So, BoB, your arguments seem to be:
1) It doesn't matter than more than 90% of sexualized imagery is of women, because sometimes women think men are sexy.
2) It's okay to sexually objectify women, full stop, as much as we'd like, because people like to feel sexy themselves. Sexual objectification is no different, value-wise, than being a sexual subject.
Why are you so bent on ignoring culture and context? Cidney doesn't exist in a vacuum.
I dunno Vivi, those three dudes I mentioned get their shirts off and show off their abs or even drop their pants and show off their butts and girls go "ooh" and that's what the girls tell me. I'm just thinking about guys I know girls do consider to be sex objects in one way or another and I'm telling you that the guys get their shirts off and the girls love it. And that's okay.
Do the dude characters in video games look like them sometimes? Sure. Do they show off abs? Sure. Are they also considered to be highly sexualised enough to make a fuss? Not nearly as much in my experience. I don't know about these female-audience dating sims because quite frankly I don't know any females that play them and tell me about it afterwards. I can only go by what the ladies say.
And no, the actors I mentioned aren't insane bodybuilders, but they are people who are sexualised by females. Are the dudes in FFXIV, FFXII or otherwise insane bodybuilders? No. But they are sexualised, unless you think making a man attractive going by what most females find attractive to be nothing to do with sexualising in which case there are some weird double standards going down here and I don't know how to get further into it.
Why are Cidney's boobs hanging out? To sexualise her. I've already conceded that it's sexualising a girl and I already stated I don't mind that. I don't mind if they sexualise a guy but apparently that is something that is impossible to do going by your logic, either that or there are a lot of guys being sexualised anyway because, as I say, all these dudes in FFXIV are already covering the various bases - we have the emo teeny guy with the slick hair and moody look, we have the shirt-open dude, we have guy who looks stereotypically nerdy-yet-handsome, we have the fancypants metrosexual kinda guy, we have the manly man with stubble and scars, we've got the lot.
If none of them are sexualised then apparently it's damned near impossible to sexualise men, and I think that's absurd.
Nobody in this game is wearing appropriate clothing. Nobody. This is the norm for Final Fantasy games.
Regarding the hundreds of years of history and all that: I get that there were things that happened before I was alive but that's not my fault nor is it my problem. Blunt, but 100% true. I'm not the kind of guy that believes in changing his ways to be biased towards either gender because of what people did before I was born.
Regarding how many dudes have a shirt on at a beach and how many girls don't: That's personal choice, man. If they want to wear something different the power is with them to do so. Don't blame me for culture or social choices, it's not my fault. But girls like to wear bikinis, great. Guys like to wear trunks, fine. I don't wear a t-shirt at the beach very often, provided it's hot, but yeah. My choice. I wear a t-shirt if I'm feeling the chill, definitely. Danielle would too. No harm done. It's practical.
Is it a problem to sexualise video game characters for no other reason than to sexualise them? Personally, no. I don't think it's a problem. Is it a problem if it's done all the time? Yeah, sure. But I don't think girls are made to look that way all the time in Final Fantasy, certainly no more with the dudes. Both wear inappropriate clothing nearly all the time. Often involving a complete lack of coverage of vital organs. If there is one thing that Square Enix is good for, it's dishing the stupidity to men just like it dishes the stupidity to the women. So be it - they know what will drive sales and it's a business.
Again, I think you should be more interested in changing people than should be in changing attire of ladies in video games. Unless, of course, you want all attire to become reasonable in video games, in which case you should stop treating women like they are the only ones who suffer from it. Well... the only ones who suffer from it in Final Fantasy. We all know how gender biased it gets in other video game series, it's a rather famous thing. Still, even then, if there is a market for it then I'm not gonna be the guy that tells a company they aren't allowed to sex up their characters for their target demographic.
She's a mechanic and she's dressed stupidly for the job for the sake of sexual appeal. Guys are going to be in the middle of a war, in close-combat, with leather jackets and open shirts. Makes no sense either way. They're both being created this way to look cool or sexy, depending on who is looking at them. I know a lot of girls out there that might look at her and go "Oh, she is cute." Others will go "This is a terrible sexist crime." If Final Fantasy resorted to realism for females but not males, would that be more or less sexist?
I get the impression this is all down to her being a mechanic and therefore people are waving their "OMG now we can declare them sexist because her skin would burn!" when I've seen a number of shirtless guys in Final Fantasy history facing up to a hell of a lot more dangers than toxic gases, and nobody ever blinked because, well, they're dressed for power... right? Same for girls, of course. They face those dangers in bikini tops in FFX-2, apparently.
It could be a culture issue, it could be a social issue, but as for myself, I don't mind fictional characters being shown to be sexy because they are in a fantasy world where bullets, swords and toxic chemicals used by car mechanics are all things that do not harm one so easily.
Do it for all of them, or do it for none of them. You want the girls dressed appropriately, the guys should get the same run.
Personally, again, I don't give a damn so long as I don't go around treating actual people like nothing but sex objects, be it just one gender or otherwise. That is something I see as a legitimate problem.
It reminds me of people who consider porn and hentai to be things that should be illegal. If a company wants to sex something up, that's their choice and their choice alone. I personally enjoy seeing attractive people on my TV without being aroused by them or for them to be partaking in some kind of sexual activity. I think this is okay. It doesn't make me treat people any worse. I would never in my life expect either gender to dress like people do in Final Fantasy video games if they were in a hazardous environment. But thankfully, fiction, fantasy, etc.
Sometimes any gender thinks any character of any gender is sexy. 90%? I don't know about that. I do think that female characters are, in Final Fantasy history, designed to be physically attractive to a fairly equal rate to that of males. How much sexualising is done is down to the individual. If females just happen to sexualise males less in general, do we have to start making more females physically unattractive in a game compared to males?Originally Posted by Shlup
No. It's not. I never said that. I said it's okay to sexualise females as much as one likes in a fictional environment. I've never said it's okay to do it full stop and I've mentioned before that I don't think it's okay to treat actual people as sex objects, because they are actual people.2) It's okay to sexually objectify women, full stop, as much as we'd like, because people like to feel sexy themselves. Sexual objectification is no different, value-wise, than being a sexual subject.
Let's not put words in my mouth, I'm only talking about fiction here, as I've said a few times in this post and before it, too.
Bow before the mighty Javoo!
You know you can love something and still criticize it, right? I see women on this very forum criticizing Lara Croft because she's more aimed at male audiences than female.
Men can be sexualized, but let's not pretend that whatever sexualiazation men may face is anywhere near as bad as women has been, and are continuing to be objectified. The reason this happen in our media is because it happens in real life, it's a reflection on our society.
And if you want to argue fantasy, there is nothing fantasy centric about Cid's outfit to begin with. Her outfit is a standard mechanic suit with one obvious exception. You can make up fantasy clothes without breasts sticking out of it, or any of the other BS clothes that's been designed for the sole purpose to excite the player. Which is always assumed to be male by default.
Vivi has already covered the difference between male power fantasy and sexualiazation a lot better than I could.
Absolutely, I get that, but she won female fans over in a big way. Huge. She drove up a lot of criticism but I'll be damned if she didn't increase the number of females playing video games. I'm not sure what you lot make of that, though.
On a sidenote, it also depends on what you think of when you're talking about 'fantasy'. I meant it in more ways than one.I'm not saying full on sexual fantasy, but a hot mechanic girl? I'm down with that. I'm sure girls have often seen guys with their shirts off when dealing with cars in the media, and nobody has blinked.
Again, this is all down to what you see as sexualising. Look up any article on what physique females prefer and you'll find it's pretty much directly on par with a large number of male video game characters. There's a lot of ways to look at this, really. Perhaps females are less likely to let people know that they sexualise males. Perhaps females are less likely to sexualise males in general due to just generally not finding males as physically 'sexy', even at their prime, as a female can be according to men. There's a lot to mull over there, but I think you are right when you say it's a reflection on our society - but in more ways than you might initially intend to mean.Men can be sexualized, but let's not pretend that whatever sexualiazation men may face is anywhere near as bad as women has been, and are continuing to be objectified. The reason this happen in our media is because it happens in real life, it's a reflection on our society.
Always assumed to be someone who finds that kind of female attractive, you mean. And that goes for girls and guys alike. But think about it carefully now: How would you create a fully sexualised man? What do women want to see if they are sexualising a guy? In my experience of female reactions to male characters, it involves...And if you want to argue fantasy, there is nothing fantasy centric about Cid's outfit to begin with. Her outfit is a standard mechanic suit with one obvious exception. You can make up fantasy clothes without breasts sticking out of it, or any of the other BS clothes that's been designed for the sole purpose to excite the player. Which is always assumed to be male by default.
- Either a manly, rugged face or a really pretty face (Final Fantasy does both of these).
- A Brad Pitt / Hugh Jackman style body. Maybe Christian Bale when he's buffed up a bit. This involves clearly defined chest and abdominal muscles as well as strong looking arms. But not body-builder levels, they don't want that - they don't want chubby, they don't want over the top, they want inbetween - but still prefer muscular.
- Shirt off, for the above mentioned reasons.
- Bulge size is unimportant, but any kind of clothing that compliments a nice butt seems to go down well.
- If clothed, jackets, t-shirts and jeans tend to be the way to go.
- Hair can go any way. Some prefer bald guys, some prefer floppy hair, some prefer styled/spiked up hair, some prefer long hair.
- Some girls prefer a scar here or there, particularly if it's either subtle or on the chest or something.
In the end, I think most Final Fantasy males fit these sexualised images of men.
Bow before the mighty Javoo!
That's....kind of a screwed up thing to say, dude. Women should do whatever the hell they want wrt clothing.
You guys all know that BoB was being sarcastic when he said that, right?
I just figured it out LOL sorry BoB. I'm leaving my post there for posterity though
It's funny because usually I'm the one pointing out people's sarcasm detectors failing. How the tables have turned...
Final Fantasy is full of half-naked or hot stereotypical anime males that "everyone" loves. Also you can make an outfit or other items look totally normal like the mechanic outfit and still make it a part of the "fantasy rules".
I've already posted a source for that claim, so I have to say I'm more than a little insulted that you'd question me on it; it makes me feel like you really just don't care about any of the points I'm trying to make. I can give you a litany of examples for how the sexual objectification of women 1) far outpaces the sexual objectification of men, and 2) affects gender equality in negative ways, with consequences for both genders. Apparently you're just going to ignore them because you don't "feel" that this is a problem. Fictional characters both reflect and reinforce society's values.90%? I don't know about that.
We could maybe consider making the range of female body types comparable to the range of male body types. Men can be fit, fat, old, short, hulks... Women are almost always fit, young, and very often excessively busty. You are fully aware that no one's saying to get rid of attractive people; people are saying every single girl being young and busty is getting really smurfing old.If females just happen to sexualise males less in general, do we have to start making more females physically unattractive in a game compared to males?
I've used the character design for Overwatch
as an example before. Look at the range of body types and ages for male characters. They're short, tall, muscular, fat, young, and old. The women are young, slim, and busty. Every single one. And please come back at me with the "But men made this game for men and that's just the status quo for how men want women to be so it's okay!" Because smurf you.
You may dismiss an avalanche of examples because "everyone likes to look at pretty people," but as I said, the consequences of valuing women based on their looks and sexualizing every smurfing female character are far reaching. I've posted a study that illustrates one major example, and a video that lists many more examples. I can continue to list examples until I'm blue in the face. You don't get to dismiss this as "but what's wrong with liking to look at attractive people"? I like to look at attractive people too; it's why I don't watch British TV shows. But the gap between how men and women are treated is wide; you would have to ignore thousands of studies in order to believe otherwise. Please tell me you want more studies--I will drown you in studies, mothersmurfer.
And don't BS me about the differences in swim wear being a simple matter of personal choice; that's being purposefully dense. Women are expected to cover their breasts because "sexual" (and illegal to show in many places). In other cultures, you'll get laughed at for thinking breasts are sexual because they're "for babies." In yet other cultures you'll get rocks thrown at you for having your shoulders covered because "sexual." This is not an issue men in any culture that I'm aware of deal with on any level.
Hmmm, your joke detector must be broken. You know, Cidney could probably fix it for ya...Oh wait, her cleavage prohibits her from doing anything useful....Are you seriously implying that the only reason this would be irksome to someone is out of jealousy?
To Shlup,
No one here is saying that women are not sexually objectified more than men, but i believe that 90% thing is just BS!. Did you not watch Magic Mike? well neither did I b/c Matthew McConaughey is a joke as an actor, but I have Zero problem with someone making/watching that movie.
Secondly, why is your criticism's not consistent? You say you have no problem w/ Tifa, but Cidney's outfit is no more gratuitous than Tifa's huge chest, Lulu, Yunalesca, etc. Why does open cleavage make it worse? As a man, I see no difference(in fact, i find Tifa's outfit WAY HOTTER). But just so were clear, I think Tifa is great character, first, and a great rack, second. I hope Cidney turns out to be the same.
Humans are sexual creatures(or i am anyways, maybe some of you are more highly evolved than me), and people are always going to sexualize each other to some degree or another.
There have been a vocal minority of ppl saying she looks like a bimbo/slut, and i really don't understand it.
I want to contribute to this thread with this picture and caption.
You mad bro?
Apparently, I have been declared banished.
I think the difference might be Tifa at least had a shirt on and it wasn't open down to her bellybutton for the sole purpose of showing off her goods. Her goods are big enough that they get put on display regardless. And granted, its fiction, so it didn't have to be that way regardless. But supposing she's a real person, at least she tried to put clothes on like a normal person. This girl is designed to look deliberately like she's unzipped just to show things off. Which, again, its fiction, so that's certainly the point. But I think the creators have the capability of being more tasteful these days
I think my big issue is that I am a man with sexual desires, but I don't need a game company pandering to the more primal side of me that I barely even pay any attention to. It's insulting to presume that the only way to get me to pay attention to a female characters is to shove her boobs in my face. Or if that's not what they're trying to do, then the only other explanation is that they don't think they made her likable enough so they substitute quality with boobs. It's like a substance of style thing. If all they're going to do is show style, I presume its a compensation thing, and she may not have substance. Or if she has substance, why parade her boobs out like they're pandering to cavemen who only think about sex
End of the story is that I am obviously not the main demographic they are aiming this game at. I can accept that, and I hope to still find a lot to enjoy it. Like I said earlier, this will not ruin the experience by itself. But I hope its not a sign of other things that they didn't put much thought into and try to overcompensate for..
If it makes you feel better, I laughed.
And I care so much more about what you "believe" than I care about actual research done by professionals in the field. I'm glad you can just be "smurf science, reality is based on my feelings!" but I am not in a similar boat.
And it was approximately 96%.
Thank you for one counter example. I'm... proven wrong by this in what way? Though I can't speak to its content because I didn't see it.
I've already addressed this. Sexualization is not black-and-white. It's not that everything must be sexual objectification or none of it is. I do have criticisms of Tifa. I like Tifa, and I'll probably like Cidney, but Tifa's breasts are far too large for her to be bouncing around without severe back problems, and her skirt isn't really practical for fighting. She's not a mechanic though--she owns a bar, so her outfit doesn't make active non-sense for her profession. Though if someone disliked Tifa entirely for the aforementioned reasons I wouldn't think they were insane.
Cidney's outfit I have a problem with because, as I've said several times, her outfit makes active non-sense for her profession, no male Cids are sexualized, and sexual objectification of women already far outpaces that of men so continuing to perpetuate that at the first opportunity is smurfing irritating.
Of course you think Tifa has a great rack. That's why they gave her boobs of an unhealthy size--for you. For your pleasure.
Again, sexualization isn't black-and-white, so telling me I'm "inconsistent" for viewing completely different things differently doesn't hold water.
Yes, and no one's saying that's not ever okay. In fact, I promoted the idea that, ideally, people would be treated as sexual subjects most of the time and sexual objects some of the time. I apologize if my complaint wasn't clear, so I'll try to state it very plainly here: Men and women are not treated anywhere near the same in regards to sexualization. Women are objectified more often than not, and at a rate far greater to that of men. Is the solution to sexualize men more? To make women less attractive? Maybe a little bit of both. Or maybe we just stop and think "Gee, we're making a character that's a mechanic. How about we dress her in something that a mechanic would wear?"
You know exactly why people are saying that (though I don't subscribe to slut shaming). You will not convince me that you're that dense. She's wearing a toddler's jacket over E-cup breasts, hot pants, and thigh boots. To work with machinery. Do yourself a favor and stop pretending to be oblivious to obvious things just because you also happen to enjoy looking at it. You don't have to feel guilty for enjoying looking at a sex object, you just also have to recognize the issues that come alone with that kind of blatant and ridiculous sexualization.
Shlup posts source. You simply state the claim is BS with no sources of your own.
You don't seem to understand how a debate works.
Off topic, but you should really watch some of his more recent, and highly acclaimed, roles. Dude has chops.well neither did I b/c Matthew McConaughey is a joke as an actor
When did she say she has no problem with those? Did I miss it or is staying on topic considered tacit endorsement of characters that aren't really being directly discussed now? Inquiring minds want to know.Secondly, why is your criticism's not consistent? You say you have no problem w/ Tifa, but Cidney's outfit is no more gratuitous than Tifa's huge chest, Lulu, Yunalesca, etc.
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