Western vs Eastern Fans

[Skyblade]

I think you are letting personal perception color these a bit.

I would say you are one to talk concerning this subject.

Exactly! I'm a qualified expert on the subject.

Although I'm certainly more objective in my analysis than many. At least I acknowledge when a game I don't like is still a good game.

XII has never been listed as one of the top games in the series. It hasn't been "vindicated by history", it's just that XII's fanbase has coalesced into a single group, while those who hate it have moved on to other, better games. There is still a huge majority of gamers and Final Fantasy fans who will dismiss XII out of hand if you mention it. The discussion on it is largely positive because only people who like the game bother to discuss it anymore. Final Fantasy VI and VII still get haters because they are games that are largely considered fantastic by the majority of series fans (or RPG fans in general). XII has always been considered mediocre, so it is not a game that needs to be torn off a pedestal in the minds of those who hate it. Most people who dislike the game just moved on and forgot about it.

Also, while Lightning may not be nearly as huge over here as she is in Japan, there are still tons of gamers who list her as a favorite Final Fantasy character. FFXIII failed over here far more because of the linearity and nonsensical plot than it did the characters. A lot of the characters were incredibly popular. Snow, Sazh, Lightning, and Fang are all listed among a lot of people's favorite characters. Maybe not among the core Final Fantasy fans, but among a lot of gamers in general? Definitely so.

XII never received the type of backlash over here that it did in Japan. Japanese fans were bitching about this game before it released and even after. It basically had the same deal as over there as XIII had over here in that it got great reviews but the fanbase over there seriously backlashed against it at the time. It has certainly subsided since then but the game never received as much attention over there as over here.

Um, yes it did. Do you even remember the amount of fan backlash XII got when it first released? It was reviled. People complained about nearly every aspect from it. The Gambit system was hated for being both too restrictive (in that 90% of the system was locked when you started the game) and yet still allowing the game to completely play itself. Vaan was loathedas a main protagonist, and this hatred only got worse when it was revealed that Basch was the original lead and it was changed to Vaan. The drop system and bazaar were criticized left and right, the combat systems was called innovative but incredibly flawed. The License Board was mocked for being overly simplistic, and nonsensical (why did you need LP to learn to put on a hat, again?). It may have gotten a lot of critical acclaim, especially from Famitsu, but it was never well received by the fanbase. It was no XIII, but it was no beloved entry.

I'm not saying that XII is suddenly "the bestest game evah!" but it basically has risen from "worst FF" to "meh, it was okay" considering how often I see people talk about how they hated until they let go of their preconceptions of what they wanted it to be, and then suddenly realize in their next playthrough that the game isn't half bad, I'd say XII has more going for it than you wish to believe because it doesn't work with your own views.

XII has plenty going for it, that's just not enough to make up for its massive flaws, in my opinion. The reason we see so many people talk about their rediscovery of the game and how fun it is has already been iterated: Nobody else talks about the game at all.

At that point I wasn't arguing that the game is bad. I was just pointing out that to a lot of fans and gamers, the game has failed and been forgotten. RPG players are not a small demographic, you can find fans on almost every gaming forum out there. Mention "Final Fantasy XII" and the response is a resounding "meh".

XIII is certainly getting heckled by the Western fanbase and while the cast is a mix bag, it is pretty obvious that Japan loves them a whole lot more than the Western fans do. The West certainly hated the game design the most about XIII, but its characters and story also have been far more criticized over here than in Japan where it is just gold. Not saying this means "the West hates XIII" as much as I'm saying that the West doesn't like it as much as Japan. Not that the Japanese liked XIII as a game as much but for them I think the story and characters redeem the game, whereas the West is usually the one wishing we could finally move on from the series.

I didn't get the from your initial post, but I will agree to that point.

Yes the haters moved on from XII, but you know what? They haven't moved on from FFs like FFII and FFVIII which still get more revile than XII does, despite being around longer. So in my mind, that tells me that XII has certainly moved on up in the fan community. It's no longer dirt, it's now just the worms in the dirt. I feel you are simply trying to keep the fires of the hatred of this game lighted, and while I disagree with your position, I can sympathize because I will probably be in the same boat in a few years when XIII's stock gets raised a little better. For the most part, I will say that FFX is pretty much the last non-controversial FF among the fanbase. Starting with XI, each new entry has become more divisive than the last. Still as much as I love XII and hate XIII, I find it amusing that XI and XIV have probably been more vindicated by history than either game.

Actually, they have.

Have you looked in the FFVIII forum lately? It's been pretty much nothing but positives for quite a while. It was bringing in plenty of hatred for a long time due to the persistence of people posting absolutely bonkers theories about the game (Future Esthar and Serapy [if you are indeed separate individuals], you will be missed). But once those quieted down, so did most of the hate. People going in to talk about the game fondly is far more common than people going in to bash it meaninglessly.

Heck, on my last foray into the FFII forum, I found far more defenders of it than people hating on it, and that is probably still the worst game in the series.

[Wolf Kanno]

Exactly! I'm a qualified expert on the subject.

Although I'm certainly more objective in my analysis than many. At least I acknowledge when a game I don't like is still a good game.

I'd say your knee jerk reaction still shows where you lean on these things, but that's coming from someone who is the same way.

Um, yes it did. Do you even remember the amount of fan backlash XII got when it first released? It was reviled. People complained about nearly every aspect from it. The Gambit system was hated for being both too restrictive (in that 90% of the system was locked when you started the game) and yet still allowing the game to completely play itself. Vaan was loathedas a main protagonist, and this hatred only got worse when it was revealed that Basch was the original lead and it was changed to Vaan. The drop system and bazaar were criticized left and right, the combat systems was called innovative but incredibly flawed. The License Board was mocked for being overly simplistic, and nonsensical (why did you need LP to learn to put on a hat, again?). It may have gotten a lot of critical acclaim, especially from Famitsu, but it was never well received by the fanbase. It was no XIII, but it was no beloved entry.

I am not saying XII wasn't hated but it also had its staunch defenders and many people who felt the game represented a refreshing direction for the series, something XIII didn't get much of, though it certainly had its own odd supporters. In truth what I mean by difference in flashback is that XII doesn't get heckled as much anymore, hell even just two or three years after its release people stopped finally bitching about it, I have not seen that happening with XIII. XIV came out and tanked, and there are still people talking about XIII being just as bad, so even a crappy fallow up didn't really deter the hatedom.

XII still gets criticized, as it should, but I have been surprised how often I find people actually talking about it in more of a positive light, such as the Gambit systems that everyone initially hated but now after several years of some awful A.I. party members, most people will pipe up and mention they wished the game used something like the Gambit system instead. The rest of the systems are certainly not perfect but they are not "absolutely soul crushing terrible" like you are trying to make them out to be (okay, maybe you nailed it with the bazaar). Even now I still see people on message boards from various gaming news sites and forums, taking a second look at XII and realizing that despite all its flaws, SE was on the right track which is more than can be said about XIII's game design.

XII has plenty going for it, that's just not enough to make up for its massive flaws, in my opinion. The reason we see so many people talk about their rediscovery of the game and how fun it is has already been iterated: Nobody else talks about the game at all.

Except these people rediscovering the game tend to be former haters who are turning around and seeing what's good about it, even if you can't see it, I don't feel it's fair to simply try to white wash that away. I mean, I can't think of another FF where I've seen this phenomena of "I used to hate it, then I went back and tried it again, and you know what, I had fun". I'm not saying these people have "awaken" to the games brilliance, instead I'm seeing a lot of people letting go of the bias they had initially going in that ruined the game for them, taking it for what it is, and realizing they enjoyed the experience. I mean seriously re-read the Vindicated by History thread, most of the post follow that trend.

Also, part of the reason people stopped talking about it as much around here may have more to do with that we don't have the numbers like we did back then . It may not have been the golden age of the forum, but for the longest time the highest amount of users on the site was around XII's release. The only reason XIII doesn't get as much hate around here is because I've been gone and I don't post in that forum so the people who do enjoy it can have peace of mind. Hell, we actually had to ban some members around XIII's release because they derailed every thread into a "why this game sucks" and then fought and insulted it's fanbase. XII certainly got hazed but I don't remember members being banned over it.

At that point I wasn't arguing that the game is bad. I was just pointing out that to a lot of fans and gamers, the game has failed and been forgotten. RPG players are not a small demographic, you can find fans on almost every gaming forum out there. Mention "Final Fantasy XII" and the response is a resounding "meh".

Yes, you can find anytype of fan if you look for them, but as I said, in my travels around the various gaming sites, I'm seeing less hatred of XII, and instead more admiration. Certainly not "best game ever" but once again more of a "they had a good idea about that" part of it is certainly just backlash from more recent entries which is similar to the Zelda Cycle, but even in non-FF threads and just simply RPG threads when people talk about world design and A.I. partners, XII does pop up occasionally, and despite what you may wish, I usually see a more positive spin. Will it be one of the greatest FFs, yes and no. I certainly feel its left a greater mark on the industry than X or XIII have in terms of game design direction. Whether that is a good thing or bad thing is a matter of personal opinion but I like to think that Xenoblade probably wouldn't have been as good if the development team hadn't been paying attention to XII.

Actually, they have.

Have you looked in the FFVIII forum lately? It's been pretty much nothing but positives for quite a while. It was bringing in plenty of hatred for a long time due to the persistence of people posting absolutely bonkers theories about the game (Future Esthar and Serapy [if you are indeed separate individuals], you will be missed). But once those quieted down, so did most of the hate. People going in to talk about the game fondly is far more common than people going in to bash it meaninglessly.

Heck, on my last foray into the FFII forum, I found far more defenders of it than people hating on it, and that is probably still the worst game in the series.

The haters always leave the specific forums eventually, except for a few . I'm talking about the general FF forums. Scan the "Least Favorite FF threads" or any comparative type threads and you will see that FFII and VIII are still very much the black sheep of the series. XII was certainly there with them, but last time I scanned through, I don't remember it getting nailed nearly as bad as the others. Of anything the game's gameplay is often lauded for saving it from the bottom tier. Granted, XII haters are still pretty vocal but you guys really can't compare to the XIII haters on that front until the next disaster comes out.

I would also say that VIII still gets it's trash talk threads, even if it sounds positive, a quick scan of what people say will usually turn up some derogatory commentary, same with FFII's threads.

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I don't want to derail this thread any further (seriously just go back to bitching in the Vindicated History thread, if you want a serious point by point debate on this, I may be rusty but I'm sure I can give you one.

[Mons]

I think the world is a pretty cool guy, he fights monster and not afraid of anything.