What if FF as a series ended?

[Loony BoB]

What, by pointing out that I dislike some FF games? Psh. Many people have enjoyed FFXIII, some people just can't accept this and like to have a moan. To be fair, though, I did the same with FFX - although I don't think I ever felt the series was going to die because of it.

[Bright Shield]

But yeah, in the end, one "bad" game is not justification to denounce a series

I haven't loved a FF game since IX.

The FFVII compilation was pure rubbish, as was the XIII Saga. It wasn't just XIII itself Bob. The two sequels were horrid, as was anything related to FFVII.

It's not getting any better either.

XV looks like an action game to me.

I feel that Square is moving in the wrong direction. XV should be less Devil May Cry, and more Bravely Default...

[Loony BoB]

But yeah, in the end, one "bad" game is not justification to denounce a series

I haven't loved a FF game since IX.

The FFVII compilation was pure rubbish, as was the XIII Saga. It wasn't just XIII itself Bob. The two sequels were horrid, as was anything related to FFVII.

It's not getting any better either.

XV looks like an action game to me.

I feel that Square is moving in the wrong direction. XV should be less Devil May Cry, and more Bravely Default...

Sadly I think if you haven't liked X, XI, XII, XIII or XIV and don't like the look of XV... I think you have much more reason to feel the way you feel than those who simply dislike FFXIII. Sorry you feel that way, but I guess in your personal case, FF may just not be what it was. Sucks to hear you feel that way, though. I mean, wait, when you say you haven't loved one, have you liked one?

[The Man]

People didn't just dislike XIII, BoB. They also disliked its sequels and the Compilation of VII and the original release of FFXIV. I haven't played any of these so I can't evaluate for myself if they were justified in doing so, but regardless, people are basing this opinion on a lot more than just one game.

Personally, I haven't even felt interested in playing any of the games Square Enix have released in the series since FFXII. It used to be that the announcement of a new Final Fantasy game was something I looked forward to, but these days I have so little faith that the company will produce something I enjoy that I can't justify spending my money on it. A hallway simulator, sequels to a hallway simulator and sequels/prequels to a game that I felt needed neither just don't pique my interest.

And I still haven't played XII either, though that's mostly because I don't spend enough time gaming these days to justify picking up a game that will undoubtedly take me at least 100 hours to finish.

[Loony BoB]

...you have no faith in the company but haven't played any of the games they have released? Uhm. ._. What?

I would take people a lot more seriously about their dislike of FFXIII if they weren't just going "OMG EVERYTHING IS BAD NOT ONE THING IS GOOD IT'S ALL BAD" when that is on par with me when FFX got released. With retrospect I've been able to concede that it has it's good points. People who say "EVERYTHING SUCKS ABOUT THIS GAME" are not worth taking seriously, and it's mostly just a vocal few at EoFF that do this - well, of those that have actually played the games.

Crisis Core is almost universally liked, FFXIII-2 got excellent reviews despite it's awful ending. Lightning Returns had it's up and downs, but it showed that SE is certainly not running out of ideas (as did FFXIII-2). FFXIV has been revived and is now winning awards and getting touted as one of the greatest comebacks in gaming history. The series is so far from bad. It's just bad in the eyes of some people, and they happen to get pretty angsty and vocal about it because they loved the FFI-VI days more than the VII-XIII days. And if that's their bag, so be it, but I'm a little tired of the repeated claim that few people liked FFXIII when actually that's entirely untrue and some people just refuse to admit that actually, quite a lot of people liked it.

[The Man]

I've seen gameplay videos and read reviews. Nothing the company has done for quite some time has interested me, except Bravely Default. But I lack a 3DS, so I haven't played that either.

XIII-2 might have been a very good game, but the problem is, to properly understand it, you'll have to have played XIII, and that's an experience that a lot of people simply have no desire to go through.

Crisis Core seems to have been the only part of the Compilation that wasn't universally hated, but even then, it hasn't gotten anywhere near as glowing reviews as the games from Square's heyday. The general consensus seems to be "It's a passable game, but nowhere near as good as the original, and Genesis is a terrible character". And since the original didn't bowl me over that much in the first place, I don't really see any need to play a prequel.

I'm well aware that the relaunch of XIV has been quite successful, but the fact that Square Enix botched the initial launch as badly as they did does not inspire confidence that their future products will be good. We can't expect that they'll have the opportunity to revamp their future games as they did XIV.

I've been a fan of the series since before X came out and I haven't seen any game in the series be as widely reviled as XIII. Yes, it still has its defenders, but there are nowhere near as many of them as there are for any other games in the series (at least since maybe II).

[Loony BoB]

I dunno, XII doesn't have as many defenders as you'd think. EoFF has an above average number of FFXII fans and even then it's not a huge number. I think you might be surprised if you got all the FF Fans together. It'd be interesting to get a 'census' of FF fans, asking them which games they had played and which of those games they liked. I think the difference is that most people who like the game don't spend their time going around defending it, they just sit happy in knowing they liked it, and don't care about what XIII haters say.

Obviously I care to defend, but that's just me.

[Psychotic]

See again, your problem is you're viewing it as "What FF fans think". That is a totally biased sample. Even if there are FF fans that don't like FFXIII and are quite vociferous about it, the average FF player will have a higher view of FFXIII than an average gamer will. FF, in order to survive, needs to acquire new fans. Before you say it, yes, maintaining the existing fans - though I would argue they have failed to do this too but whatever - is important but it's not a viable strategy for survival. People grow up, get older, have family responsibilities, stop having time for gaming. Eventually you'll lose all those fans. Indeed, look at EoFF - we lose members as people grow up and have less time.

Outside of FF fans, your average gamer has nothing but contempt for FFXIII. The same ones that might say FFVII or FFX was a great game.

[Loony BoB]

Actually I've spent this morning looking up what people who played FFXIII as their first FF thought about FFXIII, and the results are... pretty good. I also looked up what reddit people thought of FFXIII (reddit people are the young kids, right?) and the results aren't nearly as bad as what you see at EoFF.

[metagloria]

Just going to poke my head in to say...

XIV rules.
XIII was fine. Not great, but fine.
XIII-2 and Lightning Returns were even better. Heck, they were even a little... *gasp*... innovative.
Bravely Default has proven that somebody at Square still knows how to make a good "classic" JRPG.

I'm not throwing the series down the toilet yet. I think XV looks like a fun trip, and I'm praying that XVI is the next XII, combining some of the XII, XIV, and BD teams to make an ultimate next-gen open-world job-system-based sidequest-heavy FF.

[deepdoop]

I'd be sad because a world without Final Fantasy would seem weird to me, but I'm a more casual FF fan these days anyway. I've been playing since the first one, but I stick mostly to the core, numbered games in the franchise and don't spend a lot of time with sequels, prequels and spin-offs.

It would suck partially because, love it or hate it, Square does try different things with each new entry in the main series. I don't think they get enough credit for that these days because there seems to be a hate for Square at this point.

When I think about it though, I haven't felt the magic for a Final Fantasy since 10. I didn't play 11, hated 12, didn't like 13, enjoyed 14 (as an MMO it's great, I'm still not entirely sold on FF as an MMO though), and 15 is the first entry in years where I've been excited... because I am hyping myself up. I want to give Final Fantasy a real go again.

So yeah, I'd be said. The series was important in my life and I still have respect for it.

[chionos]

But yeah, in the end, one "bad" game is not justification to denounce a series, it's just the time between that is exaggerating your negative opinions. Lambast the time, not the series. LOOK INTO YOUR HEARTS, YOU KNOW IT TO BE TRUE.

"it's just"

You're dismissing a very significant gripe as if it's nothing. A company taking a long time to make something that turns out to be horrible is a lot worse than a company that makes the same crap in a lot less time. You can still convince yourself to have faith that if the company that took too little time just spent some more time on the next thing, it could be better, especially if they've done it before. It's not like I want it to be this way.

It's not like I just hate on games for no reason at all. I've supported Square for as long as some EoFF members have been alive. I've introduced my fair share of people to the Final Fantasy series. I've given them my money time and again (and will in the future). Furthermore, I have extremely eclectic tastes, and can enjoy and even love almost anything. I'm not going to dig into the game's flaws again because BoB is utterly blind to them, but suffice it to say, I tried, I wanted to like the game, I tried to make myself, I looked for anything I could to justify all of its inadequacies and flaws, but I couldn't. I'm not just a hater. It's legitimately the worst FF. It has the worst characters and the worst writing. The end.

And it's not like the FFXIII hate is the only issue, either. SE managed to turn FFXIV around, but the initial blunder is still cause for a little bit of concern. I don't think I need to reiterate the Fabula Nova Crystallis mess, the FFXV frustrations, the rumors of internal strife, the lack of transparency. For instance, when, if ever, are we going to hear about what the deal is with Yatsui? Does his departure mean even more delays? Perhaps not, but Square does NOTHING to dispel rumors or to keep its fan base happy. That was annoying but not as much of an issue back in the day when they developed games in a timely manner. Now that they don't (because they're too busy putting out--mainly--unnecessary sequels), they're going to have to learn how to be more vocal, more transparent, or they're going to alienate a lot of their fans and they're going to lose out on a lot of opportunities to gain new ones. That's just the facts and the truth of it.

It's not like we're saying that Square is going to lose all of its fans, and have to shut down the series because nobody at all buys them. That won't ever happen.

But that's not the only situation that would end Final Fantasy. All it would take would be the bigwigs at Square deciding that the energy and resources they put into the FF series would be better and more profitably used elsewhere. For now, the name alone still carries enough weight to add profitability. As other games come out which are better than anything Square has put out for years (and you've got to admit that even if you like FFXIII, even if you think it's objectively a good game, there are much better games being put out by other companies), and if Square continues to blunder around and alienate even a relatively small portion of their main fan base then, sadly, Final Fantasy is not long for this cruel, new world.

It's not a prediction, but it's a possibility. That's all any of us are pointing out. I think all of us "haters" acknowledge that Square is capable of turning it around. They have the resources, they have the history, they have a strong fan base, so it's possible. But it's not smurfing inevitable like some of you seem to think. Just because they've turned it around in the past does not mean they will now. There are different people in charge than there were then, or different people in different positions. Square isn't the same company it has always been. It has changed internally. So blind faith is rather silly.

In the end, I'll continue to buy games until they prove to me they've lost it. Presently I just suspect they have. To be honest, I hoped to hear a little better defense of Square and Final Fantasy. I would love to be convinced that I'm wrong. But even if I'm right, it's not like I've given up on them yet.

If FFXV sucks, though...woe be unto you.

[VeloZer0]

1) I think SE has more or less been in a downward spiral since the merger (in terms of game quality)
2) BoB is right in that using FF13 as being indicative of anything is poor logic.

Now, I have just about given up hope on SE. But that isn't because FF13, that is because of FF10-13 and the FF7 compilation. If you look at the last decade you can clearly see a trend that I don't like any part of.

Bob is also absolutely right about the wait time exacerbating the letdown of FF13 to a lot of fans. If we had two numbered entries since it's release we would probably feel quite different right now. I though FF8 was terrible and if I was left sitting with that for several years before FF9 came out it would probably be a completely different story.

So using FF13 as a microcosm to illustrate the terminus of SE's fall is one thing, describing it as indicative of a fall is another. (For the record I think that FF13 is on the same level of quality as FF10 and FF12. Not terrible but not good either.).

[The Man]

I don't think anyone's using FFXIII as indicative of the terminus of Square Enix' fall. They seem to me to be saying that it's simply indicative that the quality of the series has declined substantially.

I'm on a lot of message boards besides just this one and the overall opinion of FFXII is much higher than it is of FFXIII. It received much better critical reviews as well.

[Bright Shield]

Sadly I think if you haven't liked X, XI, XII, XIII or XIV and don't like the look of XV... I think you have much more reason to feel the way you feel than those who simply dislike FFXIII. Sorry you feel that way, but I guess in your personal case, FF may just not be what it was. Sucks to hear you feel that way, though. I mean, wait, when you say you haven't loved one, have you liked one?

I didn't hate X or XII, but I wasn't really a fan either. I blame X for the shift in linearity, and XII always reminded me of an MMO. Still, they have their strong points.

The XIII saga and The VII Compilation were just bad...