Knights are the best job class, and I am prepared to defend that statement.

[Jay Ayanami]

There is no such thing as Equip Knight Sword (to my knowledge) and the Knights are still ultimate because they are better than any other team imaginable.

[Mwork]

Yeah, Equip Knight Sword does not exist.



No one has proven Jay's Knights are better than any other team imaginable, rather, it's been proven that they aren't the best team imaginable (by showing another party capable of beating the Knights).

[Summon Illusion]

Yes, and this is one of the very advantageous things about the knight class. They can equip all the legendary swords.

The drawback is that we can also raise up the point that they cannot wear cloths (ex. Secret cloths, power sleeve), as well as hats (THIEF HAT, flash hat, twist headband etc), and there's no 'equip cloths' or 'equip hat'. I'm suprised noone brought that up yet.

I think the ultimate team thing is really preference. For example, I would prefer the ninja team and I'd have so much more fun in the game with a CHEMIST ARCHER team (I'm serious, they're fun to use).

Oh, and TD, I'm talking about what you said, not what he said. You 2 said separate things if you can tell the difference.

[Jay Ayanami]

Even if the could not beat every team, it does not mean they are not better. They need only to be better against more teams than any other team to be the best.

Despite that inability, Summon, they can still have Haste, which is good, and they have high HP.

[Summon Illusion]

I personally find the speed cloths or certain robes are much more important than the knight armor, but ah, that's preferences.

Personally, I'd much rather have a thief hat on than a grand helmet on, or even secret cloths rather than maximillian for that matter. I find that speed is much more important, rather than some helmet that protects you from darkness. Again, preference. I consider Speed more important than HP.

But in such a case, I would not know if the ninjas are better. You have to admit, by this point they're both about pretty much even. Even if there was a difference, as far as I see it's too small the the point which it makes a difference.

Setiemon also gives haste, and the haste is made up by their much higher speed (don't forget equipment, you can have up to +5 with just the equipment). Also, generally ninjas can THROW chaos blades and excaliburs, and since as you said you can get many without cheating on that deep dungeon level horror, it would make sense that they have multiples of them. This accompanied with move+2 or 3 would be very effective, especially with a ninja.

I would go with the ninjas, but again, that's just my preference. I find it suprising that a generic can match NPCs. Don't you find it quite amazing yourself? I do.

[Yuffie is a B****]

When have I flamed?
And I notice you failed to adress my arguments. yes oh course hoylswords is the best but thats a special job.
Anway assian's with olyswordsmen skill would own all teams. WHy ? the only way to stopthere death attack (which has 100% accrucey) is N kai armle or ribbon. Balster punch and Icewolf bite would take care of that!

[Summon Illusion]

I'm supposing your point is that if Orlandu's actually being considered as a knight, then an assasin should be considered as a ninja? Makes sense to me, and besides, since it is technically saying they are the best class, then a knight party with orlandu can still be easily outmeasured, if npc's are considered.

I personally prefer it if it was just knight (generic) vs ninja (generic) though.

I'm suprised that there's even a chance that these ninjas have against a cheat NPC character, really. Rather impressive.

I don't mean this to be offending, but Yuffie, he's the one that has the blaster punch and icewolf bite, not the assasins.

However, unless they have ribbons yes, it's pretty much unavoidable. However, they can equip 2 samurai swords (2 hands&samurai sword equippable), so I don't think that would neccessarily make them un-invincible or anything - -;;

[Mwork]

Even if the could not beat every team, it does not mean they are not better. They need only to be better against more teams than any other team to be the best.

Well then, it's very obvious we won't be able to determine who's the best by your definition, seeing as how there are hundreds of different possible setups for a party......


Though, it does make sense that the better team will beat the other. And since the Ninja are VERY capable of killing the Knights, I would say they are the better of the two.

....Anyone else agree?



So, Jay's Knight have been proven fallible where Jay had said (I believe) they weren't. Correct me if I'm wrong, though...

[Summon Illusion]

That could be proven false by pretty much any party, but I'll have to favor the ninjas for this one. At least until, its shown otherwise.

[Mwork]

er........what can be proven false by pretty much any party?

[Summon Illusion]

Well, in my opinion trying to prove it true or false is trying to build truth on something that is truely opinionated. Therefore, my thought would be that it's pretty much impossible. Perhaps a majority party might agree, but as far as I can see...neither side has proven the other side wrong, however neither side has been proven RIGHT either so....

[Mwork]

'''''Well, in my opinion trying to prove it true or false is trying to build truth on something that is truely opinionated. Therefore, my thought would be that it's pretty much impossible.'''''

I'm.....a bit lost with that part....... O_o




'''''as far as I can see...neither side has proven the other side wrong, however neither side has been proven RIGHT either so....'''''


Alrighty then, let's see.

(And this is considering Jay keeps the same Knights he originally posted...)

The Ninja have their Faith at the maximum, 94. Their MA would be (an estimated amount of) 10 or so. Since Jay hasn't given a specific number for his Knights' Faith, we don't know for sure. But, considering the damage he says he does with Holy, I would say it's around 85.

Okay, so if the first Ninja calculates a Lv.3 Petrify, the calculation will target all of the Knights (they are all at Lv.99). I would choose Petrify, by the way, because it's a more accurate spell than Death.

The chance of the calculated spell to successfully hit is 95%, rounded down, since the Knights have practically no magic evasion.

With those numbers.......

P (X=0) = (5!/0!5!) * (.95^0) * (.5^5) = .003125

There's a 3% chance that the Ninja haven't yet won the battle.

But there's four other Ninja who can calculate the same spell on all of the Knights.

P (X=0) = (25!/0!25!) * (.95^0) * (.5^25) = .00000003

So, once every Ninja has calculated the spell, there will be a .000003% chance that there's at least one Knight left to fight.

With those VERY low chances of survival, I don't know how anyone could say the two teams are pretty much equal....








if anyone notes mistakes on the math, please let me know. I typed all this up in a big hurry.

[Ragnarok]

Originally posted by Jay Ayanami
Samurai, Monks, Holy Swordsmen ... any number of units could defeat them ... and what if the other team had Blade Grasp as well?

And Summon Illusion, there was again no insult. He simply made an ass of himself by continuously making arguments already said after I had informed him that he had done so. Ironically enough, we had just finished discussing the matter with another poster. I would challenge you to argue that he was somehow not making an ass of himself. An objective statement. Take it how you will.

So if I were to say you are a hypocrite and an asshole I would simply be making an objective statement? Or would I have to say that you are making an asshole of yourself? I would appreciate your expert opinion.

[Summon Illusion]

"Well, in my opinion trying to prove it true or false is trying to build truth on something that is truely opinionated. Therefore, my thought would be that it's pretty much impossible."

Sorry, that must've been confusing. Basically, I'm saying that since in my view all of this is an opinion, it's really impossible to dig out a 'truth' in it.

And um...notice how this thread's died - -;;

Well, I guess that means...ninjas, for now - -;;

[Jay Ayanami]

The flaw in all of your guys' arguments is that you have been specifically designing teams to beat my own, not teams which are all around good. My Knight team is the best for obvious reasons I have stated but you must also consider that they are good against most any squad regardless of specialization. The team you all have cited is simply good against people who have Faith. Common Samurai, Monks, or Lancers could take them down and with ease.

Your counter argument to that is that there are too many combinations to ever decide what is the best. However, if you are a smart person, you can probably take that number down by 99% because most of those combinations suck and are only there because they are, quite simply, a combination.

And about the Ninjas, like I said before, there are only a few changes one would need to make to defeat them. You have simply had the advantage of what I will call "pre-emptive strike".

And Ragnarok, I was, in fact, being objective. Read what I have said before. It is quite funny, you will see, because you exemplified the very behaviors that I was seeking to prevent before you came. I think that if you found yourself in my position, you would see the humor in that.