What if FF as a series ended?

[chionos]

The thing is, there never was a bad FF till FFXIII. There were games that weren't liked as much. But the games were all good at something. I didn't/don't like FFVIII as much as any of the other games but I got that game the second it came out and played the trout out of it till I beat it, and have replayed it since then. I can't even get through the FFXIII series. I can't. It bores me to tears. It's supposed to be beautiful. It's not. It's flashy. It's high-def. And it's boring and bland and pointless. It has a pretense of beauty without the substance.

Think about FFXIII's place in the gaming landscape. Every single thing FFXIII does, some other contemporary game does better. If you took a FF virgin, and gave them FFXIII to play as their first FF, they'd probably not finish it in the first place, and whether they did or not, it would not convince them to play the rest of the series--quite the contrary--and afterward they'd just want to play some other game to get the taste of FFXIII out of their mouth. There are too many great games out there for anyone other than diehards to waste their time on a subpar game.

I'm a diehard fan. I've been a square fan longer than most. (I'm not a curmudgeon, either). I always had faith in SE. Until FFXIII. Until they stopped putting out Final Fantasies in a timely manner. Until they got sucked into the mobile market. Until they started buying other franchises and throwing money into those. Until they started making movies about games instead of just making games. Until they started making unnecessary sequels to the games that never needed a sequel. Until they forgot how to tell a mother.smurfing.story. Until they forgot what fantasy means. What it meant to the fans. What it meant to them as artists.

I'm not saying I want Final Fantasy to end. I don't. At all. I want it to get better. I want them to fix what's gone wrong. The problem is, from a practical standpoint, I just don't think they're going to. I don't know that they can. And I hate to see suffering. Square is Old Yeller.

The sad thing is I'm going to gripe and bitch and complain, and I'll still buy FFXV. And FFXVI if it ever happens. Because I'm a fan, and I'm loyal. My Cincinnati Reds suck ass this year in baseball. But I cheer them on every night, even while hating on them with other Cinci fans. I think that's my smurfing right as a long time supporter. I've given them a ton of money (FFXI alone=close to $2000), and until now I got games in the spectrum from good to great. I want all the games to be great. Some of them are just good, though, and I accept that. But now I'm waiting and waiting and waiting and then I throw money at them and they give me the steaming pile of trout that is FFXIII. I don't give a damn if I'm being subjective. I'm a fan, and they let me down. And the thing about subjectivity...when a bunch of people share the same opinion, things begin to skew toward objective truth. If the majority of people think something is true, they're either
A. Onto something.
B. Brainwashed
C. Mass-hallucinating
D. Sheep

I'm guessing, Bolivar, you'd say that in this case the answer is D. We're just sheep hating on Square because it's a popular thing to do right now, etc.

Thing is, I'm not a sheep. I've played FFs that even a lot of hardcores never touched (namely FFXI). I liked FFXII despite the many dissenting opinions against it. If I'm a sheep about anything, it's in my loyalty to Square.

This isn't a fanbase turning on the developers because they're whiny and butthurt, or because they're impatient and venting, or because everybody else is doing it. This is a fanbase--that, consequently, MADE THE COMPANY WHAT IT IS TODAY by supporting it financially--calling out said company on its ineptness. This is a fanbase who apparently care more about the integrity of the series than its developers do. Perhaps "integrity of the series" sounds a bit melodramatic, but I think it's poignant. Whatever else you want to say about FFXIII's qualities or flaws, I don't think anyone would try to argue that it's a piece of art. Other Final Fantasies were. I want that back.

[Pumpkin]

The main issue I have with SE lately is how long it takes to get the main numbered entries out. I don't actually have a problem with the games themselves. I don't think XIII was a bad game. I think it was a bad Final Fantasy game, because the series has produces some games that I fell in love with, and XIII didn't do that, but I don't think it was a bad game.

I've finished it more than once. There are so many games I've tried and turned off after a few hours. Or games that I played about halfway through and gave up because it was such a chore and I didn't like it. FFXIII meanwhile I have played and finished more than once. Heck sometimes I'm even in the mood for the paradigm system. That's not a bad game.

And even then, let's say I didn't like it at all. Well, I liked XII. And X. And X-2. And IX. And VIII. Am I really going to give up on the series that has made so many games that I absolutely adore because they made one whole game I don't like? No. I'm going to give XV a try. I'm excited about it! If I don't like XV? I'll give XVI a try. If I don't like that one, then I might think a little harder about buying the next one.

But yeah, personally, XIII is on the same wavelength as VII. Good game, bad FF game. Like I said, the main thing for me is having to wait foreeever for XV. I do find that pretty frustrating.

[Bright Shield]

I wouldn't bat an eye. For me they haven't made a game that went beyond moderately enjoyable since FF9, and by now I have kind of lost faith that the next one is going to be one I really enjoy.

Exactly. IX was the last great FF game if you ask me. After that game Square went down hill at a disturbing rated...

[Loony BoB]

The thing is, there never was a bad FF till FFXIII. There were games that weren't liked as much.

Oh man, dude, are you seeing what you're writing? xD I think there are a number of FFs that are worse than FFXIII. I know quite a bunch of people that will agree with me on this. You can't say there was never a bad FF til FFXIII. It just happened that for you, FFXIII is bad. Don't act as if there is some universal dislike for FFXIII because there really isn't.

Pretty much everything in your post I can argue against with an example of a fan who thinks the opposite of you. I have seen FF virgins play the game as their first FF and enjoy it. I know people who think it's a good game, I know people who think other FFs are bad games, I know other FF games have similar if not worse reviews/ratings. SE did the things that you say made you lose faith in games before FFXIII was released, yet you say you always had faith in SE until FFXIII.

Gonna have to quote myself from some way back...

Remember when FFVIII got lambasted by everyone and their uncle for being rubbish? Remember when FFX got the same treatment (by me, too, no less)? XII got a lot of criticism, too. Even FFVI fans are quick to lambast FFVII when given the opportunity. Modern gamers look back at games like FFII and FFIII with disbelief that they could be seen as good games.

Final Fantasy is arguably never outdone when it comes to reinventing itself. Square, Squaresoft, Square Enix... they innovate in every Final Fantasy game they create. It's always something new, it's never the same.

Gamers who enjoy one Final Fantasy game might not enjoy another Final Fantasy game. We have so many previous Final Fantasy games that at the time of FFXIII's release, you had fans of twelve very different games with different stories, different characters, different leveling systems, different battle systems, different minigames, different worlds. At the time of FFXIII's release, more than ever, the fans of these very different games were able to communicate with each other online. The world is huge, now. Everyone has their opinions. When FFXIII was released, the people all were hoping for a game more like the one they enjoyed most from the previous series.

What they got was Final Fantasy XIII. Like it or not, it was a different game. It had a different story, different characters, a different leveling system, a different battle system, different (if few) minigames, different worlds. Those who wanted FFVII got FFXIII. Those who wanted FFVI got FFXIII. Those who wanted FFX got FFXIII. It was a new game, and it has divided opinion just like the Final Fantasy games before it (VIII, X, XII, etc) - only now, more than ever, there are enough people online who could get together and rant about how it wasn't the game they wanted, and downgrade the rating to fit their rage at such an occurance. Final Fantasy XIII still got a decent rating compared to many games, though. Because it picked up new fans - FFXIII fans - along with those fans of previous FF's that were happy enough to see the game for what it was rather than for which previous FF it was not.

In the end, Square Enix released a Final Fantasy game.

With FFXIV, they did the same, but they buggered it up because it was buggy and laggy as hell. These are things that are actually inexcusable - FFXIII had no bugs whatosever that I've known about.

Still, Square Enix - in the case of both games - innovated. They tried new things. Success or failure, they did what Call of Duty, Uncharted, Far Cry, Starcraft and others did not. They didn't take what they knew already worked in previous games and create more of the same. They made something new. They started from scratch and worked their way up, even creating a new engine for both games. Like it or not, Square Enix will do what very few other games in this industry do and try to shake things up.

People criticise Square Enix, but these same people also criticise the industry for a lack of innovation. Perhaps they need to consider exactly what they want out of the industry. More of the same, or something new? If you want more of the same, it's out there in bulk. If you want something new in an AAA title, you have to look to the few developers out there that have the money and the balls to create such a thing. Those developers include Square Enix.

Do I trust Square Enix? Like Spooniest quite rightly pointed out, I don't have to trust them, it's not about trust. If they make a game I don't like, it doesn't mean I'm going to not trust them. I mean, if one of you lot were to like a movie I thought was crap, that doesn't mean I'm going to think that all movies you like are crap. Likewise, if you like a movie I think is amazing, I'll bet that there is a movie out there that you like that I don't. These things happen. It's a matter of opinion.

Again, this fuss would not have been as massive if there was another game coming out in a year or so, and Final Fantasy is not a series that will do what other series do: Give you the same old trout with improved graphics, over and over again. Final Fantasy is a series where you should expect something different each time, and FFXIII gave us something different.

As for FFXV... and I'm not saying it will be crap, but I am saying that you should start playing the game with a different perspective for better potential enjoyment.

[Spooniest]

AHHHHHHH Reams of text! Reams and reams and reams of it!

*gets dizzy*

Ok, now that I've recovered, I'd definitely have to say that all good things come to an end, and Final Fantasy is no exception. Think of the game they would produce for it's grand finale!

I can't really think right now myself, but you think of it, for me, and get back to me, ok?

[Bolivar]

If you want to seriously sit here and dissect every FF entry with me so we can do a compare and contrast then by all means place your opening argument and let's get this show on the road

Final Fantasy XIII is a better video game than FFVI.

LOL, unfortunately, this just isn't the time or place (I'm also on my phone). All I'm saying is that while it wasn't life changing, I enjoyed XIII - it was pretty to look at, fun to play, and I thoroughly enjoyed the music and character chemistry. How can I call it anything but hyperbole when you start lecturing about internal Square politics, development hell, "push to 11" mandates and Vincent/Lucretia's abusive relationship? What does any of that have to do with XIII having fun combat and vibrant locations?

Chionos, if you really think FFXIII was a steaming pile of trout, then clearly you haven't been through the NES and 16-bit era where 1 in 8 games was literally unplayable yet somehow got through QA. There are vast logical chasms between a bad game and one that didn't do anything for you personally. If you really wanna go play FFII on the NES, be my guest, bro. Just don't blame me for calling certain vocal enclaves of the fanbase silly when they exaggerate their over-generalized complaints about FFXIII.

It wasn't a life changing game, it was a good game with a lot of great things going for it but I agree with you that I want that extra level of bliss that games like FFIX gave us. I guess I just don't qualify that as an existential crisis because a) that would be overly dramatic and b) I understand the difficulties Square, and Japan for that matter, have gone through.

[chionos]

You can't say there was never a bad FF til FFXIII. It just happened that for you, FFXIII is bad.

Can too: There never was a bad FF till FFXIII.

Don't act as if there is some universal dislike for FFXIII because there really isn't.

Didn't say (or imply) it was universal. It's more than just me though. More than any other game in the history of Final Fantasy.

I have seen FF virgins play the game as their first FF and enjoy it. I know people who think it's a good game, I know people who think other FFs are bad games, I know other FF games have similar if not worse reviews/ratings. SE did the things that you say made you lose faith in games before FFXIII was released, yet you say you always had faith in SE until FFXIII.

I've only seen the opposite. From my experience with real life people who have played the game, FFXIII is basically Square's version of "The Phantom Menace." That's a mix of new players and longtime Square fans, longtime Final Fantasy fans.

Gonna have to quote myself from some way back...

Remember when FFVIII got lambasted by everyone and their uncle for being rubbish? Remember when FFX got the same treatment (by me, too, no less)? XII got a lot of criticism, too. Even FFVI fans are quick to lambast FFVII when given the opportunity. Modern gamers look back at games like FFII and FFIII with disbelief that they could be seen as good games.

I'm a modern gamer, and I don't. I have perspective. I don't think anyone who defends FFXIII could possibly have the correct perspective. FFXIII has better graphics than FFII, so it's a better game, yeah? Perspective, people.

Also, graphics don't mean trout if you don't care about what you're looking at. Real life has even better graphics, but I want to play a game I can enjoy, I want to see things worth looking at, otherwise I'll just check out the HD graphics of the real world.

Every Final Fantasy has flaws. Not a one of them has been perfect. I know that. Nobody expects perfection.

Final Fantasy is arguably never outdone when it comes to reinventing itself. Square, Squaresoft, Square Enix... they innovate in every Final Fantasy game they create. It's always something new, it's never the same.

You do realize that change isn't always a good thing, right? That being an "innovation" implies jack trout about its quality. George Lucas "innovated" when he produced "The Phantom Menace." Sometimes innovations turns out to be a big ol' pile of trout. Not every change is good.

Gamers who enjoy one Final Fantasy game might not enjoy another Final Fantasy game. We have so many previous Final Fantasy games that at the time of FFXIII's release, you had fans of twelve very different games with different stories, different characters, different leveling systems, different battle systems, different minigames, different worlds. At the time of FFXIII's release, more than ever, the fans of these very different games were able to communicate with each other online. The world is huge, now. Everyone has their opinions. When FFXIII was released, the people all were hoping for a game more like the one they enjoyed most from the previous series.

Yes, yes, subjectivity, blah blah, different, different, change, innovation, I get it.

FFXIII has a horrible storytelling. And that not an opinion. No subjectivity there. FFXIII has a boring and convoluted story. And isn't that kind of the point of a Final Fantasy, to have a compelling story? It's implied in the name.

What they got was Final Fantasy XIII. Like it or not, it was a different game. It had a different story, different characters, a different leveling system, a different battle system, different (if few) minigames, different worlds. Those who wanted FFVII got FFXIII. Those who wanted FFVI got FFXIII. Those who wanted FFX got FFXIII. It was a new game, and it has divided opinion just like the Final Fantasy games before it (VIII, X, XII, etc) - only now, more than ever, there are enough people online who could get together and rant about how it wasn't the game they wanted, and downgrade the rating to fit their rage at such an occurance. Final Fantasy XIII still got a decent rating compared to many games, though. Because it picked up new fans - FFXIII fans - along with those fans of previous FF's that were happy enough to see the game for what it was rather than for which previous FF it was not.

There were enough people online for FFX and FFXII too, so that point is utterly invalid. And anyway, if there are more people online in general, there are more people to rate it up just as much as there are more people to rate it down.

So in the world of blind devotion to gaming companies, "different" is a synonym of "good"?

In the end, Square Enix released a Final Fantasy game.

With FFXIV, they did the same, but they buggered it up because it was buggy and laggy as hell. These are things that are actually inexcusable - FFXIII had no bugs whatosever that I've known about.

This has become too much about FFXIII. If you can successfully defend FFXIII, you successfully defend Square and all of Final Fantasy. The debacle of FFXIV's initial release just proves the point that Square is in a bad place. As you say, inexcusable. And this discussion isn't even really about bugs or glitches or anything like that. Not having bugs does not make a game good. Games should at default not have bugs. All games. No excuses.

And I would argue that it isn't actually a Final Fantasy game. Why should I accept that just because Square calls it that, that's what it is? Squeenix doesn't remember what Final Fantasy means. They don't. I do, though.

Still, Square Enix - in the case of both games - innovated. They tried new things. Success or failure, they did what Call of Duty, Uncharted, Far Cry, Starcraft and others did not. They didn't take what they knew already worked in previous games and create more of the same. They made something new. They started from scratch and worked their way up, even creating a new engine for both games. Like it or not, Square Enix will do what very few other games in this industry do and try to shake things up.

Bulltrout. If they really want to "shake things up," then stop slapping "Final Fantasy" on everything they put out. If there's no central identity to the series, then it's pointless as a series. I don't understand how so many people just don't get that. I mean, I really really don't.

Also, in the past when they "innovated" from game to game, there was a natural progression, some things changed some didn't. There was a centering identity. For the most part, it was something a fan would intuit. Just feel. But if I had the energy I could prove it statistically, prove that FFXIII is less Final Fantasy than anything that came before it, and therefore, in the context of talking about the series, the worst of them. I started this once before and never finished. I'll get back on it.

People criticise Square Enix, but these same people also criticise the industry for a lack of innovation. Perhaps they need to consider exactly what they want out of the industry. More of the same, or something new? If you want more of the same, it's out there in bulk. If you want something new in an AAA title, you have to look to the few developers out there that have the money and the balls to create such a thing. Those developers include Square Enix.

Both. Neither. I just want good games. FFXIII isn't. FFXV might be, but still looks like it has the issue of being a further departure. Continuing to slap the name "Final Fantasy" on games that share with the series what, a couple enemies? Some spell names? Summons? If I can get myself to care enough, I'm going to attempt to find 5 modern games that are more "Final Fantasy" than Final Fantasy XIII.

Do I trust Square Enix? Like Spooniest quite rightly pointed out, I don't have to trust them, it's not about trust. If they make a game I don't like, it doesn't mean I'm going to not trust them. I mean, if one of you lot were to like a movie I thought was crap, that doesn't mean I'm going to think that all movies you like are crap. Likewise, if you like a movie I think is amazing, I'll bet that there is a movie out there that you like that I don't. These things happen. It's a matter of opinion.

Yes I do. I have to trust them. I give them money. I give them time and energy and money, so yes, it is about trust. I give them those things in the expectation of getting a good game in return.

Again, this fuss would not have been as massive if there was another game coming out in a year or so, and Final Fantasy is not a series that will do what other series do: Give you the same old trout with improved graphics, over and over again. Final Fantasy is a series where you should expect something different each time, and FFXIII gave us something different.

False comparison. Nobody wants Final Fantasy: Modern Warfare V. Square has always "innovated" with the Final Fantasy series, yes. But in the past it innovated well. Not every change was a success, but the majority were.

And in some ways they did put out the same old trout with improved graphics. For so long we got our Shivas, Leviathans, Ifrits, Bahamuts all over again but improved with better graphics and new animations and so forth. Perhaps you've forgotten (or never experienced) what that was like, to anticipate those things. It was the mix of new and familiar that made Final Fantasy so awesome. FFXIII is almost entirely JUST NEW, no familiar, and most of the newness of it isn't all that great, especially relative to everything else that's out now.

As for FFXV... and I'm not saying it will be crap, but I am saying that you should start playing the game with a different perspective for better potential enjoyment.

This isn't just about whether a game is good or not. There's two aspects to this "FF ending" idea:
1. Is Final Fantasy still quality?
2. Is Final Fantasy still Final Fantasy?

FFXIII is evidence (to me and a lot of other people) that the answer is no to both of those questions. What I can see of FFXV so far, I conclude (so far) that the answer to 2 is still no, but it's possible that we'll get back to 1 being yes again. If so, ultimately I wouldn't be as happy as if it were a true Final Fantasy, but a good game is a good game.

Chionos, if you really think FFXIII was a steaming pile of trout, then clearly you haven't been through the NES and 16-bit era where 1 in 8 games was literally unplayable yet somehow got through QA. There are vast logical chasms between a bad game and one that didn't do anything for you personally. If you really wanna go play FFII on the NES, be my guest, bro. Just don't blame me for calling certain vocal enclaves of the fanbase silly when they exaggerate their over-generalized complaints about FFXIII.

Au contraire mon frere. I've played every game in the series, and frequently replay all games, including nes and snes and gamecube titles. (including Mystic Quest). All very playable games. All enjoyable. FFXIII is the only FF I've ever truly had an issue with.

I'm not sure how the complaints are over-general, but it would take a book to lay out every single problem with FFXIII.

It wasn't a life changing game, it was a good game with a lot of great things going for it but I agree with you that I want that extra level of bliss that games like FFIX gave us. I guess I just don't qualify that as an existential crisis because a) that would be overly dramatic and b) I understand the difficulties Square, and Japan for that matter, have gone through.

I'm pretty sure me disliking a game and complaining about it in a forum devoted to the game doesn't qualify as an existential crisis. My life outside this thread's just fine. Thank you for your concern, though.

I understand their difficulties too. If they turn things around, great. I'm not rooting for their downfall. I'm just being honest about how I feel about them right now, in their current state.

[Bright Shield]

Final Fantasy XIII is a better video game than FFVI.

No, just no. VI is one of the most critically acclaimed RPGs of all time, and one of the most beloved by the FF fanbase. To even compare it to FF Tunnel XIII is a joke.

[Spooniest]

Final Fantasy XIII is a better video game than FFVI.

No, just no. VI is one of the most critically acclaimed RPGs of all time, and one of the most beloved by the FF fanbase. To even compare it to FF Tunnel XIII is a joke.

This whole thread has crossed the ridiculous line.

LUDICROUS SPEED...GO!!

[Wolf Kanno]

If you want to seriously sit here and dissect every FF entry with me so we can do a compare and contrast then by all means place your opening argument and let's get this show on the road

Final Fantasy XIII is a better video game than FFVI.

duty_calls.png

LOL, unfortunately, this just isn't the time or place (I'm also on my phone). All I'm saying is that while it wasn't life changing, I enjoyed XIII - it was pretty to look at, fun to play, and I thoroughly enjoyed the music and character chemistry. How can I call it anything but hyperbole when you start lecturing about internal Square politics, development hell, "push to 11" mandates and Vincent/Lucretia's abusive relationship? What does any of that have to do with XIII having fun combat and vibrant locations?

The combat always felt hands off, the locations were static and lifeless because you were always stuck on invisible rails, the cast are shallow carbon copies of better characters and XIII basically stole most of its ideas from Persona 3 and then left it in the hand of a 7-year -old who thinks Michael Bay is the greatest director ever to make it into an FF. I don't mind stealing ideas from other games but for gods sakes, at least give it a good spin, and don't get me started on the pacing and lack of anything else...

Iknow you're big into linear gameplay and cinematic set pieces since you play so man FPS games but it just doesn't work in RPG design and I would hope playing Oblivion would teach you that.

I just feel that you and BoB were so hard up for FF goodness you were completely unprepared and thus traumatized by the experience that is XIII and are simply suffering from Stockholm syndrome. Please Bolivar, BoB, let us help you.

[Loony BoB]

I just feel that you and BoB were so hard up for FF goodness you were completely unprepared and thus traumatized by the experience that is XIII and are simply suffering from Stockholm syndrome. Please Bolivar, BoB, let us help you.

Also a recent poll at EoFF had most people enjoying FFXIII's battle system. I do feel FFXIII had it's bad points, don't thing I'm blind to them, but I also really liked a lot of things about it and I know many others who feel similarly. I do feel that it was divisive, but the entire point of being divisive is that there are those that like it as well as those that dislike it. FFXIII fits into this 'divisive' thing pretty well. Still, I think FFII was a bad game and you probably don't, so...

[Wolf Kanno]

I just feel that you and BoB were so hard up for FF goodness you were completely unprepared and thus traumatized by the experience that is XIII and are simply suffering from Stockholm syndrome. Please Bolivar, BoB, let us help you.

Also a recent poll at EoFF had most people enjoying FFXIII's battle system. I do feel FFXIII had it's bad points, don't thing I'm blind to them, but I also really liked a lot of things about it and I know many others who feel similarly. I do feel that it was divisive, but the entire point of being divisive is that there are those that like it as well as those that dislike it. FFXIII fits into this 'divisive' thing pretty well. Still, I think FFII was a bad game and you probably don't, so...

The thing I would point out is that do you feel your would say the same thing about FFII had you played it back in the day when it was new and had little to compare it too? I mean FFII is actually quite popular in Japan and while I like FFII, I had to grow to like it myself. Then again BoB, you come across as an overly agreeable person who tries to always stay positive on everything. Even when you dislike something you seem apologetic about it as opposed to someone like myself who has no qualms shooting down a dissenting opinion.

[Bolivar]

Iknow you're big into linear gameplay and cinematic set pieces since you play so man FPS games but it just doesn't work in RPG design and I would hope playing Oblivion would teach you that.

I would actually argue that linear design and set pieces worked wonders in FFs II, IV, and VII-X. You can clearly trace the origin of XIII's design philosophy by going back to VII and the ideal of creating a game where every locale is unique and different from the last, breaking away from the swappable dungeon palettes which RPGs (and most games) are notorious for. This doctrine became more relevant than ever in the PS3 era, where the game was competing with the tech mastery of Naughty Dog, Infinity Ward, and Sony Santa Monica. Believe it or not, I was actually very skeptical and disappointed in everything I heard about XIII leading up to and following its release. When I finally got to play it myself, I soon recognized what it was really trying to do. When I stopped comparing it to past FFs, switching focus to its contemporaries instead, it unlocked the ability for me to appreciate the streamlining of combat (you say hands off) and showcasing how Square was still a dominant graphics and audio player after all these years, something they prided themselves on since the NES days before the series even began. It capitalized on that sexy PS3 AAA tour de force of non-obtrusive gameplay, particle effects and DVS surround sound. Sure, the combat and customization pales compared to the Gambit system and Sphere Grid (respectively) and the environments don't have the interaction that made the FFVII philosophy work. The story also drags towards the end and the lack of mini games further damages the pacing. But those are small qualms to me when the game was a resounding success for the core principles it sought to adhere to. I'm playing The Last of Us right now and it's a masterpiece but it's no less linear than FFXIII was. The dirty secret is, outside of world map illusions and endgame content, neither were most of the FF games.

I see you're starting to go into specific criticisms and again, I doubt your favorite games would last long if we started questioning what they borrowed from other tales, how well they pulled it off, or how shallow their characters really are. And therein lies the scariest dirty little secret of them all: XIII couldn't possibly have been as painful as you pretend it was. You just can't admit it because some of us remember how furious you were before they had announced little outside of the title logo.

I can show you the receipts.

[Psychotic]

You can't whitewash the failure of FFXIII to live up to the Final Fantasy name. You can call it "divisive", I call it a critical failure that has contributed heavily to Final Fantasy no longer being the #1 AAA gaming brand that it was in the previous console eras. Essentially Daniel, in a metaphor you can understand, Final Fantasy is Man United from when Fergie took over. A little bit unsure at first, will this work? Won't it? But you know what? It smurfing did. Took off. Time and time again it was reinvented in different eras and time and time again the cream rose to the crop. Final Fantasy XIII is the David Moyes era. Languishing in midtable, its turgid and stale format has been surpassed by many gaming franchises and series. "We're still relevant!" No. No you're not. You have to earn it back.

"I like it and I know some other people who like it, look at this example of people on the forums liking it" doesn't change a damn thing. The people who don't like it aren't even going to sign up to EoFF - EoFF isn't an unbiased sample, and that there is still so much negativity towards it here speaks volumes. The general gaming public have shunned it and wouldn't touch EoFF or other FF games with a bargepole because of it. It has the lowest GameRankings and Metacritic score for any new Final Fantasy title. You have to go all the way back to FFIII to find one with a lower metacritic score, and that was a remake of a 20 year old game. When has a Final Fantasy game director had to come out and defend the game against criticism? When has the president of Square-Enix responded to negative reviews of a Final Fantasy game? It's unprecedented.

No Final Fantasy game has ever been so "divisive" and being divisive is not something to aspire to in the first place.

[Spooniest]

No Final Fantasy game has ever been so "divisive" and being divisive is not something to aspire to in the first place.

What was that first law of media again? "Give the people what they want?"