To elaborate, the issue here is that with the exception of Akihiko or Ken (concerning his mother) the times the characters deal with death is usually resolved by the characters realizing they have bigger fish to fry. Psychology is not interested in the choices you make as much as it's interested in why you make your choices. The issue with P3 is that while I will certainly agree it shows some powerful moments of characters making well thought reasons for their choices, it just as equally chooses to hand wave it as something silly as "saving the world".Originally Posted by Skyblade
I disagree about P3 doing this completely different, the war itself has only been fought for a little while but also that the struggle with both the Dark Hour and TV World are both still an outside force that is having a terrible affect on humanity and leading to it's soon to be annihilation. P3 does eventually devolve into the usual "oh my god this feels like the end of the world" and I would argue even before NYX arrives. Likewise, I feel that the "coping with an expanded view of reality" is kind of stretching it. Both P3 and P4 flip out initially but by the time the first set of new characters roll into the plot (Yukiko and Fuuka respectively) the cast and more importantly the new characters are not quite as fazed by things like I felt they should be. I mean the P3 cast does a better job of keeping the flow going since their goal was to end the Dark Hour but I was always a bit disappointed that their investigations rarely led anywhere until all hell breaks loose in the final few months. I was more disappointed by the P4 cast who spent very little time really discussing the TV world despite the fact that it was about 100x more bizarre than the Dark Hour, instead they dealt with the murders and only stumbled upon the truth in the poorly attached True Ending path.It may be more "subtle" in its psychological exploration, but I also feel it is far more thorough. Yes, it is more "subtle", if that's how you like to term it. I prefer to think of it as grounding the setting a bit more in reality. You don't get a sudden cataclysmic shift to the entire world (again, a standard SMT trope, probably one of the single defining traits of the series). Instead, we catch sight of a war that has been going on for the duration of human existence. The characters are stepping into worlds that run parallel to ours, but are apart. We see them coping with an expanded view of reality, rather than a complete reshaping of it.
I still disagree with this, while you may have a point with the first Persona, P2 once again doesn't work out quite like that. Instead we watch how humans destroy the world through the power of making rumors come true and it's actually a slow process. Demons appear, but only because people believe they are real and unlike most SMT games, no one reacts to except the party members and even then it's gone as soon as it's mentioned. Instead we watch the slow build up of minor rumors building up to full blown conspiracy theories coming to life in Innocent Sin, even more amusing when the big twist in the plot is the revelation that everything going on in the game can be traced back to a bunch of kids playing at the shrine a few years ago. In Eternal Punishment, it really feels more like a thriller picture as the story begins with the trail of a serial killer and leads into a conspiracy involving a local politician and his involvement in a secret cult which is being manipulated by the physical manifestation of mankind's own collective shadow. In both sides of P2, the world actually crumbles piece by piece with people worried about they perceive as real world threats (a terrorist cult, a serial killer, a populist political movement) until much later does it finally erupt into a full blown Armageddon.I think that the later games did a better job of embodying the negativity of humanity, and portraying the psychological powers at work. While there is still a supernatural element, almost everything is expressed in terms of the psyche. The realms of human thought and emotion, bleeding into our own. Rather than monsters overrunning and ravaging the world, we see Shadows, our own negativity, and how that literally tears humanity apart from within. It doesn't destroy the world around us, it eats away at us, at our minds and souls. Persona 3 does, I think, the best job of expressing this with the way Tatsumi Port Island is consumed by the Lost and gives in to despair as the game progresses further along, or how the Lost ebb and flow as you fight the Shadows. It's not humanity's negativity destroying the world with magic, it's humanity's negativity consuming that which makes us human. The fight between Philemon and Nylarthotep isn't some cosmic wager between gods (which is what I feel you get from Persona 2), it is a literal manifestation of the psychological struggle between two disparate halves of human nature. The positive and negative aspects of our souls at constant war with each other, merely by nature of their own existence.
In P1 we watch the party react to the suffering of a girl who both wants what is best for the world but is also secretly jealous and vindictive to those who can live a normal life. The characters react to her suffering brought forth by the supernatural incident but it's still them reacting to a situation and coping with it. In P2, the characters are watching as the human need for something interesting to happen manifests in the worse possible way and not only do we watch them cope with watching these horrors unfold, but watch them coping with the revelations of their own hand in making it happen. We watch how the supernatural muck has made their own inner thoughts manifest into an ugly reality they don't want to face. The difference between the Shadow selves of P2 and P4 is that P4's are too simple, they simply represent one thing that bothers these people whereas the Shadow selves of the P2 cast tend to be the whole shebang, Lisa's Shadow isn't just about her father issues, or her feelings of isolation due to her heritage, or the fact that her feelings for Tatsuya are just a coping mechanism for her, they represent all of the above. The P4 ones are just more memorable cause they present themselves as over-the-top caricatures.Yes, it's a more "subtle" analysis, because it's actually an exploration of the psychology of the situation. It's a study in how characters act and react, how opinions change and how emotions drive and shape us. How we cope with death, how we change and relate to it when we see it. When we face it, and how we hide from it. When we explore the Midnight Channel, we're exploring the layers of the human psyche. When we fight the Shadows, we're facing off against the negative aspects of humanity. Just from the shapes and names of Shadows and Personas, you can perform a character analysis of the individuals who bear them. Every Social Link, every character interaction, carries weight and looks at the themes in different ways. It's a far more complete look at the human psyche.
I disagree, the Persona games, any of them, don't deal with the same issues as the main line SMT series. SMT has always been an exploration in moral choice and defining humanity by making them deal with our different aspects of Law (Social Order) and Chaos (Natural Order). The drawing point of the series is about how we the player carve out our own path with the situations presented to us even when often our choices amount to "do you want to be blind or deaf? One of the other". In truth the true joy is being placed into desperate situations and making those tough choices because it says more about who we are than the world or the characters. Yes they certainly follow a formula and I feel that is what bothers you because P1 certainly re-uses it and P2-4 play with it, but that's not what MegaTen is about. It's formula is simply an easy means to get to the heart of the story which is survival and choosing the future of humanity based on ones own convictions for better or for worse. In all of the Persona series, mankind has the power to change their future and restore the status quo, in MegaTen, mankind is simply the third power in an eternal war in a broken multiverse.Persona and Persona 2 were great, but I still feel like they were just more Shin Megami Tensei games with a new name.
Most of the SMT series dealt with exactly the same sort of questions as they did. The plot may have a new cause, be driven by a new force, but that's about it.
This to me feels like a cop out answer because I laid out several examples of how the previous Persona games utilize psychological concepts very well for their stories and characters and you're trying to tell me that you can do the same with the SMT games? Have you really played them? I mean the SMT series is not really known for their gripping characters because it's not important. Most of the cast are either single minded gods and demons or human expy's for one of the factions. The game don't really use psychological elements like the Persona games do in any capacity they deal with bringing to life different folklore and religious figures but they are rarely used as a means for character analysis or evaluation. I mean when the world comes to an end in the original SMT1, the three main heroes are just kind of like "well this is terrible" and then proceed to get pulled to one for the games factions before they face-heel turn and you choose to either join them or murder them. Persona, since the beginning has always been a character driven series, whereas the majority of SMT is about you the player making choices and exploring the world.You can find psychological statements and points to analyze everywhere in any of the SMT games. ATLUS has never shied away from addressing such things. But I feel that it isn't until Persona 3 that the game does a good job of making that the core of the experience.
You trying to say P1 and P2 is the same as SMTI-IV or Devil Summoner franchise is like Bolivar trying to convince me that the SNES era of Final Fantasy is the same as the NES era and that the series didn't start proper until FFVII.
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