Knights are the best job class, and I am prepared to defend that statement.

[Summon Illusion]

Oh, finally, you responded. However, as shown earlier, you edited your knights little by little in order to counter their strategies, so that's not specifically for one side either. Additionally, these ninjas aren't just good against you - they're very good in general. I tried it out myself recently (although at a much lower level), as well as the knights (again, much lower level).

I'm pretty sure it works just as wlel against samurais, monks and lancers. Don't forget, those classes don't specifically have low faith either. And it's not like the ninjas have a very high speed, throw (chaos blades), as well as 2 swords. Then there's the whole assasin thing..but that's beside the point.

Can you be a little more specific against the ninjas? You're not really being specific, so.

And again, they both work generally well. The knights would be beaten in such a case, and they'd both do just as well in random battles. I cannot see, at the current standpoint, why the ninjas wouldn't generally win. And besides, it's not a competition of whether the ninjas are ultimate, but rather whether the knights are ultimate. And this has just proven that they aren't, until proven otherwise. This whole thread is whether knights are ultimate, not whether if there are any other classes that are more ultimate (although one can argue assasin, and the ninjas so far are right up there if not past). Most of the people who were in the discussion said as well, that their point arguing otherwise is there is 'no ultimate team in FFT', so.

Anyways, I'd like to see what other people have to say about htis.

And for the comments, again, ass is an opinion why stupidity is not (although that as well, to some extent is opinionated). If I was one to declare it to be low to do such a thing, I believe most would have the integrety to follow it themselves. Of course, that's just from my standpoint here.

[Jay Ayanami]

Yes, Summon, I finally posted. Pardon me if I cannot be online at all hours of the day as you seem to be. I am already on it enough as it stands. And for all of your all's benefit, I will tell you that I will be on Spring Break this week and have planned a vacation with my friends. So, you will not see me in the next five days for sure.

Back to the matter at hand:

I simply said that in order to defend myself, I would only need to make minor changes to my team. The team you suggested is very specialized and is really no good against people who excel in physical abilities (like I cited, Monks, Samurai, etc.). They need no Faith and can attack long range for massive damage. Plus Lancers and Samurai have an armor advantage. So, perhaps you can kill one or two of them by throwing Chaos Blades (two throws to kill one unit, probably), assuming I do not dodge. That puts you in range of a Samurai attack or at the very least a one move followed by a Samurai attack. Given your less than desirable HP defecit ...

In case I did not specify, any of these units could have 3 Faith since we have made it clear earlier in the thread that 3 Faith is a valid attribute. Thus, it does not matter if the unit type would normally have high or low Faith.

The Knight team does well against most any foe and the teams that excel against them are ones who have specifically designed to bring them down. As we can all see, these teams would do horribly against enemies who excel in Physical attacks (such as the ones I specified earlier: Lancer, Samurai ...) and have low Faith. And let's not forget Orlandu who has been established for the sake of consistency in this thread (and this thread alone for all you people who are still griping) as a Knight.

And Summon, Dictionary.com defines "ass" as "A vain, self-important, silly, or aggressively stupid person." (definition 2.2). I think Ragnarok fits the latter of that definition. I know how you'd love for this to be a totally subjective world but let's be logical here. Relative to other matters, this is more objective than "puppies are nice". This is objective as it could possibly for you even if you reject the concept of objectivity. Trust me.

[Summon Illusion]

Oh, that. This is spring break, and I've been doing a lot of recording&practicing. Of course, every hour or so I get bored so I check my mail. Then I go out somewhere. This results in me checking my mail anywhere from 2-7 times this week. Also, a lot of people tend to post at the same time I do, so I get a reply in my mail right after I posted (by the time I'm finished junking out, BAM there's a reply). Of course, that's only for this week, and otherwise usually I check about 1-2 times average.

I suppose I failed to address that you work most of the day. Well, I practice most of the time. Plus, most electronica stuff or recroding tools have to be found online, and none of my friends are musicians so it's an easy resource, or a substitute for at leat this time.

Oh yeah, I set up huge downloads and those screw up every couple hours or so and sometimes I check mail while fixing the problems that's occuring in the current setup.

I want to hear other people talk on this one, so I'm just gonna skip it (sorry).

Yes, but most of ass is things that would be considered opinion, and I wouldn't say Ragnarok is specifically intelligent. If it was simple truth that he was unintelligent, more people would agree to it.

Things are the hardest to apply to one's self.

[Mwork]

The team you suggested is very specialized and is really no good against people who excel in physical abilities (like I cited, Monks, Samurai, etc.). They need no Faith and can attack long range for massive damage. Plus Lancers and Samurai have an armor advantage. So, perhaps you can kill one or two of them by throwing Chaos Blades (two throws to kill one unit, probably), assuming I do not dodge. That puts you in range of a Samurai attack or at the very least a one move followed by a Samurai attack. Given your less than desirable HP defecit ...

In case I did not specify, any of these units could have 3 Faith since we have made it clear earlier in the thread that 3 Faith is a valid attribute. Thus, it does not matter if the unit type would normally have high or low Faith.

Oh my........just think about it a while....

....just look at the Ninja party. They REALLY do work well against the types of opponents you say.

....why do you keep refusing to accept that??

The Ninja's high Faith will ensure all healing and support spells will work exceptionally well. The Ninja have excellent Speed, so they'll act more often than the opposition. They could all just spend the first round calculating Protect, Shell, Regen, Reraise, Pray Faith and such on each other. Then they can attack the next round. They hit hard due to their inherent Two Swords. Against units with Blade Grasp, the Ninja's first strick will be blocked, but the second cannot be blocked. And, with Concentrate, that second is guaranteed to ignore evasion and will, therefore, connect. The Ninja will be well protected from their support spells, plus the added support of Blade Grasp, so they'll manage pretty well against the enemies' attacks. Then one or two Ninja could just calculate a healing spell or a reviving one at the start of the next round.

I don't see how a team this good would not be good against low-faithed physical warriors.....






But anyway, from my point of view at least, the point of this thread was to prove that Jay's Knights could be beat. This would mean, to me, that they are not ultimate.

Now, this has been done several times already, so unless something else comes up, I see no reason for me to continue posting about it.....

[Jay Ayanami]

As if calculated spells are effective against people with 3 Haith. Anyhow, the Samurai can add Haste, Protect, Shell, and Regen. The Lancers can jump and the Monks can Revive and Earth Slash.

'nuff said.

[Mwork]

1.) I never even hinted the Ninja should calculate their spells on the enemy. As I said "healing and support spells will work exceptionally well." Why in the world would one ever THINK about casting healing/support spells on the ENEMY??????



2.) C'mon Jay, think about it. You'll realize the Ninja really aren't bad at all against other setups. Well.....about as good as your Knights, since the Jobs/abilities you just described can also devaste your Knights quite easily.......

[Jay Ayanami]

I never even hinted the Ninja should calculate their spells on the enemy. As I said "healing and support spells will work exceptionally well." Why in the world would one ever THINK about casting healing/support spells on the ENEMY??????

I assumed this was a hangover from the Level 3 Status Attack strategy. Use your head, why would I assert you would heal me.

C'mon Jay, think about it. You'll realize the Ninja really aren't bad at all against other setups. Well.....about as good as your Knights, since the Jobs/abilities you just described can also devaste your Knights quite easily.......

No, all you could suggest is the same opening move only with a different job set. But then again, some classes are slow, so it would not work. Even so, all I would have to do is change speed. They are average. Not bad, but they fail against many phyiscal teams with low Faith.

[Mwork]

Well, it's really kinda pointless to argue with you about this......
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........I'm only typing up this post to say that you shouldn't expect anything more from me on this current topic..... -_-

[Jay Ayanami]

If you manage to do that, then you'll be the first, but at least you'll have my respect.

I just don't see how you can argue that a team that relies on Calculations moreso than physical attacks would win against low Faith. Although Ninjas are good phyiscally, then cannot match up against long range attacers who have good defense mechanisms and can attack for lethal damage long range.

[Mwork]

Neither one of us would ever be able to convince the other to change his opinion.......so I just thought I'd be better if we stop the discussion...


But, honestly, I kinda enjoyed the whole thing.

It was.......entertaining, to say the least.....

[Edgar]

Not job classes are the best, trust me.

Squire: Good for experience gain
Archer: Good and fexible unlike throw and gun shooting
Knights: Can equip knight swords
Chemist: Heal without charging
Monk: Ultra high pa and can attack long range and can heal.
Lancer: Good for attacking enemies that are VERY FAR
Geomaner: Good for torturing
Oracles: Good for adding all kinds of stats
Calculator: Good for ranged magic casting
Mime: Good for combos
Thief: Good for getting rare items
Samuri: Good for healing and attacking surrounding enemies
Ninja: Good for the hit and run stretegy
Priest: Good for healing
Wizard: Good for offence
Time Mage: Good for moving faster than others
Mediator: Good for all sorts of talking
Summoner: Good for all long radiues attacks
Dancer & Bard: Good for thier Reaction and Movement abilities respectively

[Blackmage]

Has anyone created a paper-and-dice version of the FFT battle system that acts just like the game? If so, why don't we use it to test the teams' capabilities? Or perhaps even create our own, assuming we could get all the mathematical crap behind the scenes to be known? This game could very well be played on a board with little Lego people and a basic computer program that could keep track of all the AT's, attack damage, etc. I dunno, just food for thought to prove who's the best once and for all. And then, we can go back to our regularly scheduled lives and do something with them other than flaming people and arguing without supportive evidence. *shrugs*

[Mwork]

I've seen plenty of supportive evidence, from BOTH sides of this argument.........don't see how you could've missed that.

[Summon Illusion]

For example, chemists are required since it's too risky for a charge meter to turn to zero (not very high faith for some time in the game). Mediator skills, are not for battle, but making people's faiths extremely high or low. So someone could say the mediators are just as important. Their purpose isn't direct battle. Thiefs are extremely useful as well, together with other classes.

...So pretty much, what class ISN'T good?

[T.G. Cid]

If only Square would make a sequal that had a Vs. mode
so that we could test these ideas. I have a pretty good couple of teams.