Shin Megami Tensei

[Scotty_ffgamer]

I've been wanting to get into these games lately! I've played Person 3 and 4, and I've just started up Nocturne. I've been pretty interested in Digital Devil Saga as well. Who all is a fan of this franchise? Outside of the Persona series, which of the games are your favorites? Any of the games have a particularly good story or set of characters?

[Wolf Kanno]

*raises hand*

I love this franchise, it reminded me that RPGs used to be challenging and more about preparation and thinking outside of the box. Shin Megami Tensei Nocturne is my favorite game from the main series followed by SMTIV. I also really enjoyed Digital Devil Saga and the Raidou series of Devil Summoner titles.

If you are looking for story/character driven entries then I would recommend Digital Devil Saga and Devil Survivor, if you need something "different" I would say Raidou Kuzunohara vs. the Soulless Army. If you want something more old school and closer to the original SMT but somewhat updated, then Strange Journey wasn't too shabby either.

[black orb]

>>> I have heard great things about these games, but.. Play RPGs with japanese high-school students (I'm totally allergic to them) is something Im not able to digest..

[Wolf Kanno]

>>> I have heard great things about these games, but.. Play RPGs with japanese high-school students (I'm totally allergic to them) is something Im not able to digest..

Only Persona deals with Japanese High school, the cast of Strange Journey are all adults and the cast of DDS are soldiers though it gets a bit confusing... Hell even the main SMT games don't deal with Japanese High school as the world usually ends anywhere between 10 minutes to an hour into the game and then it's post-apocalyptic playground for you. Even though Raidou is a high school student, he spends most of the game playing demon-summoning detective in 1920s Japan and I have yet to see his school.

Even Persona doesn't completely revolve around school.

[Skyblade]

Yeah, if your objection is to the high-school thing, SMT shouldn't really give you much problems.

I enjoyed Nocturne the most. Mostly because I hate first person perspective for RPG combat. However, I felt it had an encounter rate that was a bit too high. It wasn't hard, just annoying. But I liked the negotiations and a lot of the world setup in Nocturne.

The games themselves are stellar. The characters are fantastic, and the writing is excellent. But I have some serious objections to a lot of the central tenants of the mythos and the philosophies. Not to mention that, while it represents a lot of its figures from other cultures well, it absolutely butchers those it draws from Christian lore. Philosophy and morality play a pretty significant role in the series, and I kind of drags the entire thing down for me with how much I dislike those aspects of the games.


Overall, I think Persona is a much better series.

[Wolf Kanno]

What do you feel is butchered from Christian lore? Except the obvious which is Yahweh but even he kind of gets a pass due to certain circumstances in the background of the series plot. Other than that, I feel they do a fairly decent job about them.

[Skyblade]

What do you feel is butchered from Christian lore? Except the obvious which is Yahweh but even he kind of gets a pass due to certain circumstances in the background of the series plot. Other than that, I feel they do a fairly decent job about them.

The fact that they have absolutely no understanding of even the basic principles of the faith. That they reduce the entire religion and all of the heavenly host down to essentially an army on the side of order in a battle between order and chaos. That they misrepresent the role of Yahweh, the angels, and pretty much the entire construct of the Church.

This is actually what ticks me off the most about the series, and why I really just usually quit the games partially through.

[black orb]

>>> I have heard great things about these games, but.. Play RPGs with japanese high-school students (I'm totally allergic to them) is something Im not able to digest..

Only Persona deals with Japanese High school, the cast of Strange Journey are all adults and the cast of DDS are soldiers though it gets a bit confusing... Hell even the main SMT games don't deal with Japanese High school as the world usually ends anywhere between 10 minutes to an hour into the game and then it's post-apocalyptic playground for you. Even though Raidou is a high school student, he spends most of the game playing demon-summoning detective in 1920s Japan and I have yet to see his school.

Even Persona doesn't completely revolve around school.

>>> Persona is pretty much all know about these games.. I guess im not fond of the artwork there. All the characters look too handsome and fashionable for my taste..

[Skyblade]

>>> I have heard great things about these games, but.. Play RPGs with japanese high-school students (I'm totally allergic to them) is something Im not able to digest..

Only Persona deals with Japanese High school, the cast of Strange Journey are all adults and the cast of DDS are soldiers though it gets a bit confusing... Hell even the main SMT games don't deal with Japanese High school as the world usually ends anywhere between 10 minutes to an hour into the game and then it's post-apocalyptic playground for you. Even though Raidou is a high school student, he spends most of the game playing demon-summoning detective in 1920s Japan and I have yet to see his school.

Even Persona doesn't completely revolve around school.

>>> Persona is pretty much all know about these games.. I guess im not fond of the artwork there. All the characters look too handsome and fashionable for my taste..

If you can get past the art style, it does have some absolutely fantastic writing.

But the Persona games have a very different style and setup than the rest of the Shin Megami Tensei series.

[Wolf Kanno]

Going to open a can of worms with this but let's go...

To be honest, and speaking as a former Christian myself, from an outsider's perspective, I don't feel they are off when you think about the tenants. Still Yahweh is not really evil, the game's background points out that God has been warped by something wrong in the universe and it frankly seems to be pointing towards humanity being the culprit which frankly is true to real life as well.

There is also a lot about the angels and Yahweh that has been removed from the faith over the centuries but are placed back in. I mean New Testament God is a pretty cool dude, Old Testament Yahweh on the other hand can be a dick when he wants to be and even his "chosen people" will generally attest to that. I mean it's not like The Books of Joshua, Judges, both Books of Samuel are not rife with Yahweh commanding his chosen people to wipe out every man, woman, child, and livestock that belongs to the heathen's for the sake of Yahweh creating his paradise for his chosen followers. New Testament God isn't interesting, Jewish Old Testament Yahweh on the other hand makes for a very interesting and atypical antagonist.

Granted, SMTII goes a little too far in this regard but the series is not about making religion look bad, as it about presenting people with choices by making them face the best and worst aspects of it. I mean the Law order tends to have more sympathetic characters than Chaos does. The Archangel Gabriel and Satan (not to be confused with Lucifer) are actually some of the sane people on their side. They have actually done a better job of restoring some of the heavenly host back to their place, cause figures like Satan and Metatron kind of got shortchanged by Christianity despite being more prominent back in the day.

[black orb]

If you can get past the art style, it does have some absolutely fantastic writing.

>>> Get past to THAT is not easy you know ... scaaary..

[Wolf Kanno]

I can't see anything.

It's Mara isn't it? or Arioch...

[Skyblade]

Still Yahweh is not really evil, the game's background points out that God has been warped by something wrong in the universe and it frankly seems to be pointing towards humanity being the culprit which frankly is true to real life as well.

I actually never caught this at any point. And, actually, no, that's not true in real life. The perception of God may be warped by man, but that's not the same thing.



I don't want to get too far into this, so I'll just briefly summarize. The games tend to group things into a battle between order and chaos. There are basically no good guys amongst any of the various mythological figures. They tend to be pretty firmly fixed in one camp or the other. The "true" ending (and the one most in holding with my own beliefs) is a middle path between the two. However, due to the way the factions are set up, the game represents this by man basically saying "to hell with this" to both angels and demons and kicking the butts of both to take a path they choose. It changes somewhat in some of the games (like the "true" ending of Nocturne being to become a general in charge of an army of demons to forge their own path), but that's the basic premise.

So I either get to be a complete slave to the forces of order (which is not in keeping with any incarnation of God in any section of the Bible). Or I get to strike out and fight and even kill Yahweh because I think mankind is better on its own. Or I can be a complete anarchist and lead the world to ruin that way. None of these choices appeal to me. At all.


Let's drop the religion aspect of it, though. I don't want to argue that. I'm fine with discussing the philosophy of it for now, but there's a reason I avoid EoEO, and I do not want to argue religion indefinitely here.

[black orb]

I can't see anything.

It's Mara isn't it? or Arioch...

>>> Dont know, but they look scary..

[Skyblade]

If you can get past the art style, it does have some absolutely fantastic writing.

>>> Get past to THAT is not easy you know ... scaaary..

Well, I meant getting past the art style of the Persona games. Which is far less scary, but far more high school.