Game Pros and Cons

[Fynn]

Don't worry I can understand where you're coming from and I can agree with many of the points you've mentioned. For me, it's a matter of execution. I often really like Corrupt Church narratives, probably because I'm also Catholic myself, though I am critical of many of the Church's behaviors (I guess you could call me a liberal Catholic? I'm more liberal-minded, but I still put all my heart in my faith and the Church community), it's just that I don't think it's handled particularly well in this game. I really miss the days of subtle storytelling which are present in both IX and XII, so I can never understand how this game's popularity always overshadows those of the other two. I truly think it's badly written, so while I respect your opinions, after analyzing this game for long enough I cannot bring myself to like it.

[Pumpkin]

I do agree with you about how death was handled in IX (my all time favorite game). It was brilliantly done, showing different stages of dealing with your own (Vivi's) impending death ranging from confusion to acceptance. And the way he finally accepted it was subtle and touching and wonderfully done.

But I guess that's a topic for another thread :P. X certainly has its flaws, and it isn't one of my favorite games in terms of story telling. I think the best story telling it has is with Yuna through the course of X and then even more so in X-2. But I know a lot of people who would disagree with me on that one. I think they did great with Yuna, and I think they had so much potential with Kimahri and they kind of fell short. He had that great scene on Mt. Gagazet, but he didn't have much else going for him, which was a shame, because he's my favorite character in game.

[Sephiroth]

And eventually fade away by becoming monsters, with some exceptions that are stronger like Seymour, Trema, Yunalesca or Mika. And even they become monsters - still able to control themselves but who knows - wait for another 1000 years and maybe even they/their selves are gone completely.

It only took 2 years after FFX. In the end, Mika became a giant snail. What an undignified way to go. And Yunalesca became an incredibly powerful basilisk. Now that's more like it.

Yes it took two years but don't forget they were unsents a long time already that is why I mentioned the "variety of time for unsents" but I think you understood it anyway. I also said "even they become monsters" as Yunalesca has her Medusa form and her Chac form and Mika has his Neslug form. Of course Yunalesca and Seymour's incarnations are a bit different but it already shows that dead people work differently and even can use some afterlife powers before fading away and totally being replaced by the monsters they have transformed to. Mika and Yunalesca surely would have more time with the heroes not confronting them as Yunalesca had her purpose and time speaks for them (so from the point of view when they were still normal dead people and their "vanishing moment" in Final Fantasy X has not happened yet) but this is something that leads to nowhere. It was just about all of them some day turning into monsters without their will not being too strong or just accepting death instead and all.

The Via Infinito is some exception anyway because those people actually were forced to leave or purposely vanished except Jyscal and still they appeared there as monsters. Kinoc was absorbed by Seymour and you didn't see him being sent, okay. Jyscal was sent. Mika disappeared but was shown like he chose to go to no longer face what Spira confronts, Yunalesca was not sent with a dance but she also disappeared and Mika was shown to be shocked, so normally it should count as normal sending, Zeyon disappeared from the chamber and so there is a variety of exceptions, et cetera. In fact I expected Seymour to appear instead of Zeyon.

[Skyblade]

Don't worry I can understand where you're coming from and I can agree with many of the points you've mentioned. For me, it's a matter of execution. I often really like Corrupt Church narratives, probably because I'm also Catholic myself, though I am critical of many of the Church's behaviors (I guess you could call me a liberal Catholic? I'm more liberal-minded, but I still put all my heart in my faith and the Church community), it's just that I don't think it's handled particularly well in this game. I really miss the days of subtle storytelling which are present in both IX and XII, so I can never understand how this game's popularity always overshadows those of the other two. I truly think it's badly written, so while I respect your opinions, after analyzing this game for long enough I cannot bring myself to like it.

I don't mind corrupt church stories (provided they're well done). They can add to a world, give it depth, and be quite interesting (Dragon Age does a really nice job of this). I do think they are tremendously overdone in the current era, especially with no real counterpoints being made (and some, like this one, being really badly executed), but I can appreciate the good ones.

But I hate corrupt/broken relegions. A Church is a mortal institution. It is as fallible as people are, there probably will be corruption and problems.

But, while games sometimes show relegious characters in a positive light, relegions themselves ALWAYS get the shaft. The core principles will turn out to be wrong. There either won't be a god, or it will be some psychotic demonic destroyer of worlds. Or, in the case of FFX, all three.

This is why Bravely Default actually has what is probably the most favorable portrayals of relegions I've ever seen in the game. There may be issues with the Church, but the fundamental relegious beliefs are held to be true. There's actually quite a bit more to it than that, but I'm saving that for a thread I'll craft after I finish the game.

[Forsaken Lover]

I liked Yevon because they were a corrupt church that still had the best intentions. Notice that Mika "sends himself" after he hears of Yunalesca being destroyed. He is utterly distraught at the idea that Sin is now unstoppable and will only continue to ravage the world endlessly.

We can also see in X-2 that Yevon did have an overall positive effect on Spira. There were no rampant plagues of Bandits or thieves like the LaBlanc Syndicate in X. There was also no danger of one of the races wiping out the other, again seen in X-2 with the Ronso and the Guado. (what Seymour did, he did on his own. Yevon itself cannot be blamed for the Ronso massacre)

Overall, X paints a very nice portrait of theocracy as far as I'm concerned. They are making the best world possible out of a very bad and hopeless situation. We forget there were a lot of fortunate circumstances in the game that did not exist before. Appeasement of the giant death whale was really the only choice they had before the game.

Also why do people always think the Yevon religion has a god? It doesn't.

[Fynn]

I liked Yevon because they were a corrupt church that still had the best intentions. Notice that Mika "sends himself" after he hears of Yunalesca being destroyed. He is utterly distraught at the idea that Sin is now unstoppable and will only continue to ravage the world endlessly.

We can also see in X-2 that Yevon did have an overall positive effect on Spira. There were no rampant plagues of Bandits or thieves like the LaBlanc Syndicate in X. There was also no danger of one of the races wiping out the other, again seen in X-2 with the Ronso and the Guado. (what Seymour did, he did on his own. Yevon itself cannot be blamed for the Ronso massacre)

Overall, X paints a very nice portrait of theocracy as far as I'm concerned. They are making the best world possible out of a very bad and hopeless situation. We forget there were a lot of fortunate circumstances in the game that did not exist before. Appeasement of the giant death whale was really the only choice they had before the game.

Also why do people always think the Yevon religion has a god? It doesn't.

It certainly does not portray theocracy as good. Hell, if this religion has no god, it is not a theocracy. We just have a religion in high power. Yes, Mika sends himself, but that's more out of cowardice than anything. And I don't think they were making what they could of their situation - Yevon is the cause of Sin. The church conceals the truth about who Sin/Yu Yevon actually is just so that they can control the masses. They know all too well you can destroy Sin by killing Yu Yevon, but they do not want Sin to be stopped. That is the very reason this church is corrupt! Instead of wishing for the good of the people, they wish for more power to themselves. Those who don't and really are looking out for the people actually know nothing and thus eave the church once they find out.

Goodness, whenever we exchange opinions I get the impression we played two completely different games

[Forsaken Lover]

I'm pretty sure theocracy just means the nation and government are ruled according to the religion. Religion in turn does not mandate worship of a deity.

And Mika sent himself because "I have no desire to watch Spira die." I guess it is cowardice in that he was afraid the world was doomed to destruction....

Also you should read the origin of the Yevon faith. Maechen tells it to you if you find him on Gagazet.

Maechen
"Rumors flew in Bevelle about Sin's sudden appearance."
"They said that the people of Zanarkand became the fayth, that they had called Sin."
"And that the man responsible..."
"was none other than the summoner Yevon, ruler of Zanarkand!"
"Yes, the lord father of Lady Yunalesca."
"On the eve of Zanarkand's destruction, Lady Yunalesca..."
"had fled to safety with her husband, Zaon."
"Later, the two used the Final Summoning to defeat Sin."
"Yet the people of Bevelle still feared Yu Yevon."
"It was to quell his wrath that they revered him, and first spread his teachings."
"And so were born the temples of Yevon."
"I suppose it's possible Yunalesca had planned it that way from the start!"
"A fair trade, she defeats Sin in exchange for her lord father's honor."
"Of course, there's no proof. No, the facts are lost in the mists of time."
"And who'd admit Yevon was an enemy of Bevelle?"
"You can bet the temples had a hand in covering that one up!"
"And that, as they say, is that."

Final Fantasy X | 10 | FFX | FF10 - Script - Maechen - FFWA

Bevelle did all that stuff because from the first they were trying to avoid Sin killing everybody. Mika's complete despair when he hears Yunalesca is defeated is proof enough he was not just some tyrant who ruled over Spira because he was in love with power. He did it because he sincerely believed Yevon was the only way to keep the world even vaguely well-off.

If you look at it, all the villains of the game had their own idea of how best to "save Spira." Yunalesca echoes many of the same sentiments as Mika and Seymour took their logic to its natural, extreme conclusion.

Mika: "Men die. Beasts die. Trees dies. Even continents perish. Only the power of death truly commands in Spira. Resisting its power is futile."

Yuna: "All the people who have opposed Sin... Their battles, their sacrifices, were they all in vain?"

Mika: "Not in vain. No matter how many summoners give their lives, Sin cannot be truly defeated. The rebirth CANNOT be stopped. Yet the courage of those who fight gives the people hope. There is nothing futile in the life and death of a summoner."

Auron: "Never futile but never-ending."

Mika: "Indeed that is the essence of Yevon. Yevon is embodied by eternal, unchanging continuity, summoner."

-------------------------------

Yunalesca: "Hope is...comforting. It allows us to accept fate, however tragic it might be. [...] Yevon's teachings and the Final Summoning give the people of Spira hope. Without hope, they would drown in their sorrow."

And then Seymour sees that this horrible "false hope" life that is perpetuated and unstoppable by all accounts as being far worse than death itself. As Yunalesca tells the group, "it is better for you to die in hope than to live in despair. Let me be your liberator." That might as well be Seymour's motto.

[Fynn]

Well, who am I to argue. It's been a long time since I played the game and interpretations may vary, I can't really remember that much from the game itself, so some of my arguments may be flawed that way. I may come back with a rebuttal once I read into the script more

And no, the idea of theocracy is that there is a god in the center of the religion (theos was Greek for god). Ancient Egyptians had a theocracy because they believed the Pharaoh was a god incarnate, therefore, his will must be fulfilled without protest. So while this often does overlap, just having a religious institution run a country does not constitute a theocracy, like in this example, where there is no central deity.

[Sephiroth]

You could just read the definition of theocracy if you are not sure.

[Skyblade]

You could just read the definition of theocracy if you are not sure.

I'll just drop it here to make it easier.

theocracy[ thee-ok-ruh-see ]
noun [plural the·oc·ra·cies.]
1. a form of government in which God or a deity is recognized as the supreme civil ruler, the God's or deity's laws being interpreted by the ecclesiastical authorities.
2. a system of government by priests claiming a divine commission.
3. a commonwealth or state under such a form or system of government.

So, yeah, you do kind of need a God to have a Theocracy. As the White Wizard said, "Theos" means "god". Theology? Study of God. Theocracy? Rule of God.

[Forsaken Lover]

If not a theocracy, what would you call the form of government where laws are all decided upon religious faith and doctrine? Where the head spiritual body are also the leaders of the government?

I'd call it a theocracy because religion does not require a god and so neither does a religion-based government.

[Fynn]

Where the head spiritual body are also the leaders of the government?

That would make the UK a theocracy, then, as the head of state is also head of the Anglican Church.

[Forsaken Lover]

Well that still doesn't fit the other part. Yevon is in every part of the government and people's lives. I don't see how this could be anything but a theocracy.

[Skyblade]

Well that still doesn't fit the other part. Yevon is in every part of the government and people's lives. I don't see how this could be anything but a theocracy.

Then you are either admitting that Yevon is a God (or at least that the people of Spira treat him as one), or misunderstanding the definition of Theocracy, which I added in my last post.

I'm pretty sure theocracy just means the nation and government are ruled according to the religion. Religion in turn does not mandate worship of a deity.

And Mika sent himself because "I have no desire to watch Spira die." I guess it is cowardice in that he was afraid the world was doomed to destruction...

Also you should read the origin of the Yevon faith. Maechen tells it to you if you find him on Gagazet.

Maechen
"Rumors flew in Bevelle about Sin's sudden appearance."
"They said that the people of Zanarkand became the fayth, that they had called Sin."
"And that the man responsible..."
"was none other than the summoner Yevon, ruler of Zanarkand!"
"Yes, the lord father of Lady Yunalesca."
"On the eve of Zanarkand's destruction, Lady Yunalesca..."
"had fled to safety with her husband, Zaon."
"Later, the two used the Final Summoning to defeat Sin."
"Yet the people of Bevelle still feared Yu Yevon."
"It was to quell his wrath that they revered him, and first spread his teachings."
"And so were born the temples of Yevon."
"I suppose it's possible Yunalesca had planned it that way from the start!"
"A fair trade, she defeats Sin in exchange for her lord father's honor."
"Of course, there's no proof. No, the facts are lost in the mists of time."
"And who'd admit Yevon was an enemy of Bevelle?"
"You can bet the temples had a hand in covering that one up!"
"And that, as they say, is that."

Final Fantasy X | 10 | FFX | FF10 - Script - Maechen - FFWA

Bevelle did all that stuff because from the first they were trying to avoid Sin killing everybody. Mika's complete despair when he hears Yunalesca is defeated is proof enough he was not just some tyrant who ruled over Spira because he was in love with power. He did it because he sincerely believed Yevon was the only way to keep the world even vaguely well-off.

If you look at it, all the villains of the game had their own idea of how best to "save Spira." Yunalesca echoes many of the same sentiments as Mika and Seymour took their logic to its natural, extreme conclusion.

Mika: "Men die. Beasts die. Trees dies. Even continents perish. Only the power of death truly commands in Spira. Resisting its power is futile."

Yuna: "All the people who have opposed Sin... Their battles, their sacrifices, were they all in vain?"

Mika: "Not in vain. No matter how many summoners give their lives, Sin cannot be truly defeated. The rebirth CANNOT be stopped. Yet the courage of those who fight gives the people hope. There is nothing futile in the life and death of a summoner."

Auron: "Never futile but never-ending."

Mika: "Indeed that is the essence of Yevon. Yevon is embodied by eternal, unchanging continuity, summoner."

-------------------------------

Yunalesca: "Hope is...comforting. It allows us to accept fate, however tragic it might be. [...] Yevon's teachings and the Final Summoning give the people of Spira hope. Without hope, they would drown in their sorrow."

And then Seymour sees that this horrible "false hope" life that is perpetuated and unstoppable by all accounts as being far worse than death itself. As Yunalesca tells the group, "it is better for you to die in hope than to live in despair. Let me be your liberator." That might as well be Seymour's motto.

Yes, indeed. Seymour and Mika. Two people who demonstrate firsthand just how liberating death is. Who see that death has allowed them to put aside all their worries and problems and just fade away into an eternal peace. Oh, wait...


And, again, how did Yevon's teachings spread? They worshipped the entity that was slaughtering them. Not unlike the death cults worshipping Kefka in Final Fantasy VI. For that matter, how do we know that his teachings were actually his? We never hear about Yu-Yevon's teachings first hand. He was a summoner, and that's about all we know. Who taught the people about him? To fear and worship him? That machina were bad, and not to use them? He certainly didn't, nor did he preach about it, since he was kind of in the middle of summoning his "armor" (also, if Sin is just armor for Yevon, why does it slaughter everything? Armor is passive, it defends, it doesn't attack). It was almost certainly Yunalesca, teaching them (as she hung around after being killed) what to believe and what to follow, as Maechen hints.

Also, the fact that people starting the movement may have had good intentions is utterly irrelevant. The religion is wrong, the beliefs are wrong, everything about it, down to the core fundamental teachings, is a lie. Perhaps the lie is being perpetrated for good reason, but it's still a lie. Which, again, goes back to what I said. Religious people (like Mika) may be portrayed positively (although, really, he wasn't. Like, at all), but religion itself always is portrayed negatively.

[Forsaken Lover]

Seymour and Mika are important characters. Important characters can come back from death. Regular people? Not so much. Hell, even Biran and Yenke and Kelk and whatever other Ronso Seymour murdered didn't come back either. There's also every single Al Bhed since they obviously don't have Summoners to send them all throughout history.

Dead people by and large do stay dead. What you're doing is the equivalent of taking the vocal minority and saying it's the majority, which it isn't.

And yes, Yevon was founded on lies. But they were lies for a noble end. That is supported by everything in the game and that was my only point.

Xenogears had a good religion in Nisam. Also the religion in Star Ocean 3 was all good but I guess it was kind of a lie on account of them all being in an MMO. Also that game is a crime against humanity.

As for the theocracy stuff, I'm still waiting for your alternative government system to describe when spiritual doctrines also determine government laws and the spiritual leaders are also heads of state. Because as far as I can tell, only a theocracy fits that bill.