Knights are the best job class, and I am prepared to defend that statement.

[Mwork]

I GOT IT!!!!


A team consisting of:


1 Dancer

Br. 97
Fa. 03

Primary - Dance
Secondary - Punch Art
Reaction - (anything)
Suport - (anything)
Movement - (anything)

R.hand - (that bag that increases speed)
L.hand - (nothing)
Head - Thief Hat
Body - Secret Clothes
Accessory - Setiemson


and
4 Dancers

Br. 97
Fa. 03

Primary - Dance
Secondary - (Anything)
Reaction - Sunken State
Support - Attack UP
Movement - (anything)

R.hand - (anything)
L.hand - (nothing)
Head - Twist Headband
Body - Rubber Costume
Accessory - Bracer



Ok. Now that 1 Dancer has +5 Speed with her equips with an added Auto Haste. This assures that Dancer's turn will come up first. She'll just wait for now. Now, I'll have placed my other 4 Dancers in a line. When their turns come up, I'l have the 4 do Nameless Dance. Then when the fast Dancer's turn comes up again, I'll Earth Slash the other four, activating the 4 Dancers' Sunken State, which turns them invisible. Then I'll just leave them like that. Since the Dancers aren't doing any actions (I just choose wait) their invisibility won't wear off. They'll keep Nameless Dancing until the Lancers are Frogged! Then they can easily dispose of them.

[Jay Ayanami]

LoL that is really funny.

[Lans Tartare]

Mwork, you are making huge assumptions here:
1. you are assuming that his knights will be in perfect position to hit wizards.
2. in fact, in about every map, there is a way to position your men so that at least one of them can not be reached by melee attacks.
3. Draw Out wizards aren't affected by innocent, even it it hits. Also, the status wears off. Any other status except Oil, which can't be cast, will not affect the Wizards. In addition, if he kills a wizard, that status goes off when she reraises.
4. Wizards are not slow class, contrary to common believe. In fact, they have the same base speed as Lancers and Knights, 10% higher than that of the Squire. All classes have the same speed growth except for Ninja and Thief. Therefore the speed point is moot.
5. Chantage works when one's CT is filled.
6. Haste gives a 1.5x advantage in CT time.
7. Thus, the wizards will have their turn before the knights get their second set of turns.
8. You are forgetting about the 2 Math Skill wizards. There is a spell called Dispel Magic that removes Magic Defense Up. Unless he gains them from items, it can be removed.
9. MP can be easily recharged with the Move-MP up ability.
10. All Wizards require at least 2 hits from some source to die.
11. With 2 rune swords and such, you lose the Excalibur and Chaos Blade bonus.
12. Chameleon Robe ensure that he can't use Holy to hit them. Thus, he must use Flare, which means he will have a substantial chance of damaging his own team as well as mine.
13. Granted, Chantage is not something you can just waltz into a store and buy. However, you can get multiple copies of it by poaching.
14. You forget that with Draw Out, the wizards can easily set up their own Haste, Protect, and Shell.
15.

That Dancer team will do next to nothing in damage, of course, compared to the HP levels. There is no way they can do it fast enough before the enemies get their turn to 1. use a healing skill 2. get their turn in general. You forget that even though they have low faith, they can still be hit by attacking spells that are calculated. Of course, that will do nothing in damage, but it tells the other player where your Dancers are by looking at where the spell hit. After that, all you need is to go there and beat the Dancer to death. It is possible to attack empty spaces with melee, Draw Out, or magic.
I'll have to confirm this again with Ryan, but it is known that many reaction abilities will not occur if you are performing an action. Those actions include charging, singing, and dancing, or at least in my experience. Unless you want to argue that a 97 Brave Knight somehow missed the reaction Sunken State 3 times in a row while dancing on several occassions. Nevertheless, lets assume you can set that up.

Here is how the fight will go:
1. Set up the sunken state or whatever.
2. Knights go after the one that isn't invisible.
3. 1 hit will kill that one.
4. One knight calculates, and finds all the invisible Dancers.
5. The others go, leaving 1 Dancer alive.
6. The invisible Dancer gets her turn. She moves somewhere.
7. Knight calculate again, finds new location.
8. Knight kill the last Dancer.

Why did I leave out the Dance action? It's fairly simple: it takes forever to charge, usually about 8-12 turns. It gets even longer with people that are Hasted. Therefore that team doesn't work.

Jay, you are totally ignoring the 3 Wizards with 3 faith:
1. Magic spell works by K(MA)(C Faith)(T Faith)/10000*Zodiac capatibility=damage. Now, assume that damage=300 with high faith wizards, it means that the spell will do 300/18=16 damage. (FFT truncates decimals, so it will not round up to 17)
2. 16*5=a whooping 80 damage. That will really hurt.
3. % MP Switch to work=Brave/100. There is a 3% change that it won't work. What are the chances of that happening? You still have to deplete MP first.
4. The only class that gets an advantage in MA growth is the Mime class. Contrary to common belief, magicians do not have higher MA growth than normal classes. They just have a better class bonus stat. Those are two different concepts.
5. If it is true that you raised your knights as magicians, they will have much much lower HP than normal knights. In fact, they will have higher MP than normal, but you aren't even using it in any shape or form.
6. Chantage gives Auto-Regen and Auto-Reraise until it is removed from that unit, either by Breaking it or Stealing it. Neither is possible with Maintainance.
7. If you calculate Flare, you are liable very liable to damage your own units. If you heal with Holy, you are liable to hit mine, which will heal them. In either case, it's a give or take situation.
8. Mine will have their MP depleted before HP. Thus, it takes more than 1 turn nearly always to kill a wizard, with spells. Your knights will be near death or dead if you kill one of my wizards (which, by the way, will get right back up no matter what).
9. Kikuijimoji isn't the only Katana that I have. I also have Chirajiraden. That doesn't require a row.
10. You are also forgetting that you need a turn to resurrect someone.
11. It is impossible to kil the low faith wizards with spell in one turn, no matter what you are using.
12. You say that we don't have to be fighting in a flat area. That gives even a bigger advantage to my Wizards. In fact, it means it will not be possible for your knights to get to them in one turn, which means no melee attacks, which means you can't kill the low faith wizards. Even if you are right next to me, it's quite easily to position the starters so that at least one will not be able to be reached by one space melee attacks. You have no long range and non-magic based attacks, so you have no way to kill the low faith wizards.
13. %hit rate of Pray Faith is based on caster's and target faith. With a character that has 3 faith, it will have about... 1% chance of actually hitting. Even if it works, Pray Faith makes the affected person's Faith to be 150% of what it is supposed to be. That's a big 1 increase in faith.
14. My wizards will do 2x the damage your knights can. With Holy they will do 600, so they can heal themselves right there. With Flare they will do over 500. There are 2 of them, so 500*2=1000. I don't know about you, but I've never heard of normal units with over 1000 HP. Even L 99 Tiamats only have 999.
15. I won't be calculating spells. Whey would I do that when Using Masamune would give me all the status effects I'll need?

Your total neglect of factors has led to that conclusion. It is, in fact, your knights that won't survive.
Oh yeah, and you assume that Chantage is random. It's not. Even time the unit's CT fills, the person will reraise. So don't give me that "what is Chantage doesn't work in time"

[Mwork]

Well, I'm done defending Jay's Knights. I'm still sure they can win, but it was Jay who was trying to prove his party was invincible, not me. So I'll let him debate that.


On the Dancers, they're a counter team for the Lancers. Lancers. LANCERS

I'm not planning on using Wiznaibus to attack. I know it's an almost useless ability. Like I said, they'd be using Nameless Dance. Also, that one Dancer is supposed to die. She's served her purpose, I don't need her anymore and I can't use her effectively, so I'll just let her get killed. Even if the other 4 did get hit, they're Sunken State would keep them invisible. Hey, I'm not stupid. I wouldn't keep the Dancers in that same spot if somehow the Lancers spotted them. That's just retarded. I would move away. So they would just Nameless until the Lancers are inflicted with some nice status ailments, preferably Frog, then just whack the froggies to death with their cloth.

And that last part, I'm not sure what you mean exactly.
That whole "I'll have to confirm this again with Ryan, but it is known that many reaction abilities will not occur if you are performing an action. Those actions include charging, singing, and dancing, or at least in my experience. Unless you want to argue that a 97 Brave Knight somehow missed the reaction Sunken State 3 times in a row while dancing on several occassions. Nevertheless, lets assume you can set that up."

And remember, the Dancers are made to beat the Lancers NOT the Knights.







O_O wow! I didn't think anyone here would know any of the calculations for an attack. I thought I was the only one in this message board.

[Lans Tartare]

Letting that Dancer die is a batant waste of troops. Not only does that increase your casualty list, but you'll have to set that party up from scratch again. You don't have a way to revive that character.
By the way, what I mean is that while performing an action that doesn't occur immediately, reaction and evasion seem to not work. This is because a 97 Brave knight didn't use Sunken State when hit 3 times by 3 different enemies. This is probably not a coincidence, but I'll wait for confirmation.
By the way, countering Lancer is extremely easy. Just use some kind of strong unit equipped with Concentrate, and it goes right through Escutcheon II.

[Mwork]

Increase my casualty list? That does not matter one bit. I couldn't care less about that. What bad can it do?

Set that party up from scratch?

What?

Ah. I see. But the Lancers would still have extremely low chances of ever finding the Dancers. It doesn't matter that their evasion is non-existant while performing.

[Lans Tartare]

It means that if you can't end the fight within 3 turns, which probably you can't due to the long charge time and inaccuracy of songs and dances, that dancer will turn into a crystal. It's a vastly inefficient party.
The evasion doesn't matter. However, reaction does. As I have said twice in this post, reactions seem to not occur while performing a prolonged action. That is, you CANNOT have a Sunken State activated after they start dancing. Get that through your thick head.

[Mwork]

I don't know what you're thinking, but that was already through my thick head a looong time ago.


The reaction has no need to be activated more than once. Once the Dancers have been Earth Slashed, they'll continue Dancing without choosing any act and will remain invisible. And there's almost no chance of the Lancers hitting them and removing the invisibility.


Vastly inefficient? No, not a whole lot, they can still win the battle. I knew from the very start that Dancer would turn into a crystal. But that doesn't matter.

And not so inaccurate. Nameless Dance has a 50% chance of taking effect on a target. That's pretty decent.

[Lans Tartare]

Once again, you have missed my whole point. While dancing, the Dancer will not respond with a reaction is what I am confirming.
Training a new Dancer each time you participate in a battle is extremely inefficient.
50% chance, assuming normal Zodiac capatibilities, assuming none of the characters are guarded against its effects, which is easy. Just put a ribbon on, and your entire plan gets slashed to nothing. It's possible to equip a ribbon on a Lancer.

[Mwork]

I ALREADY KNEW THAT A LOOONG TIME AGO!
I got the point when I asked you to explain your post because I didn't understand what you were trying to say. But once you explained, I KNEW.

Those Dancers were made just for THAT ONE battle against THOSE PARTICULAR Lancers. I would never ever ever EVER use this party on normal play.



Hey, T.G.C.

You say Agrias can Wiznaibus 600HP off of an enemy?
That is IMPOSSIBLE.

Wiznaibus Damag = [(1 +Br / 100) * PA]

So, even with the highest Br. and PA possible (100 and 99) here's how the attack would turn out.

[1 + 100 / 100) * 99] = (1.01 * 99) = 99.99 = 100 HP

I'm assuming you meant to type 60HP, or, more likely, 6HP, since Dancers don't normally have a PA of 60.

[Lans Tartare]

You missed yet another point:
Reaction abilities do not occur if your character is charging for Charge, Spell, Dance, Song, or Limit. I said I am going to confirm this soon. It true, they it's impossible to set up the party you have mentioned.

By the way, it's possible to get multiple copies of Chaos Blades and Excaliburs without duplicating. You can simply go into one of the stages with Ninjas (HORROR or Araguay Woods), and catch them, provided that you are at the right level.

[Mwork]

This is just dumb now!


Once Sunken State activites, the unit will remain invisible NO MATTER WHAT. The only things that would remove the invisibility are if the Dancer takes damage or Acts. Now, Once you start Dancing, you don't have to keep Acting to execute more Dances. They just keep going on and on. So you'll never choose Act, therefore the invisibility will not wear off.




And yes, I already knew you can Catch rare weapons. Didn't everybody? You just interpretted that other post of mine wrong, I guess.

[Lans Tartare]

I will repeat this for the last time:
It has been in my experience that reactions do not occur if you are charging, dancing, or singing. Thus, it is impossible to put them into the invisible mode after they start to dance. If you activate it before then, once the Dancers start going, they will lose the invisibility.
You said he must have cheated because he had multiple copies of the special knight swords.

[Mwork]

Yeah, by Catching.


OH! I forgot this.


I see that point you say I've been missing. I misread your posts. Happens all the time with me, so try not to let it bother you.

And to all those posts I respond:
Well, I guess that you haven't had enough experience then, because Sunken State will in fact activate even if the Dancers are already performing.

[SerGe]

<small>Whoa, this is a friggen' big discussion! Now, I have a small question (of sort)s to Mwork.

Okay, Jay explained that the est you could get is a stalemate, because everytime your lancers killed a knight, he would revive them the next turn with the knight way at the back.

Now assuming the HP damage totals you stated, you would be able to kill each Knight with one Lancer, correct?

Now, if each lancer takes on each of the advancing knights, wouldn't there be one Lancer left, as there would be no knight for him to kill.

Now, if this were true, wouldn't you be able to find some way to pass the advancing guards with the one Lancer, and kill the Knight at the back?

I'm not a super strategist as you guys, so that's why I'm not too sure.