Sephiroth vs. Jenova, the real mastermind discussion

[Wolf Kanno]

Okay, I am well aware of what the creators and the Ultimania has said about this issue so there is no reason to bring that up. This is not a thread about who is the actual mastermind, this is a discussion about which choice do you feel is better. Basically do you agree with the established canon that Sephiroth was always in control all the time or do you prefer the debunked fan theory that Sephiroth was a puppet the whole time to Jenova. Make sure to state your reasoning.

[Skyblade]

I prefer the Sephiroth controlling Jenova theory. Mostly because I worked all this reasoning out for it in a previous thread.

Maybe this is why so many people, myself included, used to buy the Jenova was in control idea. See, it would make sense.

In fact, a Jenova-Puppetmaster-esque interpretation is really the only one that does make sense, covering all the strange Jenova-Sephiroth parallels and appropriately conforming to the story's intricacies. The game tells us what happens to anyone with Jenova cells when they become weak or lose self-confidence. Why should Sephiroth be an exception? So with this interpretation, we have a solid explanation for Sephioroth's change in motivation without compromising the integrity of his characterization.
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Jenova controlling Sephiroth does make some level of sense, but Square have apperently stated that it is another way around - Sephiroth takes control of Jenova, who appears as Sephiroth, it sounds more confusing than it is, but when you think about it makes a whole lot of sense, as the answer is there in front of you the whole time.

I might be able to clarify this a little more with (what else!) a Lord of the Rings reference. The Ring is a part of Sauron, forged from his blood, his strength, his emotions. Yet, when the final battle on the fields of Pellenor takes place, Sauron fears that Aragorn has the Ring and will use it against him. Why? Because, despite what the movies imply, the Ring could destroy Sauron. The Ring was the only thing that could undo him, either through its destruction or its power. Used by someone with a stronger will, it could purge Sauron from this world.

Why, then, did our heroes not take advantage of this? Because that would not change the nature of the Ring. It was still an object of evil and corruption. Merely desiring it can corrupt someone, and using it corrupts them further. Aragorn could have overcome Sauron, but using the Ring in that way would have had such an impact on his soul that he would have become a Dark Lord himself, one who (since he had defeated Sauron) would have been even more powerful. For that matter, Galadriel (had she been stronger willed than Sauron, a question never directly answered, since they never have a mental battle) would have been much the same thing. "In place of a Dark Lord you would have a queen! Not dark but beautiful and terrible as the dawn! Treacherous as the sea! Stronger than the foundations of the earth! All shall love me and despair!" New name, new personality, same evil.


Jenova works out much this way. It's a small, unassuming thing. It works its way in, shifting and corrupting. Putting on a friendly face, the Ancients do not recognize it until it is too late. As the calamity reaches its peak, the Cetra sacrifice everything to be rid of it, and it is lost for millenia. When found it is used, by those ignorant of its true nature and purpose. It begins, slowly, to eat away at their hearts and minds. During his time in the Lifestream, Sephiorth finally realizes what Jenova is, that it is more than just some nameless cells inside him, that it has a mind, a purpose, and that it is trying to use even him. He gathers his own will against it, and overcomes it. But no one makes it out of a fight like that without scars. Jenova as it was is gone, yes. One Dark Lord defeated. But using that power so warped and twisted Sephiroth that he no longer has the moral strength to proceed down a correct path. His old path, avenging the Ancients and restoring his mother is lost, for he destroyed Jenova himself and learns that he is closer to a descendent of that which destroyed the Ancients than Cloud is. So he dwells, with no path to follow, with no route to take, and with his very soul torn asunder by the conflict he won.

So he chose a new path.

[Sephiroth]

JENOVA is pure animal. Programed to fulfill its purpose of life and using its intelligence to do so. I don't rate a chameleon a possibly better marionette king than an actual person who is also very well partly an animal but not only (especially not mainly) as I never call an animal evil either (while JENOVA very well has the intelligence to understand such things, still it just lives for what it is coded to do and is "destructive in nature" other than a person who can do itn for several reasons). Also the game itself saying it was all Sephiroth's plan when they all arrived at the crater and realized they have chased JENOVA (as in "JENOVA's body" and not more like the rest shows since we know Sephiroth can project and transfer his consciousness like Emperor Palpatine from Star Wars or M. Bison from Street Fighter) never let me doubt it. Also Final Fantasy is about will power. Sephiroth can wipe the floor with JENOVA's will and the most intriguing thing about this is, that Sephiroth, who has even been written to have the strongest and an indestructable will somehow was surpassed by Cloud who is truly fighting for something that is precious to him. It surely is plot device but what isn't in DBZ ... wait, that was Final Fantasy. Anime villains are all the same. They are all defeated with love (or at least friendship in a way, something positive, normally love to an extent) that strengthens them. The power of everything good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh5HSgNgEWQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltuJsbOLGh0

Whether using the lifestream or the headquarters makes no difference.

And for the rest of the thread. We can think what we want. It will not change the truth.

[VeloZer0]

My personal best take is that Sephiroth is 'in control' so much as he is the one deciding on all the actions. However Jenova is not so much a manipulator of actions, but is behind the scenes subconsciously tweaking Sephiroth's motivations.

So Sephiroth's plan is his own, but the reason he wants to do it in the first place is because of Jenova messing with his head.

[Mercen-X]

Basically, if Jenova's influence were removed from Sephiroth, he would have gone a different route. "The way to dawn."

[Forsaken Lover]

Hojo is the root of all evil in FFVII.
Sephiroth and Jenova were just more of his playthings.

But between these two, I have written a previous threat about how Sephiroth's character during the game is completely inconsistent and nonsensical when you factor in what we saw in Nibelheim. He has entirely different goals and no real motive. As such I prefer to think Jenova warped his mind in some way or another as there's no other explanation for his "I want to take the Planet back for the Cetra/Jenova" changing to "Screw the Cetra, I wanna be a God!"

[Sephiroth]

So Sephiroth's plan is his own, but the reason he wants to do it in the first place is because of Jenova messing with his head.

Metaphorically spoken, like many things in Final Fantasy VII are meant, yes. This really comes to the natural urge to do something. Sephiroth has become a human JENOVA. He is his own person, his own individual but JENOVA is part of his instinct and such as we breathe, eat, go to the toilet, reproduce and sleep Sephiroth always had that. He just has so much control over himself (until On the Way to a Smile where he was a bit weakened so he needed to link his consciousness to memories to become more indestructible) that he can use the part of his personality, "JENOVA", his "Id", that he can do with it whatever he wants. It is not his master but a normal part of his being, like we have as well (except it not the nature of JENOVA for us). In the end it doesn't change much about what both do as it is pretty much the same but I have yet to see super villains who are not destructive in any way.

Sephiroth always had been an arrogant person and his motives changing, better said, modifying (not even much, he still thinks he is superior and now just wants to rule everything without avenging the Cetra) is just a result of him realizing that he is no Cetra at all so he doesn't need to fight for them as he is what actually eradicated them (again metaphorically of course; he didn't do that at all - except you count the last strike with Aerith but I meant 2000 years before by decimating them).

[MJN SEIFER]

Jenova controlling Sephiroth does make some level of sense, but Square have apperently stated that it is another way around - Sephiroth takes control of Jenova, who appears as Sephiroth, it sounds more confusing than it is, but when you think about it makes a whole lot of sense, as the answer is there in front of you the whole time.

Ah....

I think, based on the way I ended it that might be something I wrote when I was trying to come up with theories about Final Fantasy, and state them as factual (though I'm surprised at myself for saying that Square said so, but not that surprised at myself because I was like that back then, sadly). I was basically trying to be the next Future Esther, but I was clearly failed as his theroies made sense and were planned better, and were more than just "the answer was there".

If it was a direct lie (which wasn't what FE did) I appologise, though if this was a genuine thing that Square said that I forgot about it's okay. EIther way, I don't do that now.

Weird being suspicious of yourself, right?

[Sephiroth]

Weird being suspicious of yourself, right?

I think it is one of the most normal things to be somehow disgusted by the own person or ashamed of how you were in the past. We are in a continous learning process.

[Bolivar]

The Jenova/Sephiroth relationship is one of a group of plot elements that was subtly written to be ambiguous - it's up to the player to decide what really happened and its success is evident, given the ensuing debates to this day.

The sophistication and success of the writing is part what made FFVII the standout game for the medium that is.

[Sephiroth]

... it's up to the player to decide what really happened ...

Except for the fact that it is directly stated in the Northern Crater that it was Sephiroth's plan (unequivocally) all along while JENOVA is shown animalic and it was also stated he uses her Reunion to achieve his goal so those with the other theory should have just played the game. Something explicity shown in an unequivocal way with all parts of a puzzle being called ambigious is a bad excuse for someone who does not like what actually happens, still the puzzle only has one way to solution and one picture, without looking at you. I don't know you.

[VeloZer0]

Yeah, but isn't it just someone from in game saying it? I mean, they have no way of knowing for sure either. And if memory serves me correctly it was Hojo, who I don't necessarily label as a credible source. (Or at least a trustworthy one.)

[Sephiroth]

Yeah, but isn't it just someone from in game saying it? I mean, they have no way of knowing for sure either. And if memory serves me correctly it was Hojo, who I don't necessarily label as a credible source. (Or at least a trustworthy one.)

Hojo fully discovered the phenomenon of Reunion and it was 100% verified when he arrived at the crater. He himself said he was wrong first but corrected everything then. Hojo is, despite Sephiroth hating him, the scientist who fully understood the nature of JENOVA as he stole Gast's documents and found out what Gast did not know.

When a moment of enlightenment in the game itself is not credible you may not trust a single line in the entire game. Or to say it better, all answers lie in the game, as Tetsuya Nomura said.

[Wolf Kanno]

Technically Nomaru and I think Kitase have confirmed that it was all Sephiroth all along in the Ultimania for I beleive Advent Children? I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure this was one of the plot threads the creators actually spoke out about because some fans felt the idea of Sephiroth being controlled made him a deranged but tragic victim but the creators want you to know he's just an evil guy.

To get this back on topic though, this is not a thread about who was in control it's about which would have made for a better story in your own opinion. I actually prefer the idea of Sephiroth being used by Jenova but believing it's his own plan because I feel it gives more depth to a rather flat character.

[Sephiroth]

I wrote a treatment of over 30 pages only about this character. He is not as flat as you think. And it is not a "oh, I like him because he is so attractive" treatment but only about his character, life and everything mentioned in the official material. The Compilation characters are brilliantly developed. No wonder, the more you add the more dimensional they become. The "being of evil" (the nature of evil) itself always is flat somehow, even if it has some human motivation, which Sephiroth has.

And I think, as said, it is better for Sephiroth to be the main villain as he is not just an animal and it would not have fit his character and abilities at all, not to mention it is weird to have those wannabe-villains that just were not the villains but are only revealed to be the controlled one at the very end or it not being mentioned at all while at least being implied. All that can go the void.

1. ... but I probably couldn't about his actual character ...

2. He has as much depth as Ex-Death or Emperor Mateus.

1. It is about his actual character.
2. Lol. I can't say, actually I don't need to say more to that because it is flat-out not true. Those old Final Fantasy villains have no depth at all because it is not focussed on their character for real and for Sephiroth it just was very well focussed on him. Replay the game. It all makes sense as much as possible. Sephiroth's hunger for power reflects his feelings about being superior to anyone and wanting to prove it. Not to mention that his pride has been hurt by Cloud so no wonder he wants it even more but in the first place he is a "spoiled child" who has always been the very best like no one ever was and so of course he reaches out for more of that. By the way, revenge, arrogance and all that human stuff is enough to write a good and reasonable character (somehow reasonable). You wish for something impossible to be told. Really reasonable destruction of something good and living. And that is not the very nature of us. Also again it is no matter of feeling. It is a fact, Sephiroth was written more human now. He had friends, he was very arrogant in the first place but not really that he showed off all the time as he's not the type (or at least was, no he has Cloud to torment). His grudge was more developed, he tainted te Lifestream and laughed about Aerith because of how powerless she was compared to him as he continues to become stronger and that just supports his arrogance. That is called addition. Sephiroth has a very human character-wise weakness and that makes him very good when it comes to that. Surely many villains are arrogant but this one is really developed.