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Thread: What do you want out of an RPG protagonist?

  1. #31
    Memento Mori Site Contributor Wolf Kanno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyblade View Post
    Or Montblanc, like most people, see someone confused and in trouble and just want to help them.
    Yes, yes, I just met some homeless guy spotting how this world isn't real and instead of calling the proper authorities, I'm going to call my friends up so we can help him to end the world. Even when it becomes clear the guy is right, I'm just going to go out of my way to help them knowing that doing so may blink myself out of existence. I hope my sarcasm isn't lost on you.

    Also, Marche doesn't have access to player knowledge. Everything happened while he was asleep. So what the player knows is irrelevant (and, as I pointed out, the transition scene itself is incredibly deceptive). What's more, Marche doesn't confront anyone else about the world. Ritz confronts Marche about the world, and her suspicion that it's based on their town.
    Incorrect, it is important for the player to know this because it helps us to sympathize and understand that Marche is very much in the right. Also, while Marche wasn't the first to figure it out, he does confront the various characters about how they are using Dream Ivalice as a crutch to run away from their problems and live selfishly.

    Also there is nothing deceptive about Dream Ivalice, we witness the world transform before our lives and we know that the characters unintentionally used the power to bend the world to their desires. Even Cid eventually realizes what has happened to him after he witnesses the real world again and chooses to leave Mewt cause he understands now that the world is not good for him. I think going from a world where my worst fear is getting a parking ticket or being late to work/school is a tad bit better than a world where I can be arrested for not following arbitrary rules imposed by an authoritarian government ruled by a selfish child or get badly injured and losing property cause the two local clans decided to fight over turf near my shop is kind of a big deal. It only doesn't seem like a big deal cause the magic of the book bends the peoples will and memories to fulfill the children's wishes.


    Um, we find out a ton about Isaac's background. All you have to do is actually pay attention and talk to the NPCs (and Mind Read them). You get a clear understanding of Vale, it's culture, what it values, Dora's perceptions, etcetera. It's pretty easy to understand what sort of culture/family Isaac grew up in and how that shaped him.
    It's just not up to par I'm afraid. I understand Vale and its history but not really Isaac, all you really learn about him is that he's stubborn (earth affinity joke) and he has always been an upright caring lad. That's not real characterization, that is an informed trait.

    Another game doing things better doesn't mean that this game did things bad.
    It means they didn't do it as good.

    Ok, in that case, go play Golden Sun again, and this time actually talk to the NPCs. Don't just rush off on your quest, explore Vale. Talk to the priests at the Sanctum, etcetera. You can learn a lot about how Isaac was brought up, and why he acts the way he does.

    Vale is built on a culture of protection and community. They believe their role is to guard the world from Alchemy by protecting Sol Sanctum. The theft of the Elemental Stars is the failure of their entire purpose. Isaac is charged with recovering the Stars by an entity that about 90% of them literally think is a god.

    We know that Vale has a strong sense of community and helping people out in the wake of disasters (it's literally one of the first things they show us in the game). We know that several of the young villagers want to go out and explore the world. We know that Isaac is directly cautioned about how he presents himself, since he'll be representing Vale and Psynergy to the world.

    There is a ton of characterization and backstory available.
    I am usually pretty good about talking to everyone, I just didn't feel it with this game. It is too overwhelmingly wholesome for my taste. I may give it another go cause my GF loves this series (though she would agree with me that Isaac is not as interesting as Felix) so it is not like I don't have it laying around here to check out again but I honestly didn't really like the characters or plot. It was too weak for me, but maybe I went in with too high of expectations since this is a series that people seem to love, so I may try again sometime down the road but it probably won't be anytime soon. I've got enough crap on my plate as it is gaming-wise.

  2. #32
    Skyblade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Skyblade View Post
    Or Montblanc, like most people, see someone confused and in trouble and just want to help them.
    Yes, yes, I just met some homeless guy spotting how this world isn't real and instead of calling the proper authorities, I'm going to call my friends up so we can help him to end the world. Even when it becomes clear the guy is right, I'm just going to go out of my way to help them knowing that doing so may blink myself out of existence. I hope my sarcasm isn't lost on you.
    You do realize that Ivalice would pretty much collapse if authorities were called in for every crazy person, right?

    Also, it never really becomes clear to anyone outside of the main group what happens. Heck, Babus probably gets more insight into the situation than any of the other clan members, and he still has no idea what was actually happening. To say "it became clear he was right" is a bit ridiculous when Marche basically never even brings up the subject to Montblanc.

    Also, Marche doesn't have access to player knowledge. Everything happened while he was asleep. So what the player knows is irrelevant (and, as I pointed out, the transition scene itself is incredibly deceptive). What's more, Marche doesn't confront anyone else about the world. Ritz confronts Marche about the world, and her suspicion that it's based on their town.
    Incorrect, it is important for the player to know this because it helps us to sympathize and understand that Marche is very much in the right. Also, while Marche wasn't the first to figure it out, he does confront the various characters about how they are using Dream Ivalice as a crutch to run away from their problems and live selfishly.
    It's important to the player, yes. It has absolutely no bearing on Marche's characterization. Marche cannot know how the world changed, because he did not see it. So he cannot use the knowledge of that change.

    Also there is nothing deceptive about Dream Ivalice, we witness the world transform before our lives and we know that the characters unintentionally used the power to bend the world to their desires. Even Cid eventually realizes what has happened to him after he witnesses the real world again and chooses to leave Mewt cause he understands now that the world is not good for him. I think going from a world where my worst fear is getting a parking ticket or being late to work/school is a tad bit better than a world where I can be arrested for not following arbitrary rules imposed by an authoritarian government ruled by a selfish child or get badly injured and losing property cause the two local clans decided to fight over turf near my shop is kind of a big deal. It only doesn't seem like a big deal cause the magic of the book bends the peoples will and memories to fulfill the children's wishes.
    Um, there is a lot deceptive about that transformation. For example: If the world is based off Mewt's desires, why were the other four anomalies brought in instead of being transformed? Specifically, why would Cid have been brought in when he was nowhere near the book and never read it? If the transformed clan members like Montblance retained some affinity for the real world, as you suggest, why do none of them actively recall it, when other characters do? Why do Lyle, Colin, and Guiness get brought back as monsters, when the other characters brought in retain their human identities? Why do none of the people either in Ivalice or in St. Ivalice recall the other world with the exception of the special five? If there was any residual affinity for St. Ivalice among the people of Ivalice, why do events which occur as a result of the blending of the worlds (specifically, the snow in Lutia) register as worthy of note?

    I could go on. In fact, I already did, and I know you've read my essays. I'm starting to wonder if you are really Wolf Kanno...

    Ok, in that case, go play Golden Sun again, and this time actually talk to the NPCs. Don't just rush off on your quest, explore Vale. Talk to the priests at the Sanctum, etcetera. You can learn a lot about how Isaac was brought up, and why he acts the way he does.

    Vale is built on a culture of protection and community. They believe their role is to guard the world from Alchemy by protecting Sol Sanctum. The theft of the Elemental Stars is the failure of their entire purpose. Isaac is charged with recovering the Stars by an entity that about 90% of them literally think is a god.

    We know that Vale has a strong sense of community and helping people out in the wake of disasters (it's literally one of the first things they show us in the game). We know that several of the young villagers want to go out and explore the world. We know that Isaac is directly cautioned about how he presents himself, since he'll be representing Vale and Psynergy to the world.

    There is a ton of characterization and backstory available.
    I am usually pretty good about talking to everyone, I just didn't feel it with this game. It is too overwhelmingly wholesome for my taste. I may give it another go cause my GF loves this series (though she would agree with me that Isaac is not as interesting as Felix) so it is not like I don't have it laying around here to check out again but I honestly didn't really like the characters or plot. It was too weak for me, but maybe I went in with too high of expectations since this is a series that people seem to love, so I may try again sometime down the road but it probably won't be anytime soon. I've got enough crap on my plate as it is gaming-wise.
    Really? It's easy enough to explain most of Isaac's actions. Can you explain even half of Felix's? Why does he go through the quests at the Rocks? He literally does it just for the heck of it, with no knowledge of what Psynergy he'll get out of them or how it will help. Why does he go after the Great Gabomba's magic? Again, no real reason. Felix is apparently a completely aimless wanderer who has no set priorities, to the point that the party literally forgets about their primary adventure at one point ("oh, right, the Lighthouses!").

    But, yeah, whatever. Play it again if you want. I really don't care. I find Isaac more interesting, and more relatable, and I found the nature of the characterization a pleasant change from the standard. Let's move on.
    My friend Delzethin is currently running a GoFundMe account to pay for some extended medical troubles he's had. He's had chronic issues and lifetime troubles that have really crippled his career opportunities, and he's trying to get enough funding to get back to a stable medical situation. If you like his content, please support his GoFundMe, or even just contribute to his Patreon.

    He can really use a hand with this, and any support you can offer is appreciated.

  3. #33
    Memento Mori Site Contributor Wolf Kanno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyblade View Post

    You do realize that Ivalice would pretty much collapse if authorities were called in for every crazy person, right?
    That right there kind of shows why Dream Ivalice is false. It could never function as a proper society and only does so becuase its run by the will of a handful of children.

    Also, it never really becomes clear to anyone outside of the main group what happens. Heck, Babus probably gets more insight into the situation than any of the other clan members, and he still has no idea what was actually happening. To say "it became clear he was right" is a bit ridiculous when Marche basically never even brings up the subject to Montblanc

    It's important to the player, yes. It has absolutely no bearing on Marche's characterization. Marche cannot know how the world changed, because he did not see it. So he cannot use the knowledge of that change.
    .
    It still doesn't change the fact that the revelations about the false reality are changing people to see Marche's point of view. Marche does explain the first time he meets Montblanc that he only knows Ivalice and its races through a video game. Later after the mission you meet Ritz, Montblanc suddenly knows that Marche is from another world, and seeing how Ritz is the one who figures out this Ivalice took over the real world, stating that they were still in St. Ivalice that was transformed into Dream Ivalice, it seems to me that Marche does actually find out the truth that the player has pre-knowledge of. So I am going to have to disagree.

    Um, there is a lot deceptive about that transformation. For example: If the world is based off Mewt's desires, why were the other four anomalies brought in instead of being transformed? Specifically, why would Cid have been brought in when he was nowhere near the book and never read it? If the transformed clan members like Montblance retained some affinity for the real world, as you suggest, why do none of them actively recall it, when other characters do? Why do Lyle, Colin, and Guiness get brought back as monsters, when the other characters brought in retain their human identities? Why do none of the people either in Ivalice or in St. Ivalice recall the other world with the exception of the special five? If there was any residual affinity for St. Ivalice among the people of Ivalice, why do events which occur as a result of the blending of the worlds (specifically, the snow in Lutia) register as worthy of note?
    Cid is there because him being the most respected figure in Ivalice is Mewt's desire and as Marche suggests when he confronts him about the illusion world, Cid wanted this as well. All the real people in Dream Ivalice wanted to be there which is why the book brought them. There may have been more but the scope of the game wasn't going to bother with it or it is more likely that Cid gets a pass because Mewt needed him specifically instead of just dreaming up some alternate father who wasn't Cid. The dream world fulfills all the kids desire so I don't feel it is Mewt alone who created the world it is just his connection to the book that gives him more power over it than the others.

    As for others not realizing the world it is simply to keep up the illusion for the kids desire. The kids retain their memories because they created the world. Only Mewt forgets cause the real world is too painful for him and Cid forgets because it would run counter to Mewt's desire. The other three couldn't really enjoy what they got if they didn't have knowledge of what they had gained and if so this wouldn't have been a proper Lotus Eater Machine Trope if they were all mind wiped and thus there wouldn't be a plot. The rest of the world doesn't remember because there is no point in them knowing. Of course the limited shout outs to FFTA found in FFTA2 kind of reveal that Montblanc does remember Marche as he will call out his name if K.O. which may suggest that Dream Ivalice pulled in the real Ivalice and simply super imposed itself on St. Ivalice or vice versa. What this theory means is that the people of Ivalice may vague recollect the world isn't quite right because they know it is different from their own real world of True Ivalice. The bottomline is that in order to keep the Dream World alive the rest of the world must dream. We don't know if the people of St. Ivalice remember what happened. Many of them may have thought it was a dream, it's not like time worked straight seeing how there was no panic from losing several weeks or possibly years of time for the whole story to pan out. To them, Ivalice happened in a night.

    I could go on. In fact, I already did, and I know you've read my essays. I'm starting to wonder if you are really Wolf Kanno...
    Your theory became debunked the moment FFTA got connected to the actual Ivalice timeline instead of being a stand alone game. There are just too many inconsistencies now to rectify this.

    Really? It's easy enough to explain most of Isaac's actions. Can you explain even half of Felix's? Why does he go through the quests at the Rocks? He literally does it just for the heck of it, with no knowledge of what Psynergy he'll get out of them or how it will help. Why does he go after the Great Gabomba's magic? Again, no real reason. Felix is apparently a completely aimless wanderer who has no set priorities, to the point that the party literally forgets about their primary adventure at one point ("oh, right, the Lighthouses!").

    But, yeah, whatever. Play it again if you want. I really don't care. I find Isaac more interesting, and more relatable, and I found the nature of the characterization a pleasant change from the standard. Let's move on.
    We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this. For me, the cast and plot were the weakest part of the games.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno View Post
    I could go on. In fact, I already did, and I know you've read my essays. I'm starting to wonder if you are really Wolf Kanno...
    Your theory became debunked the moment FFTA got connected to the actual Ivalice timeline instead of being a stand alone game. There are just too many inconsistencies now to rectify this.
    There's actually way too many inconsistencies to accept things the way the games set them up, though. The connections just don't work. There are too many inconsistencies between FFTA's world and that of the rest of the Ivalice series. It's self contradictory in so many spots it's kind of ridiculous.
    My friend Delzethin is currently running a GoFundMe account to pay for some extended medical troubles he's had. He's had chronic issues and lifetime troubles that have really crippled his career opportunities, and he's trying to get enough funding to get back to a stable medical situation. If you like his content, please support his GoFundMe, or even just contribute to his Patreon.

    He can really use a hand with this, and any support you can offer is appreciated.

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