Proving my existence?

[Silent Warrior]

So... I was just watching a Let's Play of Persona 3 FES (... BECAUSE - and bloody hellfire, that game is LONG) and something just started bugging me. In so many Japanese games, probably a ton of animes as well, people will at some point start talking about 'proof of my existence', like it's the most significant thing in the world. What... the mustardy trout is all that about?

I think I spotted this in some .hack-game or other, Star Ocean 4 (oh, the pain), Tales of Xillia, Xenosaga, obviously Persona 3, possibly FF8 (Seifer on Disc 1) and 13 ('S me FOCUS!)... Probably forgot a couple of hundred games there, but meh.

[Lone Wolf Leonhart]

Vivi_Ornitier_art.jpg

[Yellow_Magic]

You mention Star Ocean 4...the third game in the series showcases my favourite idea of existence that I ever-so-slightly believe. It's no nonsensical yet it makes more sense than most religions to me.

[Wolf Kanno]

This is largely a difference in culture. Things like Zhuangzi's famous butterfly dream (which is one of the basis for the Persona series actually) combined with the philosophical teachings of Buddhism and Taoism make this a bit of popular topic as the concept of reality isn't thought of in the materialistic sense like in most Western philosophy. We have Descartes "I think, therefore I am" which gets used a lot in fictional works to make us question reality but most people miss the point that Descartes Cartesian Principle is about proving reality as being a materialistic concept.

Zhuangzi on the other hand, asks the question of what do we know is real, maybe we are dreaming? Buddhism itself tries to explain that the dualistic nature of the concept of self (Anatta) which is a tricky concept to explain cause it basically rejects the theistic notion of an eternal self like a soul, but also denies the idea atheistic notion that our self is a transient existence that ceases to be upon death. In essence people need to understand that "I" doesn't exist but it doesn't mean that we are illusionary, just simply that our concept of self is false. So yeah... the world of matter and motion is a bit more subjective in Eastern philosophy and thus a question of proof of existence has a bit more meaning over there than over here.

[Christmas]

[Silent Warrior]

Wolf Kanno: Um... Wow. I can't say that I understood every point in the story, but that seems to explain absolutely everything I ever wondered about with regards to Persona 3 FES (and wherever the smurf else butterflies make an appearance) - except for the question I was hoping to find an answer to.

I mean, why do characters even feel they need to prove their existence? There's that dream perspective, true, but why all the drama? Why do you absolutely have to have this proof before the final boss fight is even on the table?

[Wolf Kanno]

I would need to know specifics to answer at this point cause there really is no general answer to why characters feel this way beyond it being a popular trope in Japanese games.

[Silent Warrior]

Hm... Maybe... See, what I don't understand is why it's always presented in a way that makes a huge part of the drama revolve around this 'proof'. That taoism story should serve as a factual explanation, if I ever understand it completely, the thinking behind it and such, but it doesn't tell me why the whole idea is so very important.

[Wolf Kanno]

I feel it has more to do with validation of your purpose in life. Maybe this is just me giving it a western spin, but I always saw it more as validating ones existence, like knowing that your existence has some tangible or intangible meaning to it. For things like Pharos and Aigis though, it is about rectifying their non-human existence in a human setting. I mean if you desire to live like a human but don't understand it cause you are not a human, then how would you go about that? Is it simply biology or is it more about the mind/soul principle? I mean Japan loves Asimov's whole "What is the worth of a non-human" trope so that is also why it pops up a lot.

[Silent Warrior]

Ergh... Validation of your purpose in life, that's another concept I just don't understand why people bother brooding over. I think I get it now, though. Within the limits of my comprehension.

[Wolf Kanno]

Well I hope this has been enlightening for you.

[The Space Pope]

None of you exist, you're all just figments of my imagination.

[Mirage]

So... I was just watching a Let's Play of Persona 3 FES (... BECAUSE - and bloody hellfire, that game is LONG) and something just started bugging me. In so many Japanese games, probably a ton of animes as well, people will at some point start talking about 'proof of my existence', like it's the most significant thing in the world. What... the mustardy trout is all that about?

I think I spotted this in some .hack-game or other, Star Ocean 4 (oh, the pain), Tales of Xillia, Xenosaga, obviously Persona 3, possibly FF8 (Seifer on Disc 1) and 13 ('S me FOCUS!)... Probably forgot a couple of hundred games there, but meh.

you sure it was in SO4 they went all existential? i'm pretty sure that's 3

[Alive-Cat]

If I'm ever in doubt that I exist, I buy several large bags of pistachio nuts and eat them all until I feel sick. Sometimes I am sick. But I sure exist

[Yamaneko]

Cogito ergo yam.