Sephiroth vs. Jenova, the real mastermind discussion

[Wolf Kanno]

He's flat coffee5.gif

The fact you could write a 30 page dissertaion is remarkable but I probably couldn't about his actual character because beyond his back story, he is largely a petty jumble of overused villain cliches. I don't feel the Compilation added anything to his character. He's got a heart breaking back story but then he just goes crazy and wants to destroy the world so he can be god, even when his plan doesn't make sense in relation to the actual events going on in the game.

He has as much depth as Ex-Death or Emperor Mateus.

[Bolivar]

Mateus didn't have a back story and X-Death hardly had one at all.

Also, Sephiroth (the EoFF member), I think you're overstating how unequivocal your evidence really is, particularly considering one of the major themes of the game is the illusion of agency.

[Sephiroth]

Also, Sephiroth (the EoFF member), I think you're overstating how unequivocal your evidence really is, particularly considering one of the major themes of the game is the illusion of agency.

Unequivocal is not what I want, it is what it is. The game itself tells you several lies and comes to the point were everything is explained step by step. And we all know that. Explaining something for the sake of just showing another illusion (that is never ever revealed as such) is not what the game is like. The Northern Crater only shows one new big lie (a half-truth) and that comes from no one but - guess who - the guy who twists their mind all the times and that is Sephiroth saying Cloud didn't exist 5 years and that he is a clone. That he is a "clone" (in the Compilation: guy who has JENOVA cells) is the true part that he was created is the lie. And even that is explained to be wrong. You want a direct evidence and that is one. Not accepting it means you are not accepting any evidence at all because there cannot be a thing more direct than saying it was Sephiroth's plan all along. Except you want: "By the way (breaking the fourth wall) for you guys: Sephiroth is the main villain and had the full power over JENOVA. And that is no lie as we write this for you to know the answer." You cannot expect that. As pretty much everyone you took a part of my post and ignored the rest that actually is enough to explain it. I could easily tell you the Ultimania Omega says the same thing, that Hojo found out about this after doing his research - which was why JENOVA's body was in the HQ, as he thought it initiated the Reunion - but you probably would say that the Ultimania was written afterwards and then continue to ignore the text in the game itself - which pretty much makes the whole convesation no good. My counter argument for your hypothetical case of the game generally making it hard to believe something and having the theme of illusion making it impossible to say what actually is would be, if you cannot trust anything you cannot trust the game to have this theme as well. As well as you cannot trust the things that you really like and think of as given because you don't know if it really is. But I don't need that. Things are and things are not. Believe me. This is no evil talking of me who just wants to lure you joining the dark side.

[VeloZer0]

Also, Sephiroth (the EoFF member), I think you're overstating how unequivocal your evidence really is, particularly considering one of the major themes of the game is the illusion of agency.

Except you want: "By the way (breaking the fourth wall) for you guys: Sephiroth is the main villain and had the full power over JENOVA. And that is no lie as we write this for you to know the answer." You cannot expect that.

I think that is the point. At every turn in this game we are exposed to memories and explanations which are either lies, false or distorted by perspective. Given this environment I don't see why we are expected to believe a character who just happens to get the last word in edgewise. The game cultivates the atmosphere where we are supposed to not trust anyones interpretation of what is going on, meaning there is ambiguity to everything.

In my opinion this is one of the attractive pieces of storytelling in the game.

[Sephiroth]

I think that is the point.

You are missing the relevant point here. Your point is one aspect of the game but it is not omnipresent in the whole game and it is supposed to be revealed until the end. Some guy who is one of the most revealing plot devices with him researching the lifeform that the story is about without any problems admits he was wrong because what is right has been shown at that point of the story. And ignoring that it is one of the "the mist starts to disappear" moments takes away the purpose of the game's storytelling. You must admit that this is getting polemical. Final Fantasy VII is a puzzle that is meant to be solved. And as mentioned it is just one certain puzzle. JENOVA is never shown as being an actual character because it is not and the story never says it is controlling him and that it is the master mind. That aside, once Hojo explains the situation it is never mentioned again and never something to doubt about this comes afterwards. The story lives of messing with you and then surprising you with the message of what actually was all along and that is a very common way to tell a story. There is no cultivating. It is wishful thinking of people who just don't want to trust the guys who know it (the storytellers) at all, meaning the story as it is is worthless for them. I am a man and I can prove it to you. Do you still show disbelief as long as I don't stand in front of you and prove it as much as possible? It will not change that I am a man. Such things are not necessary and actually the story already does prove it as much as possible.

This is leading to nowhere. And Wolf is killing us for using the thread for something else. I see it coming.

Actually, Hojo is completely wrong about Jenova. He still thinks Jenova is an Ancient.

As well as does he not think that JENOVA is an Ancient, he is just messing around with the characters often enough. Everyone knew that JENOVA was no Cetra at that point - except the main characters. In Crisis Core even Genesis knew it from the scientists and he told it Sephiroth but Sephiroth does not believe him after he read the documents and let's leave that aside because we are talking about what existed before. He totally knew Gast was right which was why he stole the information. You just took something that was never mentioned because it is not true. And the Ultimania Omega and the game itself says something completely different.

He still considers Cloud a failure despite him being the only one to achieve the "Reunion" he theorized.

No, he doesn't. He considers him a success after he realizes. Replay the Sister Ray scenario.

Heck, the Reunion theory itself is full of massive holes. It took five years to even begin, and there's absolutely no evidence to indicate that it is a natural function of Jenova (which is what Hojo theorized), as it seems to be much more a case of Sephiroth collecting his tools and setting his plan in motion once he has a pawn to manipulate. Most of the Sephiroth clones are stopped before reaching the Reunion, some killed by Jenova itself, others merely being killed by their trials.

The game basically does absolutely everything it can to discredit Hojo as a scientist at every level.

Of course it is full of holes if you ignore what's given. Again you just use the parts you want and ignore the rest, claim something to be wrong which was never said to be and perfectly shown to be the explanation in the moment of truth. This is not leading to the desired answer. The game does some things to show Hojo is fallible and letting him admit it by realizing what is actually true. That is something completely different. And I already mentioned that. Before you didn't understand but now you realize it. Hojo saw it was Sephiroth because it was initiated by him after a while because Sephiroth has JENOVA's head because he can control JENOVA's powers. All that was found out by Hojo and that is exactly what was the case. You cannot say it is something natural or something that can be done at will because it can be done both ways. The reunion is an instinct and the core gives the command. Thoser things are exactly shown in the game and in the Ultimania Omega and not what Hojo is discredited to be or anything. Realizing truth after making a mistake does not make the truth wrong and it definitely does not show incompetence. All three scientists were wrong in many things. But Hojo was the only one who found it out by personal experience - and stealing Gast's things who knew it after Iphalna told him.

And of course you, Bolivar, Mercen or anyone else returning and making the same mistake, which I have seen in multiple threads (and by pretty much everyone in all kinds of topics of life) will not change what is canon, what was ever intended and what is clearly shown. Don't get me wrong. I am far away from being infallible. However I very well take information fully when it is possible for me and not with a flashlight and that is possible in a fictional topic. And no matter how often someone comes in here and talks about ambiguity, the game saying it was Sephiroth all along is no ambiguity. So keep struggling against axioms if you want but you shouldn't.

[VeloZer0]

[And Wolf is killing us for using the thread for something else. I see it coming.

But knowing he is upset makes me feel all warm inside.

[Karifean]

This is kinda the point of this topic, but if you like thinking that the story should've gone another way, or did something differently, that's totally fine. Knock yourself out.

However, know when you are in contradiction to canon. Again, there's no problem if you stand in contradiction to canon, but - and this is important - it makes little sense arguing against it. If word of god (as in the creators) state something as fact, whether you like it or not, it's canon. And arguing its legitimacy will lead to nothing. It makes little sense to participate in discussions where other people follow the canon if you yourself deny it. (Not that this should prevent you from denying it for your own enjoyment)

If you like the ambiguity in some parts of the original game, that's good for you. But standing in discussions with people who know how far the canon knowledge extends, there's not much point in bringing that up.

But well, that's what this topic is for after all - to discuss how we WOULD'VE liked the story to go. So let's get back on topic.

Personally, I liked the Brittenham theory when I first read it. Maybe just because it presented Sephiroth as more of a tragic figure than outright villain and I like that trope. But it made just as much sense to me when I later read that Sephiroth's will overpowered Jenova, and it made Sephiroth stand as more of an intimidating villain. So I don't quite know which I'd have preferred to be real. Probably the Jenova control theory, still.

[Wolf Kanno]

He's flat coffee5.gif

He has as much depth as Ex-Death or Emperor Mateus.

Mateus didn't have a back story and X-Death hardly had one at all.

Exactly. Flat coffee5.gif

[And Wolf is killing us for using the thread for something else. I see it coming.

But knowing he is upset makes me feel all warm inside.

do_i_give_a_damn.gif

[Skyblade]

Yeah, but isn't it just someone from in game saying it? I mean, they have no way of knowing for sure either. And if memory serves me correctly it was Hojo, who I don't necessarily label as a credible source. (Or at least a trustworthy one.)

Hojo fully discovered the phenomenon of Reunion and it was 100% verified when he arrived at the crater. He himself said he was wrong first but corrected everything then. Hojo is, despite Sephiroth hating him, the scientist who fully understood the nature of JENOVA as he stole Gast's documents and found out what Gast did not know.

When a moment of enlightenment in the game itself is not credible you may not trust a single line in the entire game. Or to say it better, all answers lie in the game, as Tetsuya Nomura said.

Actually, Hojo is completely wrong about Jenova. He still thinks Jenova is an Ancient. You say he found Gast's notes but he basically ignored them all out of spite. He still considers Cloud a failure despite him being the only one to achieve the "Reunion" he theorized. Heck, the Reunion theory itself is full of massive holes. It took five years to even begin, and there's absolutely no evidence to indicate that it is a natural function of Jenova (which is what Hojo theorized), as it seems to be much more a case of Sephiroth collecting his tools and setting his plan in motion once he has a pawn to manipulate. Most of the Sephiroth clones are stopped before reaching the Reunion, some killed by Jenova itself, others merely being killed by their trials.

The game basically does absolutely everything it can to discredit Hojo as a scientist at every level.

[Bolivar]

However, know when you are in contradiction to canon. Again, there's no problem if you stand in contradiction to canon, but - and this is important - it makes little sense arguing against it. If word of god (as in the creators) state something as fact, whether you like it or not, it's canon. And arguing its legitimacy will lead to nothing. It makes little sense to participate in discussions where other people follow the canon if you yourself deny it. (Not that this should prevent you from denying it for your own enjoyment)

If you like the ambiguity in some parts of the original game, that's good for you. But standing in discussions with people who know how far the canon knowledge extends, there's not much point in bringing that up.

Unfortunately, this is not how it works when it comes to literary analysis and interpretation. A few years ago, I attended a panel discussing the works of Joseph Conrad, and the director of my University's English department flat out said, "I don't care what the author's comments are when discussing the meaning of their work." A lot of the younger students were shocked that he said this but the panelists agreed. Furthermore, creators demonstrably change their ideas about their works over the course of their lives.

Even if this wasn't the case, FFVII was primarily written by four people and portrayed by a much larger team of artists and programmers. It's disingenuous to depict any one source as definitive. But even if it was, you'd still be taking a less sophisticated approach than how literary discussion actually takes place in the real world.

If you guys haven't noticed, Sephiroth is replying to your posts by editing his earlier ones.

[Mercen-X]

Yes, there are two ways to look at a work. Analyzing it yields personal opinion, creator intent be damned. Trying to understand what has happened and will happen after the core story depends entirely upon canon as while anyone can write a continuation, only the creator's can deem those continuations to be part of the accepted continuity.

[The Man]

It's probably well known by now that FFVII isn't one of my favourite entries in the series, but some of this has to do with the fact that Square keeps messing with it and screwing it up further. The original game had a lovely amount of ambiguity that ultimately left the player uncertain of what really happened and whom to trust as a source of information. While some elements of the game's plot were cleared up by the end, large parts of it were not and it's left to the player to determine what really happened. Every time Square adds to it, with Ultimanias or sequels or prequels or whatever else, they take a bit of this ambiguity away, depriving the original game of one of its strengths and, for that matter, directly contradicting one of the themes of the original game.

My actual preference for whether Jenova or Sephiroth were in control would have been for them to leave it ambiguous, as it was in the original game. However, if forced to choose between having the game explicitly depict one or the other, I think having Jenova in control would have been marginally more interesting. I agree completely with Wolf that Sephiroth is a rather boring antagonist.

This kind of thing just makes me glad they haven't ruined FFVI with pointless sequels and other crap.

[Jiro]

We spend the whole game thinking that Sephiroth is the threat. He uses parts of JENOVA to try to stop the party. Can you imagine how brilliant a bluff it would be for JENOVA to be the mastermind, willing Sephiroth into using her in a bid to make her ambitions come true under the guise that it would help him obtain what he secretly wanted?