What if FF as a series ended?

[chionos]

You can't say there was never a bad FF til FFXIII. It just happened that for you, FFXIII is bad.

Can too: There never was a bad FF till FFXIII.

Don't act as if there is some universal dislike for FFXIII because there really isn't.

Didn't say (or imply) it was universal. It's more than just me though. More than any other game in the history of Final Fantasy.

I have seen FF virgins play the game as their first FF and enjoy it. I know people who think it's a good game, I know people who think other FFs are bad games, I know other FF games have similar if not worse reviews/ratings. SE did the things that you say made you lose faith in games before FFXIII was released, yet you say you always had faith in SE until FFXIII.

I've only seen the opposite. From my experience with real life people who have played the game, FFXIII is basically Square's version of "The Phantom Menace." That's a mix of new players and longtime Square fans, longtime Final Fantasy fans.

Gonna have to quote myself from some way back...

Remember when FFVIII got lambasted by everyone and their uncle for being rubbish? Remember when FFX got the same treatment (by me, too, no less)? XII got a lot of criticism, too. Even FFVI fans are quick to lambast FFVII when given the opportunity. Modern gamers look back at games like FFII and FFIII with disbelief that they could be seen as good games.

I'm a modern gamer, and I don't. I have perspective. I don't think anyone who defends FFXIII could possibly have the correct perspective. FFXIII has better graphics than FFII, so it's a better game, yeah? Perspective, people.

Also, graphics don't mean trout if you don't care about what you're looking at. Real life has even better graphics, but I want to play a game I can enjoy, I want to see things worth looking at, otherwise I'll just check out the HD graphics of the real world.

Every Final Fantasy has flaws. Not a one of them has been perfect. I know that. Nobody expects perfection.

Final Fantasy is arguably never outdone when it comes to reinventing itself. Square, Squaresoft, Square Enix... they innovate in every Final Fantasy game they create. It's always something new, it's never the same.

You do realize that change isn't always a good thing, right? That being an "innovation" implies jack trout about its quality. George Lucas "innovated" when he produced "The Phantom Menace." Sometimes innovations turns out to be a big ol' pile of trout. Not every change is good.

Gamers who enjoy one Final Fantasy game might not enjoy another Final Fantasy game. We have so many previous Final Fantasy games that at the time of FFXIII's release, you had fans of twelve very different games with different stories, different characters, different leveling systems, different battle systems, different minigames, different worlds. At the time of FFXIII's release, more than ever, the fans of these very different games were able to communicate with each other online. The world is huge, now. Everyone has their opinions. When FFXIII was released, the people all were hoping for a game more like the one they enjoyed most from the previous series.

Yes, yes, subjectivity, blah blah, different, different, change, innovation, I get it.

FFXIII has a horrible storytelling. And that not an opinion. No subjectivity there. FFXIII has a boring and convoluted story. And isn't that kind of the point of a Final Fantasy, to have a compelling story? It's implied in the name.

What they got was Final Fantasy XIII. Like it or not, it was a different game. It had a different story, different characters, a different leveling system, a different battle system, different (if few) minigames, different worlds. Those who wanted FFVII got FFXIII. Those who wanted FFVI got FFXIII. Those who wanted FFX got FFXIII. It was a new game, and it has divided opinion just like the Final Fantasy games before it (VIII, X, XII, etc) - only now, more than ever, there are enough people online who could get together and rant about how it wasn't the game they wanted, and downgrade the rating to fit their rage at such an occurance. Final Fantasy XIII still got a decent rating compared to many games, though. Because it picked up new fans - FFXIII fans - along with those fans of previous FF's that were happy enough to see the game for what it was rather than for which previous FF it was not.

There were enough people online for FFX and FFXII too, so that point is utterly invalid. And anyway, if there are more people online in general, there are more people to rate it up just as much as there are more people to rate it down.

So in the world of blind devotion to gaming companies, "different" is a synonym of "good"?

In the end, Square Enix released a Final Fantasy game.

With FFXIV, they did the same, but they buggered it up because it was buggy and laggy as hell. These are things that are actually inexcusable - FFXIII had no bugs whatosever that I've known about.

This has become too much about FFXIII. If you can successfully defend FFXIII, you successfully defend Square and all of Final Fantasy. The debacle of FFXIV's initial release just proves the point that Square is in a bad place. As you say, inexcusable. And this discussion isn't even really about bugs or glitches or anything like that. Not having bugs does not make a game good. Games should at default not have bugs. All games. No excuses.

And I would argue that it isn't actually a Final Fantasy game. Why should I accept that just because Square calls it that, that's what it is? Squeenix doesn't remember what Final Fantasy means. They don't. I do, though.

Still, Square Enix - in the case of both games - innovated. They tried new things. Success or failure, they did what Call of Duty, Uncharted, Far Cry, Starcraft and others did not. They didn't take what they knew already worked in previous games and create more of the same. They made something new. They started from scratch and worked their way up, even creating a new engine for both games. Like it or not, Square Enix will do what very few other games in this industry do and try to shake things up.

Bulltrout. If they really want to "shake things up," then stop slapping "Final Fantasy" on everything they put out. If there's no central identity to the series, then it's pointless as a series. I don't understand how so many people just don't get that. I mean, I really really don't.

Also, in the past when they "innovated" from game to game, there was a natural progression, some things changed some didn't. There was a centering identity. For the most part, it was something a fan would intuit. Just feel. But if I had the energy I could prove it statistically, prove that FFXIII is less Final Fantasy than anything that came before it, and therefore, in the context of talking about the series, the worst of them. I started this once before and never finished. I'll get back on it.

People criticise Square Enix, but these same people also criticise the industry for a lack of innovation. Perhaps they need to consider exactly what they want out of the industry. More of the same, or something new? If you want more of the same, it's out there in bulk. If you want something new in an AAA title, you have to look to the few developers out there that have the money and the balls to create such a thing. Those developers include Square Enix.

Both. Neither. I just want good games. FFXIII isn't. FFXV might be, but still looks like it has the issue of being a further departure. Continuing to slap the name "Final Fantasy" on games that share with the series what, a couple enemies? Some spell names? Summons? If I can get myself to care enough, I'm going to attempt to find 5 modern games that are more "Final Fantasy" than Final Fantasy XIII.

Do I trust Square Enix? Like Spooniest quite rightly pointed out, I don't have to trust them, it's not about trust. If they make a game I don't like, it doesn't mean I'm going to not trust them. I mean, if one of you lot were to like a movie I thought was crap, that doesn't mean I'm going to think that all movies you like are crap. Likewise, if you like a movie I think is amazing, I'll bet that there is a movie out there that you like that I don't. These things happen. It's a matter of opinion.

Yes I do. I have to trust them. I give them money. I give them time and energy and money, so yes, it is about trust. I give them those things in the expectation of getting a good game in return.

Again, this fuss would not have been as massive if there was another game coming out in a year or so, and Final Fantasy is not a series that will do what other series do: Give you the same old trout with improved graphics, over and over again. Final Fantasy is a series where you should expect something different each time, and FFXIII gave us something different.

False comparison. Nobody wants Final Fantasy: Modern Warfare V. Square has always "innovated" with the Final Fantasy series, yes. But in the past it innovated well. Not every change was a success, but the majority were.

And in some ways they did put out the same old trout with improved graphics. For so long we got our Shivas, Leviathans, Ifrits, Bahamuts all over again but improved with better graphics and new animations and so forth. Perhaps you've forgotten (or never experienced) what that was like, to anticipate those things. It was the mix of new and familiar that made Final Fantasy so awesome. FFXIII is almost entirely JUST NEW, no familiar, and most of the newness of it isn't all that great, especially relative to everything else that's out now.

As for FFXV... and I'm not saying it will be crap, but I am saying that you should start playing the game with a different perspective for better potential enjoyment.

This isn't just about whether a game is good or not. There's two aspects to this "FF ending" idea:
1. Is Final Fantasy still quality?
2. Is Final Fantasy still Final Fantasy?

FFXIII is evidence (to me and a lot of other people) that the answer is no to both of those questions. What I can see of FFXV so far, I conclude (so far) that the answer to 2 is still no, but it's possible that we'll get back to 1 being yes again. If so, ultimately I wouldn't be as happy as if it were a true Final Fantasy, but a good game is a good game.

Chionos, if you really think FFXIII was a steaming pile of trout, then clearly you haven't been through the NES and 16-bit era where 1 in 8 games was literally unplayable yet somehow got through QA. There are vast logical chasms between a bad game and one that didn't do anything for you personally. If you really wanna go play FFII on the NES, be my guest, bro. Just don't blame me for calling certain vocal enclaves of the fanbase silly when they exaggerate their over-generalized complaints about FFXIII.

Au contraire mon frere. I've played every game in the series, and frequently replay all games, including nes and snes and gamecube titles. (including Mystic Quest). All very playable games. All enjoyable. FFXIII is the only FF I've ever truly had an issue with.

I'm not sure how the complaints are over-general, but it would take a book to lay out every single problem with FFXIII.

It wasn't a life changing game, it was a good game with a lot of great things going for it but I agree with you that I want that extra level of bliss that games like FFIX gave us. I guess I just don't qualify that as an existential crisis because a) that would be overly dramatic and b) I understand the difficulties Square, and Japan for that matter, have gone through.

I'm pretty sure me disliking a game and complaining about it in a forum devoted to the game doesn't qualify as an existential crisis. My life outside this thread's just fine. Thank you for your concern, though.

I understand their difficulties too. If they turn things around, great. I'm not rooting for their downfall. I'm just being honest about how I feel about them right now, in their current state.