Knights are the best job class, and I am prepared to defend that statement.

[Mwork]

Hmmm.....that slipped my mind completely! Yes, yes, that could work.

But then there's a small chance of one the Jumps not landing on time, that's why I had originally planned on having all the Lancers stay with the four Knights.

Lemme see.....the Knights would have about 320 natural HP if they were leveled as Wizards. But he said that some were raised as Knights, so those would have around 380HP. With Maximillian and Grand Helmet equipped, that would bring the 380 up to 730. And a female Lancer would have 16 PA, which would be modified to 21 because of Attack UP. Then with the Ultimate Javelin, they would do....DAMMIT! Only 630HP worth of damage.

OK, maybe if I were to use Draw Out as a secondary, I could Masamune them. That would leave space for a Bracer. So the Lancers' PA would now be 25 with Attack UP. And they would hit for....750HP!! All right! That's enough to kill the strongest Knight.

[Lans Tartare]

While Dancing and Singing, the character's evasion is lowered to 0, like any other charge. While charging, Blade Grasp and other Brave based attacks do not work. I have not tested it with Sunken State specifically (to the point that I can remember it clearly), but it's reasonable to assume that the same applies to it. If you have not actually performed the action you said with those Dancers, it's more reasonable to believe that there would be no reaction.
Lancer's Jump ability will do 3/2 damage as calculated by (PA*Weapon Power) if equipped with a spear. Thus, a Lancer that has 16 PA, with a Javalin of 30 power, will do 640 a jump. Attack Up is calculated at the end, with the damage. That would mean it's a 960 damage with each jump, not 640. However:
Lancers and Knights both have the same class speed bonus. However, Knights will get their turn before the Lancers can come down from a Jump. This gives some opportunity to:
Put up Defense Up, and reduce the damage by 2/3. That only requires one knight, anywhere.
You are assuming that the Lancers get a chance to jump, and it's probable that the Knights can't get right next to the Lancers right away to attack. Thus, they will only move.
When that happens, the Knights do not need to charge up all 100 CT to act. It starts at either 33 or 50. Assuming the lower, 33, they will have to charge 166 CT at normal speed. With the 3/2 speed bonus, however, it's only 110 CT to be charged.
Your Lancers:
66 CT to be charged before getting a turn to act. They, you have 50 more to charge for the Jump ability. That's 116 CT to be charged. It's more than enough for the Knights to move out of the way.
With Setiemson, the Lancers will not have any back EVA, givin the Knight a simple option of just attacking from the back.

By the way, you've yet to come up with a reasonable way to beat my Wizards with any of the current party without totally ignoring a huge number of factors.

[Mwork]

GAAAHH!! You and your "you're assuming blah blah blah and you assumed blah blah blah because you're making huge assumptions blah blah blah blah blah blah" all the time.

I'm not assuming, man. I never assumed the Knights would be in perfect position to hit the Wizards! I never said they'd be able to physically attack right from the start, they would have to make their way to the Wizards. I never forgot about the Math Skill Wizards. Didn't you read my original post? All the Knights would have do to is calculate Petrify on those Math Skillers, if the spell somehow can't be cast only on them (meaning, some of the Knights are also targeted) then just Doubt Faith. Math Skilling Wizards are useless for a while. Then when it wears off, try Petrify again, and if not possible then just Doubt Faith again! That'll work until Petrify will be able to be calculated on the Math Skilling Wizards. Then the Knights would head for the Draw Outers. I never forgot the Draw Out Wizards. As I mentioned, they're Draw Outs would do low damage now (Magic Defense Up) AND the Knights have Regen, so no worries there. Also, I know that the Draw Outers would Masamune and Kiyomori their teammates! But still, what good would Protect do? The Wizards would have crappy as hell HP. Around 250HP and about 190MP. So the Excalibur would damage 305MP, 229MP with Protect. Either way, the Wizard's MP is gone. Then Chaos Blade, 582HP normally, 436 with Protect. Either way, your HP is gone. Meaning the Wizard is dead. And so what if their MP is recharged when you move? You're either dead before it happens or it happens, but you haven't been touched by the Knights yet, so that won't help either. And when a Wiz is revived and moves, a Knight just Attacks again, killing her again. Shell, well that's good for the Knights because you'd be absorbing less HP from Holy. And the Regen, that's also pointless. Your HP will be completely filled until the time when the Knights smack the Wizard, at which point the Wizard dies. Regen wouldn't be much help to a dead Wizard. The only one that isn't useless is Haste. But despite that, I still believe the Knights have a better chance of winning.

Totally ignoring a huge number of factors?!?!
.....what the hell?!?! What did I ignore??? My first post had not left anything out.




Dancers
IT WILL WORK FOR SURE. IT IS THE TRUTH. If you keep not believing me, then go ahead and try it yourself, you stubborn Tartare. But it DOES work.

I was calculating NORMAL attacks, not Jumps. I wasn't gonna take any chances of the Knights moving away when I Jumped, even though there's a small chance of that happening.






Also, the Knights can't possibly set up Defense Up during battle. Protect maybe, but never ever Defense Up.


Nope. Attack Up's 3/2 damage bonus is applied to PA in the calculation, not to the end with the damage. If you don't believe me (which you probably won't), then check the FAQ.





I'm sure I made a couple of mistakes there. I was in a hurry. I'll recheck it later when I have some time.

[Lans Tartare]

Once again, you've ignored something very important:
Ribbon.
The only status you can impose on my characters is Innoncent. Granted, Oil can be as well, but there are no Bombs in the battle.
Since there is such a speed disparity caused by the Knights Auto-haste, the parties will go with all 5 in a row.
Assume he imposes Innocent:
Just use Draw Out with the wizards. Chirajiraden will do... around 450, even with Magic Defense Up. That requires 2 Draw Out to kill a knight. There are 3 of them that can perform the action. You can do the rest of the math. As soon as he gets within a certain area, it's almost impossible to survive. Since Draw Out have a larger range than melee attacks, wizards have a great chance of getting the hit in than the Knights.

By the way, have you even tried the Dancer trick?
Attack UP is applied to the end damage. Just equip the skill and look at your PA. It doesn't change, but the damage does. Since it's multiplication, the effect of Attack UP is the same at the end regardless of where it is put. However, there is no change in actual stat.

[Mwork]

It doesn't change your PA on the screen, just in the calculation. Yes, I know it doesn't matter because the damage is still the same. I was just correcting you. Like I said, look in the FAQ. You'll see it is applied to PA.



"Once again, you've ignored something very important"

What have I ignored before that part about forgetting the Wizards had Ribbons equipped?




Try the Dancer scenario if you wish. You'll see.


Also, why do you keep bugging me on that whole Knights vs. Wizards battle? I have nothing to do with it. It's between you and Jay.

[Lans Tartare]

I don't really care what FAQ says. It does not change the stat. Therefore it must not apply to PA, but in other other part of the process. It does apply to the damage, and it's more reasonable to say that it applies to damage.
How would you petrify anybody that has Ribbon on, which can't be stolen nor broken. Even if both target and castor have 1000000000000 Faith (which, by the way, is impossible), it will not do anything.
I have tried a similar scenario with Dancers, and it did not work.
It's very simple: you are the one tryng to depict is totally out of proportion, with each argument excluding a huge number of factors/variables that are involved.

[Mwork]

What huge number of factors???????????????

You keep saying that, but never actually telling me what you believe it is I'm ignoring when I ask you.


Don't want to believe me? That's fine. Just forget about that whole Attack Up thing.





And what you said about the Ribbon, just read my post. The one before yours.




What was that scenario you mentioned you tried?


Because I have seen a performing Dancer get smacked and her Sunken State was still activated. Several times.

[Lans Tartare]

It's very simple:
1. the knights do not start right next to the wizards, therefore they can't simply walk up and attack everyone.
2. positioning
3. chantage
4. ribbon
5. turn clustering
6. a myriad of other factors.

Setup
1 dancer
97 brave
performing slow dance
hit 3 times
sunken state
didn't work
Are you going to tell me it's coincidence?

[SerGe]

"DAMMIT! Only 630HP worth of damage."


<small>Well yes, it would only do around that much, BUT you may be forgetting something really important so you don't have to use a bracer.


How is he gonna heal?

Quite simple, ain't it? He already stated that Holy would only heal about 2-300 HP, so one more turn would screw him, wouldn't it?

Or, if he wanted to, he could try and reraise his other knights, but then your Lancers would kill them if the jumps were to hit them on the first shot. Heck, you could just equip Concentrate on the one Lancer to get a 100% chance of nailing the one knight.

And if he tried to kill you with the one knight, his chances would be real slim if you have the Eustacheon (or however it's spelt) II equipped, right?

[Mwork]

1.) When did I ever say, or even imply, the Knights could just attack from the get-go? I had posted that they would go and attack the Wizards. Go and attack the Wizards. That word pretty much says they'll have to Move (quite far, most likely) in order to get to the Wizards.

2.) What about positioning?

3.) My other posts all had a part where I mentioned some the Wizards would have to get killed repeatedly until the Knights would be able to kill them all before any one of them had the chance to revive. I'm positive that by saying that I was not ignoring the Chantages.

4.) Alright, you don't want to read that post I told you to reread. So I'll just tell you here what it said. I had posted that I forgot the Wizards were wearing Ribbons, which is why I had originally said the Knights would Petrify them. Because I forgot about Ribbon, not ignored it. So, instead of Petrify, just Doubt Faith those Math Skilling Wizards.

what other factors?





Coincidence? No.

It all depends on what you hit the Dancer with. Against some attacks, Sunken State won't activate. It seems to be only physical attacks will trigger Sunken State while the Dancers are peforming. Try it and see.

Also, Earth Slash wouldn't trigger the reaction. I was going to post this a lot earlier, but I've been pretty busy today. But that still wouldn't stop the Dancers from beating the Lancers. That fast Dancer would just Attack as many of her partners as she can before the Lancers are able to reach them. After all, only one invisible Dancer is needed to Frog all the Lancers. It'll just take more time that way.

[Jay Ayanami]

Lans, what crawled up your ass and died?

You have stooped to petty smart ass comments that I amlost don't feel like gratifying with a response. Almost.

I ignored the 3 wizards with poor faith, but it does not matter. Here we go:

Today I cracked open the old Playstation and popped in Tactics. My best Knight-Calculators (actually, since they were used as Mimes, they did, in fact have magic attack growth; I used to like using the Calculator - Mime team for quick kills) did 400 damage with Level3Holy. So the two Wizards with faith now have zero MP. The next of my Knights goes and kills those two off with Level3Holy. I raised some of my Knights as magic users, the others as Physical attackers. I did that so that I would have people who, when they became Calculators earlier, would be able to use the job class. It is not fun to have a Caulculator who cannot cast any spells. Flare can be countered with Holy or Cure 3. If I calculate Holy by CT, there is a good chance I will NOT hit you, because all of my people are the same and yours are different.

"Mine will have their MP depleted before HP. Thus, it takes more than 1 turn nearly always to kill a wizard, with spells. Your knights will be near death or dead if you kill one of my wizards (which, by the way, will get right back up no matter what)."

One turn to take away the MP, another to recast Level3Holy and kill it. If you are reraised, it is of no consequence. You are healed not much more than 200 HP (at the most) with Reraise, and that is easily reduced to zero with even my weakest magic Knights.

Chirajiraden still does not have the range Kikuimoji has, so you will somehow have to get close to me to hit me. I don't know how you are going to manage that.

"You are also forgetting that you need a turn to resurrect someone."

On the first round of my own turns, I would not need to ressurrect because none of my people will have died.

I would kill the low faith Wizards with physical attacks - not too difficult with a Chaos Blade and Excalibur in hand. It would simply be a matter of walking near you. If you managed to kill one, it would be ressurrected in a flash. Personally, I don't see how you can damage all my people enough so as to kill them and keep them dead.

You have 2 wizards with high faith. And they are dead. Therefore, you will not cast Holy. And, since MP switch depleted their MP, they will have to calculate it. And, at that point (according to you, at least) you will have damaged me. The only reliable way to target a character to heal is Level3Holy, and you would be healing me too. Let's hope you can target the person you need to heal with some other Calculate skill.

[i]My wizards will do 2x the damage your knights can. With Holy they will do 600, so they can heal themselves right there. With Flare they will do over 500. There are 2 of them, so 500*2=1000. I don't know about you, but I've never heard of normal units with over 1000 HP. Even L 99 Tiamats only have 999.[i]

That is pretty much worthless because they are both dead. They died in the first round. And then they ressurrect, I only have to cast Level3Holy (or whatever...just know I mean an offensive spell) to kill them. You are also assuming you will hit me. If you calculate the spell, as you said, you would be at risk of being it as well. You will not target me with Flare (with your high faith Wizards), because you have no MP. If you target me with your others, it will be weaker, and you will not be able to calculate. Besides...MP switch would have depleted their MP too, right?

If you are not calculating spells, then why have the ability equiped? If you have MP Switch on, how, then, do you plan to muster the MP to use Flare? You have no capacity to regain your MP. I am pretty sure there is no Draw Out ability that restores MP. How do you plan on Flaring me, unless by calculating, which you say you will not be doing?

"Even time the unit's CT fills, the person will reraise. So don't give me that "what is Chantage doesn't work in time""

Grow up. CT, while not random, will not necessarily come at a convenient time. Don't treat me like I am stupid, when you are the one equiping Calculate then saying "I won't be calculating spells". That makes no sense whatsoever.

[Jay Ayanami]

Forgive the HTML error, I am sure you are smart enough to figure out what it meant to look like.

[Lans Tartare]

Go ahead and use Level3 holy. You'll be healing 400 hp to my wizards. This just shows what an incompetent commander is capable of.
It doesn't matter how much my wizards raise at. When they reraise, it is their turn. Therefore it is not your knights that will get to go. You said that your knights have high faith, but you are protected against only 2-3 status effects. In one turn, I will be able to destroy your entire party using Frog/Petrify/Sleep/Stop, or whichever.
By the way, I have no incentive to get close to you. Because you can't afford to wait and let my high faith wizards that died to reraise, as they will crush your knights in one turn. That means I can just wait while your knights get near, upon which time I can choose whatever katana is needed.
It would be difficult to reach the low faith wizards. You forget that in the beginning, you get to position your units. Thus, even if I have one low-faith wizard that can't be reached by melee, you have no way of killing her before the others reraise.
You are speaking as if my wizards won't get a turn. That is totally false, and distortion of facts. Once a wizard resurrects, it's her turn. Thus, they will get to cast whatever spell is needed, be it L3flare, L3Frog, or whatever.
CT filling is entirely dependent on speed and related status effects. There is no random chance. Because the base speeds are the same, I know that my wizards will get their turn before your knights get their 2nd turn.
By the way, Move MP-Up will ensure that I have a way to restore MP, which will keep MP switch going.
Come to think of it, after reading that really poorly thought out plan you presented, there is absolutely 0 chance your knights can possibly win, with the exception in a scenario where they start right next to my wizards, with each one in a convenient position to land a melee hit right away.

Mwork:
I said it before, and I'll say it again, but perhaps a visual aid is better.
- wall | wall *wizard
|------------------------
|***
|**
or
-------------------
__ ***
___**
Tell me, how would the knights reach the wizards surrounded by the other wizards? If those are 3 faiths ones, it would be impossible to kill them before the others reraise.
Choco Attack is physical, last time I checked.

[Mwork]

Choco Attack = physical attack?!?!
Regular monsters don't have physical attacks.

That's more like a special attack. If it were a physical attack, don't you think Hamedo would stop it?


The only monsters with normal physical attacks are Byblos and the Ultima/Archaic Demons and Apandas and Worker 8.

Actually, I'm not positive if those are the right monsters, but I do know that there's only a few special kinds of monsters that have regular physical attacks, which would trigger Hamedo and Sunken State.


Try an actual physical attack. You know, where you have to choose the command "Attack." Those are physical attacks. You'll see it'll work.

[Lans Tartare]

Actually, Choco Attack is a physical attack. It triggers: Counter attack, Blade Grasp, Speed Save, Face Up, Brave Up, or whatever. It also triggers Sunken State under normal conditions (without charging).
By the way, Jump is a physical attack that triggers counter, etc, but not Hamedo. Hamedo only works with the Attack command. Attack and physical attacks are two different matters.