What Final Fantasy 15 can learn from Game of Thrones

[Psychotic]

Final Fantasy stainlifter hahaha

Very cool video. The animation lined up with the audio perfectly. Every scene made sense and so did the points argued. Do you want to take over the reigns at SE Psychotic? Sounds like you've got a pretty good list of thoughts

Thank you, I'm glad you enjoyed it.

I disagree with the first point almost entirely. George Martin has far more characters to kill, and is working with a far grander story. What's more, his insistence on killing characters to subvert tropes or just because he can has basically prevented me from forming any attachment to any of the characters in the series, because I'm just waiting for them to be killed off.

I disagree, and I also don't see why a grander story isn't something that should be aspired to. Regardless, I can understand why you can't form attachments to them, but countless fans do. Indeed, countless Final Fantasy fans do - the proliferation of Game of Thrones signatures that occurs every March/April at EoFF is a testament to that.

If Final Fantasy starts killing characters willy-nilly, it will have the same effect. People will come to expect it, and the deaths will lack any real meaning. What the series needs, is to handle character death well. That is NOT the same thing as "nobody is safe".

Shorty offered a great rebuttal to this point. It's not a black-and-white "kill every character or kill no character" situation as you are portraying. Likewise, if people come to expect death then the expectations will often be usurped because the characters will not die. Having experienced Game of Thrones with people who have not read the books, I have witnessed first hand what happens when people expect death. They are on the edge of their seats and far more engaged - about characters they have indeed formed attachments to regardless of that expectation - and the relief felt when it did not occur was palpable. Indeed, that tension caused by the expectation is precisely what I was talking about in my video. A story that makes people feel such emotions and involvement is a good one and is something to strive for.

What's more, if there is a situation like you describe, where Noctis dies, you wouldn't "feel worried or tense". There is only tension in an element that can be changed. If Noctis is going to die, so what? Sure, it will shock you the first time it happens. After that, though, the scene will lose meaning. Because you just won't care about him. He's dead, and nothing you can do will change that.


That's not to say that you should never kill characters. Nor should you keep characters alive to serve the gameplay when, by rights of the story, they should be dead *cough*SAZH*cough*. But don't go killing characters just to make a point to the players, or to subvert tropes. It won't have as lasting of an impact.

I think you have contradicted yourself with this and the points below. The points you made about Aeris and Crono are all good ones and they are all well-written moments. Why, then, assume that something similar cannot be created for Noctis and indeed other XV characters? Indeed, you're arguing my point for me, explaining how and why death in video games can be powerful. Your point is against the manner of a death, not about the possibility of death itself which is what I'm discussing. Why assume I'm advocating "and then noctis died on the way back to his home planet lol"?

However, I will discuss this point now that you have raised it. You will note that the series I chose to compare this to has a clear underlying message behind every death and negative situation characters get into: Actions have consequences. Although Martin felt Robb Stark had to die to subvert expectation, he did not do so on a whim. It occurred because Robb did not deliver on a promise he made. Likewise, why not have the story in FF branch out into different options whereby you make choices, and your choices do impact on the survival of a character? I wholeheartedly agree about agency, and I think you have misunderstood my video if you believe I am arguing against that.

I also disagree with point number two. It's not really that jarring. In fact, I find it far more jarring when, in a game like Dragon Age, your character is coated in blood yet is welcomed into cities and towns, into shops, etcetera, with no eyebrows raised. It's a game. We don't see everything that happens. We don't see characters clean up. Just like we don't see them go to the restroom or sleep every day, or anything like that.

Again, this is a very black and white argument. The alternative to having pristine characters is not necessarily to have them coated from head to foot in blood either. I reiterate: The example I cited, Advent Children Complete, did a great job. Subtle dirt and wounds, but not overwhelming. Having the appearance characters respond to situations that the player is actively involved in is not the same as saying we should see every aspect of their daily lives either. It's not realism for realism's sake. As explained in my video it is a subtle visual indicator that we have been involved in a titanic struggle. I do not think the comparison you make to using the restroom et cetera is relevant and indeed is not something I am arguing in favour of.

Again, back to player agency. There are few things more annoying or jarring than getting wounds that aren't there. Have you ever been in a boss fight where you completely steamroll the enemy, taking them down so efficiently that you barely notice you're touched? Or, heck, where you might actually take no damage at all? And have you ever then had it followed up by a cutscene where you're panting, out of breath, and acting like you've had a hard fight? It shatters the immersion.

Given that the argument I am making is that what happens to the characters in combat should be reflected in their appearance, I do not understand why you raise this because I agree wholeheartedly. Just as a difficult experience should be reflected in wounds and exertion, likewise an easy one should not be portrayed as anything but either.

How would you recommend giving wounds to characters? By robbing control of players and inflicting injuries in cutscenes, further divorcing the player from the situation by removing their control? How would these change the characters when you're controlling them in combat? Is a character suddenly going to regain use of that leg or arm, and be fine in combat? Or will you be permanently crippling the party, either based on poor player performance, or just because you're wanting to tell your epic story?

In my video I am advocating wounds as a visual indicator rather than a gameplay element, so again I don't think you quite understood the point I was making however, I am open to discussing the possibility of it being used as such.

It is a Final Fantasy game. Wounds and limb damage can be a gameplay element just as much as being poisoned or having dark inflicted upon you. The player and character is not permanently blind forevermore because of one battle. There are magical spells and potions that can undo any of these effects and likewise I don't see why the likes of Curaga can't undo these wounds and heal them. Indeed, this gives the player control you contend is being robbed and wounds would still act as a visual indicator, the point I was making originally.

And, as you yourself point out: You would take wounds from random encounters. My gosh, man. I've fought THOUSANDS of enemies, in each and every Final Fantasy game I've played. My gosh, I would look worse than the main character from Planescape Torment if I sustained lasting visible injuries each time I was hit.

Again, I think this is a very black-and-white, all-or-nothing argument you are making. No, not every blow should cause an injury or a scar, if nothing else because the players have armour. (You can call it magical armour if you want to explain why they're not wearing it, although I think the FFX rip off Lord of the Rings The Third Age did a very good job of having character appearances altering based on armour but that is a tangential issue) I do advocate some wounds, enough to remind you that yes, this is a desperate situation and a struggle. Again, I cite Advent Children Complete. The majority of the attacks in the Loz and Yazoo inflict upon Reno and Rude do not inflict wounds, but a few do and this is enough.

Anyway, while I disagree with many of the points you raised I would like to thank you for taking the time to watch my video and type out a response to it. It is truly appreciated... although I sincerely hope it was not you that clicked the Dislike button!