Her potentially being a well written character is just more reason why her outfit shouldn't have been designed that way. It hurts her character more than compliments it.
Resident Critic
Her potentially being a well written character is just more reason why her outfit shouldn't have been designed that way. It hurts her character more than compliments it.
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Administrator
You could probably say the same about Gladiolus. Say what you like, there is no profession other than "male model" that requires his attire, and his job is supposed to be 'shield to the Noctis family'. Shield? Guy doesn't even wear a vest. xDOriginally Posted by ToriJ
Also, just found out something interesting which might further explain the attire of various characters in this game.
I guess we should expect fashionable costumes for fashion stores and nothing but fashionable costumes for fashion stores. I expect with the limited number of females that pretty much every female will be dressed by Roen.
Bow before the mighty Javoo!
Resident Critic
You can, if you want to continue to miss the point that's been laid out in this thread time and time again. But a woman is more likely to be judged by their clothes than a man will ever be, but if it will get you to stop mentioning him.You could probably say the same about Gladiolus. Say what you like, there is no profession other than "male model" that requires his attire, and his job is supposed to be 'shield to the Noctis family'. Shield? Guy doesn't even wear a vest. xD
Gladiolus, button up your goddamn shirt!
Seeing that America doesn't appear to be much better than Japan in this area I fail to see how my criticism falls on wanting to convert an entire culture to my own. This whole debate happened because the Colonel said boobs, so people who liked the outfit ran to its defense and argued with anyone who dared to criticize it, as is the case every time a topic like this comes up.And a fine smurfing point it is, indeed.That's the smurfing point.
This is perhaps tangential, but at what point does fighting discrimination encounter ethnocentrism? Don't strain too hard on this; it's a dodgy ethical question no matter how you look at it.
Other cultures in the world have not seen fit to follow the progressive path of allowing women free reign to decide things for themselves and speak their minds. As abhorrent as it is to me, I just don't jive with the idea that it's my culture's sworn duty to change another culture to be more like mine.
Who would that culture be, if I changed it into something more like my own? Is it right for me to shame that culture for having different gender standards than my own?
The whole thing just seems muddy and full of contradictions to me.
Last edited by Ayen; 12-22-2014 at 12:22 PM.
Banned
Well, I didn't say "at what point does ethnocentrism negate fighting for discrimination," I said "at what point does fighting discrimination encounter ethnocentrism?" What is the relationship between these two concepts?
Resident Critic
Hell if I know. Guess you can encounter it if the sexism in your own culture is one day abolished and you start looking your nose down on other cultures that hasn't done the same, like America is likely to do on the day it happens. Or like the rest of the world does to America on... pretty much everything.Well, I didn't say "at what point does ethnocentrism negate fighting for discrimination," I said "at what point does fighting discrimination encounter ethnocentrism?" What is the relationship between these two concepts?
You know what? To me, that's a far more justifiable reason. We can never expect the fashion industry to get any more progressive. The male/female ratio is ridiculous there too, but they are quite transparent about objectifying men as frequently as they can. So at least it's a money and promotional issue, rather than some crusty old Japanese suits saying "Here's a female character... and now HERE'S HER BOOBS!"Also, just found out something interesting which might further explain the attire of various characters in this game.
This also has relevance to the Tedtalk Shulp cited. Most the images Ms. Heldman's used a examples of sexualy objectified women seem to be coming from fashion magazines. Now I might be wrong here, but if i'm not mistaken those are majority women in those editorial rooms deciding what goes into those magazines, which are mainly marketed towards women.You know what? To me, that's a far more justifiable reason. We can never expect the fashion industry to get any more progressive. The male/female ratio is ridiculous there too, but they are quite transparent about objectifying men as frequently as they can. So at least it's a money and promotional issue, rather than some crusty old Japanese suits saying "Here's a female character... and now HERE'S HER BOOBS!"Also, just found out something interesting which might further explain the attire of various characters in this game.
And to the people saying, "Cid's outfit doesn't look like a mechanic outfit", I say yes it does. It looks like a sexy mechanic outfit. It's almost like this game is a "Fantasy based on reality". hmm why does that sound familiar?
It's Final Fantasy! It literally has Fantasy in the title. And like Bob said previously, most character's in FF are portrayed as beautiful(except for villains, of course, who are probably disproportionately older, white-men.)
And then their's deviant.art, where there are some truly great artist(and people) who often do something very natural......... They depict our beloved FF character's in very sexually explicit ways. Are they wrong for doing this? Should we all apologize for our sex drives now?
I still find Cid's outfit tame compared to other character's outfits, but yet I've never heard this level of criticism for those character's. Is her outfit gratuitous? sure. But is it egregious? nope. fairly consistent with the rest of the title's, IMO. Everyone on this thread knew what to expect when it comes to these games.
Last edited by Hannibal_Khan; 12-22-2014 at 06:31 PM.
Banned
Name one universally positive, 100% non-exploitative female role model in the Final Fantasy series.
Good luck.
Resident Critic
That's the smurfing point.
She has no actual relevance to the plot anyway. Hajime Tabata said that already.
Banned
And a fine smurfing point it is, indeed.That's the smurfing point.
This is perhaps tangential, but at what point does fighting discrimination encounter ethnocentrism? Don't strain too hard on this; it's a dodgy ethical question no matter how you look at it.
Other cultures in the world have not seen fit to follow the progressive path of allowing women free reign to decide things for themselves and speak their minds. As abhorrent as it is to me, I just don't jive with the idea that it's my culture's sworn duty to change another culture to be more like mine.
Who would that culture be, if I changed it into something more like my own? Is it right for me to shame that culture for having different gender standards than my own?
The whole thing just seems muddy and full of contradictions to me.
As uncomfortable a point this is to agree with, Spooniest isn't wrong. It's worth remembering that Square Enix is a primary Japanese company, and Japanese cultural norms are far from similiar to western ones - A lot of the stuff that's regarded as a-okay over there still freaks us out for the most part. But who are we to argue their values are plain wrong?And a fine smurfing point it is, indeed.That's the smurfing point.
This is perhaps tangential, but at what point does fighting discrimination encounter ethnocentrism? Don't strain too hard on this; it's a dodgy ethical question no matter how you look at it.
Other cultures in the world have not seen fit to follow the progressive path of allowing women free reign to decide things for themselves and speak their minds. As abhorrent as it is to me, I just don't jive with the idea that it's my culture's sworn duty to change another culture to be more like mine.
Who would that culture be, if I changed it into something more like my own? Is it right for me to shame that culture for having different gender standards than my own?
The whole thing just seems muddy and full of contradictions to me.
Ultimately, whatever stances the Japanese have re: Sexualisation are mostly their own to worry about. We can voice our disagreements (and yes, I do disagree with Cidney's clothing choice like pretty much everyone else in this topic) as much as we like, but they're not obliged to change them because us Westerners said so. You could argue it makes sense from a business standpoint to discourage female sexualisation, but I don't readily have access to, say, US/Japan sales figures to draw that kinda conclusion myself.
Again, not the easiest point to make or agree with, but I attended an anthropology class recently and it really got me thinking about issues like ethnocentrism.
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Administrator
I'm assuming by "non-exploitative" you mean "covers up legs, covers up boobs, doesn't wear skintight gear and is generally a sweet person"? And are using their default attire, not including fanart, etc.
In which case (do forgive me if some of them are actually poor role models, I haven't played all games), at least surely some of these must apply: White Mage, Refia, Porom, Leonora, Calca, Brina, Lenna, Faris, Krile, Aeris, the female Turks, Quistis, Freya, Yuna (FFX), various FFXI characters, Penelo, Lightning, Agrias.
EDIT: As for "Is it right for me to shame that culture for having different gender standards than my own?" - reword that to "Is it right for me to shame that culture for having gender discrimination?" and the answer is yes, because no person should be discriminated against because of their gender without a damned good reason (eg. sporting events, bathrooms, that kind of thing - and even then you could argue further on whether it's appropriate).
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Banned
It begs the question: what is the definition of a positive female role model that we are working from?
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Administrator
Indeed. Really, being a role model should only come from their words and actions - not what they wear. Because no woman should be judged on her clothing (nor man, for that matter). So long as you're a good person, it's all gravy.
Bow before the mighty Javoo!
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