solid, it has done nothing to me that indicates that touch controls have any real use that buttons do not, which means that even it does not do enough to justify their existence as a primary control scheme, in my mind.

Every control media has something that benefits it over the others. The mouse and keyboard gets the absolute pinnacle of analog precision. Buttons offer phenomenal ease of use, provide excellent physical feedback, and are great for binary precision. Analog sticks offer a vast range of input commands in both direction and magnitude.

Touch controls strip away the best features of all the other controls schemes, and offer an array of their own problems. The stylus (or your fingers, depending on the device) block visibility of the screen (some more than others). Lack of resistance and feedback can make touch controls overly sensitive and strip away precision. Any attempt at analog movement (such as the circle pad in Final Fantasy Dimensions) is crippled by not having anything to stop your finger's movement.

If touch controls want to be accepted as a valid core input system, they need to do something better than the others. Currently, the absolute best touch control setup I've seen has managed to draw even to buttons, but has done nothing to surpass them. And the other touch control games I've seen fall woefully short of even that mark.