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Thread: We can rebuild him, make him faster, stronger...

  1. #31
    absolutely haram Recognized Member Madame Adequate's Avatar
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    I don't personally think the problems in the genre lie in the gameplay mechanics so much. I think the problems are far more on the story side of things. The big games in the genre almost all have one or both of two major things: They've got a story which feels influenced by the player (not necessarily is, but they have to feel convinced that they're making a difference), or they've got huge expansive worlds to explore. I honestly think the time for super linear stories in the FF vein has passed, and to succeed RPGs these days really need to be much more about branching paths and different choices. That's one of the reasons New Vegas is so well-regarded despite the gameplay being nothing special and the game being buggy as hell.

    I think for the genre to revive we'll need to see a flip in the attitudes among developers towards how the game should play. Rather than a single 40-hour-long adventure, a 10-hour-long game which actually diverges and can have radically different outcomes would, I suspect, be far more popular. That's not to say there's no room for the more traditional type of RPG of course, and plenty of people are still very interested in games like Bravely Default or the wide array of old-school indie RPGs on the PC.

  2. #32
    Recognized Member VeloZer0's Avatar
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    See, I think the problem isn't so much linear, as games not using their linearity to tell good stories. I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to something like FF13 if I actually felt compelled by strong storytelling and combat mechanics, but I haven't seen too many titles recently that delivered in that regard.* A more open world can compensate more for lack of these things by getting players to 'make their own fun'.

    *I don't know that historical titles were as amazing in this respect, but they had a far fewer lines of dialog for poor writers to mess up.
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  3. #33
    absolutely haram Recognized Member Madame Adequate's Avatar
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    True enough, I don't think linear can't be a success, and as you say an open world can be a disguise more than a superior alternative at times.

  4. #34

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    I think my biggest problem from what I've seen and heard regarding FFXIII and its ilk is that the story and characters aren't reasonable and relatable. It's not a well-written epic, regardless of its linearity. All the greatest JRPGs were pretty linear to some extent. Chrono Trigger being the biggest exemption I can think of

    But my favorite JRPG franchise is Shining Force, and its hard to get any more linear than they are. But I'd play them over and over and over again, because I loved the characters, I loved the stories, and I loved the world. They were all well crafted and well delivered. I don't know how or why, but a lot of companies just don't know how to do that anymore. Their worlds are questionable, their characters are completely unreasonable, idiotic and annoying, and extremely hard to relate to, if not impossible in a lot of cases. It cripples any investment you might try to create with either the characters or their story

    Bravely Default had an interesting world that was delivered to us fairly masterfully. The plot wasn't completely unreasonable, though fairly uninspired, it was extremely well done. And (I believe) above all else, the characters were ridiculously well crafted. Even the bad guys were lovable. There's probably someone in there most people can relate to, and even if not, there's someone or lots of someone people at least LIKE. They can get behind, and invest in

    This is the problem I've had with Final Fantasy since VIII. Though XII had a well crafted world, and interesting characters. I failed to get invested (sadly) because Vaan didn't disappear from the plot fast enough. And he was too ridiculous for me to stomach for too long. And Penelo was barely any better. And dear lord did I want to slap people in VIII and X. And I've heard enough to know that XIII probably doesn't fair any better, and in some respects it probably fairs even worse

    Bravely Default is not a perfect game, but it is a great example of how well received games are when enough thought and love ... and intelligence is put into crafting story and game world and characters. Entertaining game mechanics help a lot too I suppose, but I probably would have loved the game even if they were stuck with their first few jobs or stuck in an archetype

    This is what got me when I recently played Tales of Xillia. The story was interesting, the world was fun to explore, the battles were fun to play, and the characters were beyond tolerable. I actually liked 90% of them and could relate to how a lot of them felt and reacted

    I've called Japan out on their heavy reliance on melodrama rather than real drama, and the possibility that most Japanese creators might actually have trouble telling the difference between the two, or separating them from one-another. But I think their problem actually stems deeper than that, considering how frequently these unrealistic, unreasonable, unrelatable characters keep popping up in their JRPGs (and other genres and media). I mean what purpose does the trademark "mascot" character ever serve anyway? Or the hyper-active annoying girl? Or the silent brooding guy with a dark past? The plot would go on just fine without them and the audience could relate better if the characters were reasonable and well-rounded. And used things like ... logic or something

    This is why I prefered games like FFVI FFVII and Xenogears for my JRPGs. Those archetypes may have still showed up, but they were sprinkled on super lightly by comparison. And the rest of the cast and plot was generally pretty reasonable and relatable. Easier to digest and get invested in. And its super rare to find that these days. Hell it was super rare to find that back then. That's what made those games so special to me. I have high hopes for Team Xeno at Monolith Soft to do it again. Because Square sure as hell won't. And all the companies working with Atlus and NIS are too content with their niche markets to worry about it. Which is fine. It'd just be nice if someone could pick up the torch. Maybe Persona 5 will fall in there somewhere. 3 and 4 didn't have super annoying or retardedly ridiculous characters

  5. #35
    Recognized Member VeloZer0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyk View Post
    I've called Japan out on their heavy reliance on melodrama rather than real drama, and the possibility that most Japanese creators might actually have trouble telling the difference between the two, or separating them from one-another.
    I've never thought about this in all that much depth, but this certainly explains a lot.
    >>Am willing to change opinions based on data<<

  6. #36
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    I know the biggest problem for me is the over-reliance on anime art design that I find incredibly alienating. In the SNES, PS1 era RPG developers were essentially creating their own artistic genres and that's much if what I found so appealing about them. I like anime but it turns me away and I would probably try a lot more new games if the artwork didn't turn me away. It's part of why I haven't tried the Persona series (also the gameplay videos I've seen make it look like something I wouldn't be into).

  7. #37
    Depression Moon's Avatar
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    I agree a lot of JRPGs look too anime for me. Persona's not one of those though, that goes to a lot of those generic JRPGs that they don't make it over here and Hyperdimension Neptunia

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