Hard games vs. easy games

[Dr Unne]

This is why hard games are fun:

enjoyment-with-labels.png

Here's how hard games work.:

You found a new game, you started playing it, and it's awesome! (A-B)
...oh, a hard part. You ran into a brick wall. You're stuck. It sucks. You aren't enjoying this at all. (C)
But wait, it turns out you were just bad at the game, because it's new to you. You stopped banging randomly on the controller, took a deep breath, gave it some thought, put in some practice, got better, and beat that hard part. This is awesome! (D)
...oh, another hard part. You thought you were good, but you were not. (E)
But you didn't give up. You practiced more, and you DESTROYED that hard part. You're feeling good about yourself! (F)
The next time a hard part shows up, you don't plunge back into despair. You know you can do it, so you work at it. And yay you beat the game! (G)
And now that hard game has replay value, because it's a hard thing that you're good at. You can keep playing this and enjoy exercising this new skill that you acquired through hard work. (H-I)

Here's how easy games work:

You found a new game, you started playing it, and it's awesome! (A-B)
Oh, a kind-of-hard part. ...well, it wasn't that hard. Enjoyment is tapering off. (C)
...and enjoyment continues to taper off. It's lots more of the same. It turns out all this game requires to win is time investment. (D-F)
You beat the game! You got a little bump of enjoyment out of that. (G)
And now you're done with it. You feel happy, and also happy that you got it over with. And you plan to never touch this game again. (H-I)

For many people, when you find a hard game, I imagine you go A-B-C-quit. You're missing out on a lot of fun if you do. The harder the challenge, the better you feel once you beat it. I remember when I first beat BIT.TRIP Runner, I was happy for days afterward. I felt proud at having accomplished something. Something that in the grand scheme of things is just a silly video game, yes, but still proud.

Sure there are other ways to enjoy games: story, art, music, relaxation etc. But this is how you enjoy hard games. Hard games can have the story, art, music, etc. AND give you a feeling of accomplishment. I highly recommend giving it a try if you never have. Grab a popular-but-very-hard game, or grab a game you thought was great but gave up on because of difficulty, and practice until you scale that cliff and get good at it, and see how you feel after that.

[Pumpkin]

I understand what you're saying but I just don't think it works like that for me personally. I've completed both easy and hard games and this is how hard games went for me:

Wow what a fun game!
Yeah I really like this!
Oh a hard part. I'll keep trying
Okay this is really frustrating, let's spend a few days preparing, grinding, getting equipment, etc
Okay this is still hard but I can get through
Okay I got through that hard part. Ugh. There's going to be an even harder part coming up isn't there?
Oh this is fun
Ah poo I'm probably getting to another hard boss soon. Oh man not this again.
Okay got through that one too. Ugh I hate these boss fights.
Oh yay this is a fun part.
Oh not another boss fight please please please
It's another boss fight. Ughhh I'll do it tomorrow
I don't want to do it today, I'll do it tomorrow
I guess I have to now to see what happens.
*fast forward*
Okay that was fun but I don't think I'll play again. It was just too much work

easy games:
Oh this is fun!
Oh yay I'm liking this!
Oh a boss fight. Oh that wasn't so bad!
I can't wait to see what happens next, etc etc
fast forward
Wow that was fun, I'll probably play that again!

I dunno, just personal taste I guess. Different things work for different people

[Vyk]

I'm somewhere in between. I really enjoy a good challenge, as long as it's skill based, and not moon logic

But I can't stand a game that's nothing but challenge. Dark Souls could have been SO much better if there were more of a world to explore and people to talk to. But it's just a bleak lifeless death trap that seems like it's just a gimmick for sadists. There's nothing to invest in. I played it for a few weeks. Got over the challenges. Learned how enemies work. And then got bored. There was nothing more to the game

So while I understand challenge ads enjoyment due to a sense of accomplishment, I don't think that can carry an experience. Not for me anyway. I hate easy games, but I'd much rather stuff my pride and put a game on easy and enjoy the story, than slog through a grind for no reward other than a hollow sense of achievement overcoming a game's ridiculous obstacle with no other reward than itself. A good story rewards by investment. Fun gameplay rewards by entertainment

I rarely replay games anyway, and when I do it's because they had some transcending factor that had nothing to do with difficulty. Had I ever beat Dark Souls I know I would have never played it again. As it stands, I have no interest in finishing it. Or any of the Ninja Gaiden games. Or the harder DMC games. Or anything like that. They're fairly hollow outside of the challenge

Taking a recent example of a game I played, Tales of Xillia, which is easy as hell. And also fun as hell. And I would love to replay it again before the sequel comes out. No challenge. Just super fun gameplay. Entertaining characters. A worthwhile world to explore again. And a halfway decent story

Around the same time, I was playing Dark Souls (just a couple months ago)

[Skyblade]

That only holds true if the only enjoyment you get out of a game is the challenge or combat mechanics.

If you actually enjoy the stories, characters, world building, etcetera, the curve becomes very different.

Not everyone plays games for challenge. Not everyone plays them for combat. Not everyone likes bashing their head against a wall for eight hours to progress.

/thread

[Spuuky]

That's one of the reasons that MOBAs are the best games.

[Vyk]

Good example. It's probably one of the reasons I have this irrational hatred that MOBAs even exist. I feel like they're the retarded cousins of MMOs in general. But I have nothing against people who enjoy them. They just cause a weird psychological reaction to me. Probably due to my dislike of how a good portion of the industry thinks online multiplayer is the best and only part of video gaming worth throwing money at

I also have a hard time justifying games that have no hook for investment to me. Character development and stories and stuff invest me. So I fully admit that they're the type of game that I just don't get

[Uchu]

I like a challenge, but hate cheapness. I like to feel that it was a mistake I made or not knowing something that is resulting in the game being hard, and working it out will benefit me. However, all too often in games devs just take the quick route and make the game feel cheap, for example in shooters, enemies turning into bullet sponges, having pin point accuracy etc. That does not hold my attention and I quickly move on. Of course this usually refers to playing games on more higher difficulties.

On the other hand, sometimes I just want to have fun with the story and so games which are just taking too long because of a ridiculous boss battle etc. can sometimes ruin my enjoyment.

[Pheesh]

If a game is good, who cares how hard or easy it is?

[Ergroilnin]

I don't really care that much about the difficulty of game as long as I like it.

If it's easy game, I just play it laid back and enjoy myself and if I actually want to make it harder, I start doing self imposed challenges, that make the game harder.

If it's hard game, I like beating the hard parts on my own and it feels like an accomplishment but if it's just too hard, unforgivingly raging than it may start overpowering the story and elements I like about it and it can change to frustrating experience.

[Ayen]

No, I just spew profanities at the screen and want to murder everything in my path. When I'm really mad I'll toss the disc across the room, smash the case, bang on the case, throw the controller, put the case away, slam the drawer shut, and switch to a game I actually enjoy. I don't feel better after I make it through a challenging part, I just get over it. I'm more likely to replay a game that doesn't have a rage inducing moment.

[metagloria]

I'd much rather play a fun, easy game than a challenging, frustrating game. (Of course, I grew up with Game Genie, so, yeah.) My upper limit for difficulty is the Zelda series; but to be fair, there are few feelings as rapturous as figuring out how to beat a Zelda puzzle on your own.

[Del Murder]

That only holds true if the only enjoyment you get out of a game is the challenge or combat mechanics.

If you actually enjoy the stories, characters, world building, etcetera, the curve becomes very different.

Not everyone plays games for challenge. Not everyone plays them for combat. Not everyone likes bashing their head against a wall for eight hours to progress.

/thread

Yeah I agree. I appreciate a challenge but my work and home life already challenges me. I don't need it in my escape from that (games). I don't want my games to be a stroll through the park but I'd sacrifice challenge for engaging story, characters, and gameplay any day.

I think the thing I like more than challenging gameplay is complex gameplay. I don't like when it's too simple and there's not a lot to do. It doesn't necessarily need to be hard (because a simple game, like Flappy Bird, can be very hard), but please give me plenty to occupy my mind.

Going through the same challenge over and over trying to figure out how to complete it is just not fun. Whether that be a particular battle, level, or puzzle. Sure, beating it after a long while gives a sense of euphoria but it is short-lasting, and more often than not, makes me wonder if all that time was worth it. Instead, give me plenty of tools to beat the challenge in my own way. That way I am engaged and pleased with my own ingenuity but not frustrated with having to repeat the same thing over and over, doing incrementally better each time, because I am constantly making progress and moving the game along.

That's why I have no interest in the Dark Souls games.

[Psychotic]

I agree with Skyblade and Del. I'm not looking to spend hours bashing my head up against a brick wall until the wall eventually crumbles. I don't quit as the OP suggests, though perhaps I should. The euphoria of winning is great, but it doesn't outweigh the frustration I've felt over the past hour or two I've spent having my trout pushed in by a broken boss like the Locust Queen at the end of Gears 3. I come away feeling unsatisfied overall, not accomplished.

Trial and error is fun if implemented correctly. When the error is punishable by having to restart a lengthy sequence again then no, I don't think that's the way to go about it when designing a game.

A perfect game difficulty to me is having winning on the first attempt, but having a really tense back-and-forth battle (just as an example) and getting by via the skin of my teeth, one tiny piece of health left, I am a God. On a replay of the game, perhaps I can get through the same area unscathed by surgically eliminating the enemies one by one because my own skills and knowledge of the game are at such a level where that feat is capable.

[Dr Unne]

for example in shooters, enemies turning into bullet sponges, having pin point accuracy etc.

That's not the kind of hard that's fun. I could make a game that says "Press space bar a million times and you win", and it's hard, but it's also mindless, repetitive, and boring. The good kind of hard is something that requires skill: timing, reflexes, planning, knowledge, teamwork, problem solving, maybe a little luck.

If a game requires you to watch a 10 minute unskippable cutscene before a boss fight that you keep dying on or something like that, that's just bad game design. Good games let you get back into things quickly.

If you're throwing yourself at a problem for hours without making any progress at all, maybe the game is unfair and it sucks. Or maybe you're doing something very wrong and you should stop and consider if you should be doing something else. Or maybe you're trying something reeeeeeally challenging, but I don't know of any games that require 8 hours of kamikaze attacks to progress.

There's no wrong way to enjoy a game, and if someone doesn't like hard games, that's cool. Just trying to give a different perspective and maybe get some people to try something new.

[chionos]

I enjoy difficult games. I like being challenged. Sometimes I have a hard time understanding why not everyone likes being challenged. It's especially frustrating for me when I'm rooting for someone and then they give up. So I'm trying harder for them than they are willing to try for themselves. I say all this knowing that I am the one in the wrong and I shouldn't expect other people to feel the same way as I do about being challenged this way by games. I do think that a person shouldn't give up immediately, but I realize there comes a point when it really just isn't fun anymore. I think, for people like me, that point is either non-existent or so far off it might as well be, and that's great for us/me, but it isn't/can't be/shouldn't be that way for everyone else. Especially when we're talking about entertainment. The point here is (primarily!) fun. So if it's not fun, it's not fun, plain and simple. You can't force people to have fun (however much I wish I could!).